Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Falcon 50ex

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
I have flown with LegacyDriver and he does a very nice job. If he says the Legacy is much easier than 50 i believe him. For him. Every pilot is as different as these airplanes and arguing the point is a very arbritary and futile point. I have to admit, I like the 50 as well, but simply not as much as my previous airplane. When it boils down, LD comes from a plane based off an airliner and has 1996 technology as opposed to a plane based on 1970s technology. Perhaps our friend LD is just a techie and like the new stuff. :D
 
What about the midair in Brazil with the airliner and the Legacy (I think it was a Legacy). Looked pretty durable if it took that hit if memory serves me. The airliner didn't fare so well (which doesn't prove anything).

Just another point...



What you guys should be arguing, even though this has been entertaining, is why you are accepting such low end pay for a high end airframe?
 
Trust me we've all been beating oursleves over the head about the low pay... It is what it is. A crystal ball is always nice but mine has been deferred inop. (Also, though we are the lowest paid 50 drivers around, I believe starting salary is over $70K and bumps up significantly after end of probation--six months. Your $63K assertion is way off.)

From my perspective the point is about the 50EX and alternatives to it.

As you can see, once people start losing the argument about the EMB they assault the messenger. Implications that I'm inexperienced or am a sucky pilot, overly biased, "the 'only' person in the world" who says good things about the airplane, etc..

I take that as a sign my contention is valid, otherwise, why stoop to ad hominem attacks?


Then there is the tactic of using the A1P Legacy I and its well known deficiencies to impugn the Legacy 600. It would be like saying a 737-700 sucks because the 737-200 had turbojets instead of fans.


And of course, everytime someone loses the battle over the EMB they trot out the old Rio EMB-145 crash where the fuselage broke. This my friends is also a red herring. The plane crashed due to pilot error yet managed to taxi off the runway with no serious injuries. Even though the airplane was *crashed* and impacted the ground with a force that greatly exceeded design limits, EMB (to their credit) went back and added additional structure to the fuselage to prevent this from happening again.

That said, the moment of the engines, baggage, and behind-the-wing/aft-of-wing passengers on a 145 is much higher than that on the Legacy because the fuselage is so much shorter on the latter. A 135 probably would have stayed intact without the additional support, and all 145s in service today would as well due to a design change.

Again, the Rio plane was *crashed* due to pilot error and it is quite fortunate nobody was killed. That the plane taxiied under its own power off the runway is flat out amazing.

I do not see it as an indictment of the Legacy or its relatives in any way.
 
Last edited:
Not sure where you get that 63k figure but I can assure you that starting pay is more than that with a raise after probation. With bonus and stock it is North of 100k in the first year. And, don't forget to add in a great schedule with Texas hill country living!

LegacyDriver is passionate about the Emb that's all. I second what CRJCA wrote.

Cheers- Rum
 
Trust me we've all been beating oursleves over the head about the low pay... It is what it is. A crystal ball is always nice but mine has been deferred inop.

From my perspective the point is about the 50EX and alternatives to it.

As you can see, once people start losing the argument about the EMB they assault the messenger. Implications that I'm inexperienced or am a sucky pilot, overly biased, "the 'only' person in the world" who says good things about the airplane, etc..

I take that as a sign my contention is valid, otherwise, why stoop to ad hominem attacks?

Of course the old Rio EMB-145 crash where the fuselage broke is also a red herring. The plane crashed due to pilot error yet managed to taxi off the runway with no serious injuries. Even though the airplane was *crashed* and impacted the ground with a force that greatly exceeded design limits, EMB (to their credit) went back and added additional structure to the fuselage to prevent this from happening again.

That said, the moment of the engines on a 145 is much higher than that on the Legacy because the fuselage is so much shorter on the latter. A 135 probably would have stayed intact without the additional support, and all 145s in service today would as well due to a design change.

Again, the Rio plane was *crashed* due to pilot error and it is quite fortunate nobody was killed. That the plane taxiied under its own power off the runway is flat out amazing.

I do not see it as an indictment of the Legacy or its relatives in any way.

Not to mention that a Eastern DC-9 did the same thing, but everyone still climbs on them daily.

People always bash what they are not familiar with.
 
I have flown with LegacyDriver and he does a very nice job. If he says the Legacy is much easier than 50 i believe him. For him. Every pilot is as different as these airplanes and arguing the point is a very arbritary and futile point. I have to admit, I like the 50 as well, but simply not as much as my previous airplane. When it boils down, LD comes from a plane based off an airliner and has 1996 technology as opposed to a plane based on 1970s technology. Perhaps our friend LD is just a techie and like the new stuff. :D


remember when Legacy Driver was exposed here for answering himself with 3-4 different screen names?

rumrnr78
CRJCA
Skull One

humm....

:erm:
 
remember when Legacy Driver was exposed here for answering himself with 3-4 different screen names?

rumrnr78
CRJCA
Skull One

humm....

:erm:
LegacyDriver is a friend of mine as is CRJCA. I can assure you we are 3 different people. Check previous posts for proof- Cheers Rum (ex-Flexjetter)
 
LegacyDriver is a friend of mine as is CRJCA. I can assure you we are 3 different people. Check previous posts for proof- Cheers Rum (ex-Flexjetter)

No kidding! Why would I bother to *pay* for two extra memberships?
Once again, G200 can't win an argument with *facts* so he tries to attack my integrity.

The identities he refers to were actually, LegacyDriver, ERJ-140, and Vraciu. I had to re-register because FalconCapt couldn't beat me in a fair fight and locked down my account. We have long since buried the hatchet and that's why I'm here as LD.

If G200 ever stuck to the point of a thread the world would screech to a halt. No shocker he's at it again as usual.

Zzzzzzzzzz.....
 
LegacyDriver - it appears it takes you about 7 minutes to change screen names, pretty consistently. Why so long???

Nah, cuz there is a post up there where the difference is two minutes, one is thirty-seven minutes, and another that's twelve. So much for your theory. :nuts:

I'm pretty sure we could arrange a chat to show CRJ and RUM writing at the exact same time I am but what's the point?

I'm fairly certain as Rum stated that taking a look at post histories and length of time on this board would show we are different people. (If you look closely you'll probably see us logged in at the same time sometimes and other times not. Also I can guarantee you the IP addresses and Internet Service Providers we use are different. Pretty hard to drive to a new domain across town in seven minutes.)

Personally I could give a rip.



IF YOU SUSPECT I AM MASQUERADING AS THREE DIFFERENT USERS REPORT ME TO THE WEBMASTER.

(He has access to weblogs, IP Addresses, etc. to show we are in fact three different people. I look forward to my acquittal.)

Apparently I've won the argument because all you can do to discredit me is cast personal aspersions and innuendo.

Final Score

Legacy 28
Falcon 3
 
Last edited:
It doesnt matter how many screen names a guy has. If he makes a valid point he can have as many as he wants. So I guess in LDs case hes making 4 times as many good points! However, I am not LD and neither id Rumrnr. Dont know who Skull whatever is but Im pretty sure its not LD. Ok next topic?
 
LOL! Silly boy.

Maybe we should ping pong a few messages.

Go kick rum out from whatever bridge he's sleeping under tonight.
 
LegacyDriver - Don't you have something else to do, other than act childish?

I suggest you take one of your 50's up for some x-wind landing practice; what do you think? Clearly, you need some practice to learn proper rudder usage. Maybe taking a tailwheel a/c up would be good for you too?

You're a disgrace to Dassault to be representing the product as you do. You're the only person I've found that has a complaint about the way the Falcon flies. Pilot error? :)
 
LegacyDriver - Don't you have something else to do, other than act childish?

Childish? You're the one accusing me of being three people and questioning my piloting skill. Talk about childish.

I suggest you take one of your 50's up for some x-wind landing practice; what do you think? Clearly, you need some practice to learn proper rudder usage. Maybe taking a tailwheel a/c up would be good for you too?

Dude, I grew up in South Texas. I didn't land into the wind until I went to the Regionals. Any time, any day, you want to meet for a X-Wind landing competition I'm game. Loser pays a year's salary.


You're a disgrace to Dassault to be representing the product as you do. You're the only person I've found that has a complaint about the way the Falcon flies. Pilot error? :)

Dassault is a good enough disgrace to itself. They still haven't caught the Legacy in a number of areas with their 7X. Those guys already *FAILED* at producing a Regional Jet. Yep, that's right. Dassault built a Regional Jet that nobody would buy. NOBODY. Cuz they don't know how.

An RJ needs to work all the time, in any weather, with any crosswind imaginable without jamming a rudder to the floor to do it. Falcon couldn't handle it.

As for being the only pilot who says Falcons suck in X-Winds, etc.... Every pilot I have spoken to that has flown a *REAL* airplane (Embraer, Canadair, Gulfstream)--other than dyed in the wool Falcon junkies-- says the same as I do: Falcons are under-ruddered, overrated pieces of sh*t. Limitation on the Falcon 7X for X-Wind component is 23 knots.

WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

USELESS.

Having landed an EMB with a 45-knot direct crosswind without even sweating I can tell you that I know how to do it. In a 50? Fat chance. Maybe if you sideload it and rip all the tires off.

PLEASE.

What kind of moron designed the Falcon control system any way? You barely breathe on the damned yoke and the plane responds but to get the rudder to do *ANYTHING* you have to push it three times as far as on any other airplane.

STUPID.

Bad design.

Horrible.

Embraer has it right all the way. The double rudder and coupled nosewheel steering gives ABSOLUTE and COMPLETE authority to the pilot exactly as he wants it, when he wants it. The Falcon??? No airplane I have ever flown has such pathetic and ridiculous (lack of) rudder authority.

Then again, Falcon has a history of under-ruddered airplanes. That's why they had to add rudder to the 50EX over the 50...and it still isn't enough. That's also why the 7X can barely keep the centerline on a 15-knot X-wind (Falcon is going back to the drawing board and adding additional nosewheel authority to the thing because it only has like three degrees and that ain't cutting it with the wimpy rudder).

Ever try an upwind engine failure at max demo crosswind in the sim in 50EX? Pretty dicey maneuver. My sim partner crashed three times before he got it right. (I got it right first time because I watched what he did wrong. Was still a near thing.)

Embraer? Hell, I had V1 Failures in the sim where I intentionally left the rudder neutral just to see what it did. All that happened was it flew with a crab.

Embraers are built to be flown by 300-hour pilots. That's the kind of airplane I want. Faithful. Honest. True. Easy. Maybe someday Falcon will get a f'ing clue. I doubt it.

Heck, France can't even defend their own nation from the Germans (TWICE). What makes anyone think they can build an airplane that's worth a sh*t?

Grow up.
 
Last edited:
LeagacyDriver wrote --

Dude, I grew up in South Texas. I didn't land into the wind until I went to the Regionals. Any time, any day, you want to meet for a X-Wind landing competition I'm game. Loser pays a year's salary.


Quote:
You're a disgrace to Dassault to be representing the product as you do. You're the only person I've found that has a complaint about the way the Falcon flies. Pilot error?
Dassault is a good enough disgrace to itself. They still haven't caught the Legacy in a number of areas with their 7X. Those guys already *FAILED* at producing a Regional Jet. Yep, that's right. Dassault built a Regional Jet that nobody would buy. NOBODY. Cuz they don't know how.

An RJ needs to work all the time, in any weather, with any crosswind imaginable without jamming a rudder to the floor to do it. Falcon couldn't handle it.

As for being the only pilot who says Falcons suck in X-Winds, etc.... Every pilot I have spoken to that has flown a *REAL* airplane (Embraer, Canadair, Gulfstream)--other than dyed in the wool Falcon junkies-- says the same as I do: Falcons are under-ruddered, overrated pieces of sh*t. Limitation on the Falcon 7X for X-Wind component is 23 knots.

WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

USELESS.

Having landed an EMB with a 45-knot direct crosswind without even sweating I can tell you that I know how to do it. In a 50? Fat chance. Maybe if you sideload it and rip all the tires off.

PLEASE.

What kind of moron designed the Falcon control system any way? You barely breathe on the damned yoke and the plane responds but to get the rudder to do *ANYTHING* you have to push it three times as far as on any other airplane.

STUPID.

Bad design.

Horrible.

Embraer has it right all the way. The double rudder and coupled nosewheel steering gives ABSOLUTE and COMPLETE authority to the pilot exactly as he wants it, when he wants it. The Falcon??? No airplane I have ever flown has such pathetic and ridiculous (lack of) rudder authority.

Then again, Falcon has a history of under-ruddered airplanes. That's why they had to add rudder to the 50EX over the 50...and it still isn't enough. That's also why the 7X can barely keep the centerline on a 15-knot X-wind (Falcon is going back to the drawing board and adding additional nosewheel authority to the thing because it only has like three degrees and that ain't cutting it with the wimpy rudder).

Ever try an upwind engine failure at max demo crosswind in the sim in 50EX? Pretty dicey maneuver. My sim partner crashed three times before he got it right. (I got it right first time because I watched what he did wrong. Was still a near thing.)

Embraer? Hell, I had V1 Failures in the sim where I intentionally left the rudder neutral just to see what it did. All that happened was it flew with a crab.

Embraers are built to be flown by 300-hour pilots. That's the kind of airplane I want. Faithful. Honest. True. Easy. Maybe someday Falcon will get a f'ing clue. I doubt it.

Heck, France can't even defend their own nation from the Germans (TWICE). What makes anyone think they can build an airplane that's worth a sh*t?

Grow up.





LD -

When I was in school with your DO/Chief Pilot (?) from what they said, they had no problems with 15kt crosswinds in the 7X? Did you ask them? Im guessing they may be interested in knowing this 7X info and rudder problems only you seem to know about? I sure am!

X-wind issues? Neither myself nor the rest of the classes complained about landing issues?...I cant say Im a diehard Falcon fan, but the FBW Falcon is pretty impressive to me...but then again Im only rated in 7 business jets at this point...and have never flown an Embarear.

How about you? did you have problems up there in Morristown? congrats on the new rating anyhow, even if it's "useless"...why not look at it this way - you can go elsewhere and easily double+ your salary with that rating? thats not useless!

FWIW 30+kts was not a problem in the sim either...did you not do this demo?

Your crosswind problems really sound like a serious issue and should be looked into before you damage an airplane, or worse.

3 crashes and another near crash in the sim due to crosswinds?? - while I cant speak for yours, I'd definitely like to know about that within my department.

:eek:
 
Last edited:
LegacyDriver - Don't you have something else to do, other than act childish?

I suggest you take one of your 50's up for some x-wind landing practice; what do you think? Clearly, you need some practice to learn proper rudder usage. Maybe taking a tailwheel a/c up would be good for you too?

You're a disgrace to Dassault to be representing the product as you do. You're the only person I've found that has a complaint about the way the Falcon flies. Pilot error? :)

LOL, I was wondering about this too. I have landed with gusting x-winds up to 40 kts in the 50EX and never had a problem. The 50EX is a great flying aircraft, the 900 is even better. If I was looking for an aircraft handling would be an important consideration. The only real problem we have had the the 50EX is the engines (which are made by Honeywell).
 
LD-

I have flown both airframes you speak of. I was one of the first to fly the 145 here in the US so I was pretty much a test pilot on the thing. Would you like the laundry list of everything that was a shortcoming on the airplane or the actual system failures I had. I really enjoyed climbing through 10,000' accelerating through 250 knots and around 290-300 kts, getting the sweet rumble in your lower back of the non existent tailplane flutter.

Point is, don't bull$hit a bull$hitter. No airframe is perfect.
 
Childish? You're the one accusing me of being three people and questioning my piloting skill. Talk about childish.

LegacyDriver, you have a reputation! Many of us know about your "piloting skills." I'd prefer not to call your attributes "skills" though. That would be giving you too much credit.

Dude, I grew up in South Texas. I didn't land into the wind until I went to the Regionals. Any time, any day, you want to meet for a X-Wind landing competition I'm game. Loser pays a year's salary.

That sound risky, considering you need full rudder to land a Falcon 50EX in a crosswind! But, whose year salary does the loser pay? Mine or yours? I need to clarify this since it's a $80k difference or so. ;)

An RJ needs to work all the time, in any weather, with any crosswind imaginable without jamming a rudder to the floor to do it. Falcon couldn't handle it.

2,500+ hrs in Falcons and I've never cancelled a trip. Do you remember why the Legacy wasn't at the big golf tournament up in Napa in 2006? Because it broke!

As for being the only pilot who says Falcons suck in X-Winds, etc.... Every pilot I have spoken to that has flown a *REAL* airplane (Embraer, Canadair, Gulfstream)--other than dyed in the wool Falcon junkies-- says the same as I do: Falcons are under-ruddered, overrated pieces of sh*t. Limitation on the Falcon 7X for X-Wind component is 23 knots.

WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

USELESS.

That limitation will be changing. I suppose it's better than the limitation of "can't touchdown under load or aircraft will crack down the center."

Having landed an EMB with a 45-knot direct crosswind without even sweating I can tell you that I know how to do it. In a 50? Fat chance. Maybe if you sideload it and rip all the tires off.

I am not saying that the Embraer product won't land under a 45 knot crosswind and make the pilot look good. So the Falcon requires a pilot with a bit of skill, who cares? Just because one person doesn't have the skill to land the aircraft in a crosswind doesn't mean the airplane sucks.

What kind of moron designed the Falcon control system any way? You barely breathe on the damned yoke and the plane responds but to get the rudder to do *ANYTHING* you have to push it three times as far as on any other airplane.

Every airplane handles differently, and I think the 50EX handles pretty well.

When do you buy a new car do you say to yourself "What kind of moron designed this steering system? My old car required 3 turns of the wheel and still didn't turn very tight. At 1.5 turns, this car is already 180 degrees where it started from! It sure turns tight... piece of crap!"

Then again, Falcon has a history of under-ruddered airplanes. That's why they had to add rudder to the 50EX over the 50...and it still isn't enough. That's also why the 7X can barely keep the centerline on a 15-knot X-wind (Falcon is going back to the drawing board and adding additional nosewheel authority to the thing because it only has like three degrees and that ain't cutting it with the wimpy rudder).

Well, you're the first to report that from the several 7X pilots I've spoken to. How many hours do you have in the 7X?

Ever try an upwind engine failure at max demo crosswind in the sim in 50EX? Pretty dicey maneuver. My sim partner crashed three times before he got it right. (I got it right first time because I watched what he did wrong. Was still a near thing.)

Sure I've done that exercise many times. And I've never crashed. Your sim partner crashed three times? You know, just because someone doesn't fly the maneuver properly or well, it doesn't mean the airplane is crap. It may be time to look at the pilot.

Embraer? Hell, I had V1 Failures in the sim where I intentionally left the rudder neutral just to see what it did. All that happened was it flew with a crab.

It sounds like the regionals are/were a great place for you. Obviously, this corporate aviation field requires more skill than you possess. Oh well, at least you gave it the good 'ol college try.
 
FWIW -

Anyone with a 7X rating should also know there is NO x-wind landing limitation.

There never was.
 
As I read this thread, I realize how happy I am that LD (interesting initials BTW) doesn't bother posting at the other site anymore.
 
As I read this thread, I realize how happy I am that LD (interesting initials BTW) doesn't bother posting at the other site anymore.


He has no choice, he is banned.

There is some accountability over there and nobody is a complete stranger.

One also cannot make up 5 screennames and respond to and/or argue with himself....only one per clown over there!

(If you can only imagine someone actually doing that...hummm..)

whatever...its the internet - be a rock star...or even a legacy!!!



:erm:
 
Last edited:
LD -

When I was in school with your DO/Chief Pilot (?)...

I'm betting it was my assistant chief. He's a good guy.

...[F]rom what they said, they had no problems with 15kt crosswinds in the 7X? Did you ask them? Im guessing they may be interested in knowing this 7X info and rudder problems only you seem to know about? I sure am!

I cannot speak for anyone. I only know what the 7X drivers I've spoken to said. The airplane is being tweaked for X-Wind performance by Dassault.

X-wind issues? Neither myself nor the rest of the classes complained about landing issues?

Well it is a common complaint on Falcons.

How about you? did you have problems up there in Morristown? congrats on the new rating anyhow, even if it's "useless"...why not look at it this way - you can go elsewhere and easily double+ your salary with that rating? thats not useless!

USELESS was not the right word to use. I should have said SENSELESS. The control harmony for all three axes should be the same, IMHO. The Falcon rudder doesn't have the fidelity it should in *MY OPINION.*



FWIW 30+kts was not a problem in the sim either...did you not do this demo?

I did. I thought the Embraer did it a lot better.

Your crosswind problems really sound like a serious issue and should be looked into before you damage an airplane, or worse.

Not gonna happen. That's why we have alternates. If I don't feel comfortable with the winds I'll go elsewhere and my CP won't say a word. Other guys have done it. We don't place a high value on overinflated egos here. Safety is priority #1 and nobody is ever questioned for a safety of flight decision.



3 crashes and another near crash in the sim due to crosswinds?? - while I cant speak for yours, I'd definitely like to know about that within my department.

Uhhhhh I never said I crashed. Learn to read.
 
That sound risky, considering you need full rudder to land a Falcon 50EX in a crosswind!

Ever heard of "HYPERBOLE" by chance?



hy·per·bo·le [hahy-pur-buh-lee]

–noun Rhetoric.

1.obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”




For example the Falcon isn't really a POS. I just like the EMB better so I speak hyperbolically about the Falcon at times...


That limitation will be changing.

Is it a limitation or not? G200 says it isn't. I've been told it is.


I am not saying that the Embraer product won't land under a 45 knot crosswind and make the pilot look good. So the Falcon requires a pilot with a bit of skill, who cares? Just because one person doesn't have the skill to land the aircraft in a crosswind doesn't mean the airplane sucks.

Would you rather have an airplane that makes you look good or an airplane that makes you look great? Frankly I'll take the latter if offered.

I've never tried to land a 50EX with a 45-knot Xwind and unless I'm in an emergency I won't bother. That's my perogative as a pilot. It's good to know it will do it though.




Every airplane handles differently, and I think the 50EX handles pretty well.

It is a very spry airplane. No question about it. The EMB flew a lot more like a truck. Again, if I could change the 50EX I would make the rudder respond more with less input so it is more in line with the Aileron/Elevator (though not quite as sensitive).

That's just me.



Sure I've done that exercise many times. And I've never crashed. Your sim partner crashed three times? You know, just because someone doesn't fly the maneuver properly or well, it doesn't mean the airplane is crap. It may be time to look at the pilot.

The guy seemed like a pretty good pilot to me (we don't always go to initial/recurrent class with co-workers). There's obviously a reason why the Sim Instructor showed it to us. He was making a valid point.


It sounds like the regionals are/were a great place for you. Obviously, this corporate aviation field requires more skill than you possess. Oh well, at least you gave it the good 'ol college try.


OUCH. Thanks!

So now that we've bashed me let's get back to bashing airplanes...
 
Last edited:
I'm betting it was my assistant chief. He's a good guy.


It was both Director of Ops and Asst Chief (?), but as you know they share the same name....

and yes, very nice guys, very professional.

They must feel terrible that they make you to fly such an "Overrated Piece of Sh*t" , as you call it above...



:confused:
 
Last edited:

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom