Falcon 50ex

[Kingairrick]

I've laid out nothing but facts.

Uhh:
More expensive to maintain and *ALWAYS* broken. The thing is just old. If I tried to do in 50EX what we did in the Legacy we'd be in a service center within three days.Opinion, not fact.
If you're a French midget it's perfect for you. Me, I'm ready to kill myself after about 2 hours in it.Opinion, not fact.
Louder (You think a Legacy is loud, try a Falcon. The gaspers will make you deaf.)Opinion, not fact.
- Environmental sucks. Overheat the ducts... Always feel cold at altitude Opinion, not fact.
X-Wind Performance is abysmal.Opinion, not fact(closest to true though)
No foot pedal steering Fact, but the negativity of it is an opinion. I don't miss pedal steering (My Opinion)
Non-linear tiller. Ridiculous Fact, but the negativity of it is an opinion. I like it that way as do many others...different stokes..
Under-ruddered Opinion, not fact.
DV Window Weak. (Someone breaks the heater about every fourth time they close it.Opinion, not fact. You're the only one I've ever heard of on this one.
Draining potable water a nightmare Opinion, not fact
Baggage Compartment - TINY Opinion, not fact. I've never filled it up...
Fuel Gauges SUCK Opinion, not fact
Fuel system a clusterhump Opinion, not fact ???How could it be any simpler?
Electrical system (see above)Opinion, not fact ???How could it be any simpler?(see above)
No Ice Detection Incorrect, (it's the little red light on the center window)
No Trailing Link Gear Fact, but the negativity of it is an opinion. Some of us don't need it:blush:
Ergonomics particularly night lighting horrendous. You get some lights dim and other lights bright no matter how you try to adjust them. Also reflects off the glass which is just annoying as heck.Opinion, not fact
AOM and AFM are ridiculous. They are as many volumes as an encyclopedia and they tell you NOTHING about the airplane Opinion, not fact, and incorrect.
The Embraer is 1000 times more durable, far more comfortable, reliable, and redundant. Opinion, not fact unless you can show me the data to back that one up...
But ergonomically it is horrible, cramped, and uncomfortable. Opinion, not fact
Time has passed the Falcon by.Opinion, not fact

I'll be the first to admit that Falcons have faults. But dude, step away from the kool-aid. It's all about looks anyway, and 50s are beautiful airplanes.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Regarding the pathetic "ICE DETECTOR" on the Falcon (what a joke). It's a blue light. It sucks.

The cockpit *IS* small. Maybe you think it is large because you flew a Pitts.

How could the fuel system be simpler? See an EMB.

How could the electrical system be simpler? See an EMB.

Fuel gauges suck. Fact. How can you say that +/- 500# is anything but lame? Sorry but my standards are higher than yours I guess.

Draining potable water is excruciating at best and good luck filling it back up. Like I said, this is an absolute fact. Draining water in a Falcon is torture. Takes half an hour. EMB - PULL. Done. Literally faster than I can type it.

EMB is absolutely more durable. Dispatch numbers for the fleet prove it.

DV Window heater breaks all the time. That is a fact and I'm sure RUM and CRJ can back that one up. Every other time I get in a 50 the DV window heater isn't working because the pin in the handle got bent. I slammed EMB windows shut every leg for six years and never had any problems. So *FACT*. Maybe you just never open yours.

Noise. The Noise level on the Legacy has been proven to be the same or quieter than the 50EX. (A friend of mine did the initial sound proofing on the Legacy and I've seen his data. The newer ones are even quieter now and there is an even better noise reduction technology in the works. Still, at FL410 and 260 KIAS you don't hear anything in either airplane--save the gaspers on the 50. Gawd.) The gaspers on the 50 roar like a freight train. Most pilots I know close them because they are too loud.


Baggage compartment is tiny. That's a *FACT*. If I have more than three people I'm sweating. Maybe you fly around one rich guy by himself with no bags and thus the TINY baggage compartment doesn't bother you. So be it. The fact is the thing is small.

Night lighting sucks. Maybe you like bright lights glaring in your face and reflecting off the glass at night but that doesn't make my assertion any less true.

I can go on but why bother?

The 50 is old. It is an ergonomic headache. It is a systems cluster. It is out of production in part because of these things.

Goodbye 50.

Hello Legacy.

 

[G100driver]

Frankly that doesn't matter any way as my chances of getting a violation or an incident are much higher in a Faclon than an Embraer.

How does an airframe get you more violations

 

[LegacyDriver]

When it has a higher workload than is reasonably necessary to do the job...

A crappy tiller...

No rudder...

A taxi light that at night is as bright as a candle...

I can go on but I won't.

If I ever run one of these things off the side of the runway (or scrape a wingtip) in a crosswind because of its horrible rudder authority (and minimal wingtip clearance) I am betting that's a violation.

I can only say this: I could take an Embraer any place, any time, under just about any condition you can imagine and was never afraid of it biting me in the ass because it is built not to. With a Falcon I am geared up for it every second of the way even on days that a 152 would laugh at. (Maybe that's a good thing in some strange fashion--you'll never see me with my guard down or acting complacent in a Dassault!!!!!!)

 

[Kingairrick]

I understand that you get all hard and woody over the jungle jet. I think it's great that you dig it so much. But I don't think it's the answer to everyone's mission. Many seem to agree with that opinion.
Do you see much less childlike it seems when you put "I believe" in front of your statements?

 

[LegacyDriver]

I understand that you get all hard and woody over the jungle jet. I think it's great that you dig it so much. But I don't think it's the answer to everyone's mission. Many seem to agree with that opinion.
Do you see much less childlike it seems when you put "I believe" in front of your statements?

Many also seem to agree with the opinion that the Falcon is not the answer to everyone's mission. (Think of how obvious that statement is. NO airplane is the answer to everyone's mission.)

This guy was asking for alternatives to the 50EX and a previous poster suggested the Legacy. Obviously I am not the only one who thinks that the Legacy is a viable/superior option to the Dassault.

We can agree to disagree on this one. I think the Legacy rocks. That's no secret. You don't. That's okay by me. But don't pretend the 50EX is the greatest airplane ever built because it is FAR *FAR* from it. For my money both airplanes are compromises, but the EMB compromises are the ones that make my job easier and my passengers more comfortable.

The Legacy isn't the fastest, the highest flying, or the biggest, but it is a remarkable blend of extremely good qualities. It is a pilot's airplane and my experience is the people in the back who pay for it love it. Obviously not everyone can be happy with an airplane and the Legacy is no exception. But again, in my experience it is overwhelmingly popular with crews, pax, mx, management, and ownership.

 

[rumrnr78]

Legacy- Still in KBNA. Mechanics made it here so hope it is just a prox switch or easy fix. Chat with you later if your still speaking to me .

My vote is still for the Challenger 300! Flex should be putting some "lightly " used ones on the market, if not all ready.

Fly safe- Rum

PS- And yes, I will back Legacy up that the DV window can be a bugger and we have had some problems with it. Use caution closing! Also, with the 50EX being my 3rd jet, I can say it is by far the most demanding and can really bite you in the arse.

 

[CRJCA]

Rumrnnr and Legacy are right. However, all three of us come from airline backgrounds and are used to rugged airplanes. For my money, I'd still prefer a bigger cockpit airplane, but Im a creature of comfort. Falcon definitely has a market and presents a good airplane. But that being said this is America, everyone has their own set of preferences. Oh by the way, where is that 50EX totalizer? Man i could really use that. Havnt seen it.

 

[rumrnr78]

LegacyDriver- were circling the wagons for ya!:laugh: Rum

 

[LegacyDriver]

HAHAHAH you guys are a giant pair of tools. You better put your fire retardant underwear on pronto. INCOMING!!!!

 

[Kingairrick]

Many also seem to agree with the opinion that the Falcon is not the answer to everyone's mission. (Think of how obvious that statement is. NO airplane is the answer to everyone's mission.)

This guy was asking for alternatives to the 50EX and a previous poster suggested the Legacy. Obviously I am not the only one who thinks that the Legacy is a viable/superior option to the Dassault.

We can agree to disagree on this one. I think the Legacy rocks. That's no secret. You don't. That's okay by me. But don't pretend the 50EX is the greatest airplane ever built because it is FAR *FAR* from it. For my money both airplanes are compromises, but the EMB compromises are the ones that make my job easier and my passengers more comfortable.

The Legacy isn't the fastest, the highest flying, or the biggest, but it is a remarkable blend of extremely good qualities. It is a pilot's airplane and my experience is the people in the back who pay for it love it. Obviously not everyone can be happy with an airplane and the Legacy is no exception. But again, in my experience it is overwhelmingly popular with crews, pax, mx, management, and ownership.

See? Was that so hard?:beer:

 

[CRJCA]

Heh Legacydriver! I believe kingairrick asked for some data to support your Legacy claims. Not that I doubt you, but some hard data to back up your claims would be nice. And how is it you get this "data"? Hmmmmmm. Just wondering.

Signed,

FalconDriver

 

[LegacyDriver]

Heh Legacydriver! I believe kingairrick asked for some data to support your Legacy claims. Not that I doubt you, but some hard data to back up your claims would be nice. And how is it you get this "data"? Hmmmmmm. Just wondering.

Signed,

FalconDriver

Your timing is impeccable. I jut got off the phone with my bud at Embraer Executive Jets. I forgot to ask him if I can post his name (if he gives me permission of course I will). I worked with him for years and I trust him completely. He does not lie. He is one of the top jet salesmen in the country and has sold jets for another top corporate jet manufacturer before coming to Embraer.

That said...

Kingairrick (KAR) made an assertion about a Legacy in his hangar that has failed to dispatch on average two times a month. I asked my contact to research all the serial numbers that could possibly be attributed to the story KAR posted (S/Ns 1014-1034). My contact found *ZERO* matches that came back with KAR's assertion, nor did anything even CLOSE come up. Further, if such a hangar queen existed in the Embraer fleet my contact would know about it, as would all of his clients (his phone would be ringing off the hook).

He further provided the Legacy's dispatch reliability rate which stands at 99.967% -- the HIGHEST dispatch reliability in the world. PERIOD.

Embraer's market share in the Super Midsize Category has moved from 11% to 15% in the last three years and is now roughly equal to Dassault.

Also on the noise issue... The noise technologies that I referred to in a prior post as being on the way have actually arrived. Without giving you dB numbers (I have them but I cannot give them out) the Legacy is quieter in the cabin than the Challenger 300, an airplane that is known to be pretty peaceful inside.

Once again, people are spouting off at the mouth about things they know nothing about. Yes, the early Legacy jets were loud. Yes they were heavy. Yes they didn't have range or payload. But as I have asserted from the beginning... Every single Legacy built has been better than the one that preceded it in some form or fashion.

We are seeing the results in terms of range, performance, noise reduction, and interior improvements. The first four were pretty lousy and we all know that. The Legacy 600 is a far cry from those jets.

Back to you.

 

[LegacyDriver]

:beer:

:beer:

 

[CRJCA]

Blah blah blah. You sound like the teacher from the charlie brown series.

 

[CRJCA]

Nicely done LegacyDriver. Im sold. Of course I was already sold. Falcon nice plane. Too small though as previously noted. Its nice to hear some solid facts though given fact that its hard to sort through bull here sometimes. Also, itll help the gentleman that started this firestorm in first place.

 

[Floyd94]

Blah blah blah. You sound like the teacher from the charlie brown series.

The dude must make commision off selling the damn things.

I'll give him this the systems are eaiser... so much so a monkey could run the thing. However, I'd be interested in comparing the takeoff performance and 2nd segment climb numbers against a 50ex. My money is with the 50EX's.

 

[LegacyDriver]

The dude must make commision off selling the damn things.

LOL. No commissions I assure you.

I'll give him this the systems are eaiser... so much so a monkey could run the thing.

I agree completely. Systems wise the Legacy is genius.

However, I'd be interested in comparing the takeoff performance and 2nd segment climb numbers against a 50ex. My money is with the 50EX's.

There's no question in my mind the 50EX will do better on takeoff performance and second segment climb. It *IS* a tri-jet after all. However, you pay for that performance with a smaller cabin and less redundancy in the systems department. (At MTOW the Legacy outweighs the Falcon 50EX by nearly 10,000 pounds.)

That said, the MTOW BFL is only about 350' more for the EMB than for the 50EX. It's just not that big a factor--and if it is then the Legacy isn't the airplane for you.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

What's the ETOPS on the Legacy?
Why do I need to use the APU inflight?

And I'm sorry to the Challenger guys, but our boss didn't like seeing them upside down at the end of the runway in winter. Leading edge devices rule.

50EX to small, 900B.

 

[LegacyDriver]

What's the ETOPS on the Legacy?

Hell if I know. Not my area of expertise. They go across the pond regularly (NY to London City, etc. and back). I went to Hawaii in it (and loved it)--never had a problem. 3400NM and engines that are proven reliable through more than 10 Million fleet hours... (The E-190 just got approval for 75 minutes ETOPS and the AE-3007 engines on the Legacy are at *LEAST* as reliable as those on the 190.)

Why do I need to use the APU inflight?

REDUNDANCY.

Oh yea of no exposure (so many corporate guys just don't understand)... An APU can do a lot of things for you (except in a Falcon). In the Embraer it can power the entire electrical system, pressurize the aircraft, and run the hydraulics. It is also available to start an engine if you cannot for some reason do a crossbleed or windmilling airstart.

My favorite thing to do with the APU on the EMB is to power the pressurization system with it on takeoff and landing. On takeoff it results in lower ITTs which reduces engine wear. On both takeoff *and* landing it provides a perfectly stable air supply to the cabin. Thus no matter what I do with the thrust levers the people in the back won't notice. (Trust me they notice on a Falcon 50EX!!!!!!)

And I'm sorry to the Challenger guys, but our boss didn't like seeing them upside down at the end of the runway in winter. Leading edge devices rule.

Yeah, especially when they deploy asymmetrically at FL390 (Falcon 900) or won't go out of autoslat mode and get you stuck on the ground in KBNA for three days (Falcon 50EX - Rumrunnr!!!). HA HA HA!

50EX to small, 900B.

900B? Same problems as the 50EX has. Poor crosswind performer, sucky tiller, ad nauseum. It's just fatter and costs a lot more.

 

[CRJCA]

The challenger only ends up overturned off the runway if the crews dont believe in de-icing. Otherwise the jet is fine. If youre still not satisfied try a global or challenger 850. They have slats. Heck, they have everything for that matter. Althought they have a nice price tag too. Heh ya get what ya pay for.

 

[ultrarunner]

I agree completely. Systems wise the Legacy is genius.

It has to be...have you seen who's driving these things....

Book around the RJ if you can.

 

[LegacyDriver]

It has to be...have you seen who's driving these things....

Book around the RJ if you can.

Hahahahahahaha!!!! Ain't that the truth!!!!!!!

Makes the perfect safety record of the RJ all the more remarkable really. To think so many of us went from a 152 to one of those things without killing anyone is a feat in and of itself!!!!

 

[sleepy]

My previous Legacy operator employer pays about $5000 more per year than I make on the Falcon 50 at my present employer.

And that's probably about twice what an RJ driver makes.

I have a friend who made $201,000 NET last year flying the Legacy. Not sure of any Falcon jobs that do that.

Frankly that doesn't matter any way as my chances of getting a violation or an incident are much higher in a Faclon than an Embraer. All the promised salary in the world is no good to a pilot with no license. The Legacy is safer, tougher, and more capable where it counts than a Falcon is because it is derived from an airplane that has to work every time.

Hey Rum, having any luck with that gear problem on your Falcon? How many days are you gonna be stuck?

I am sorry, but I fail to see how flying a Falcon can increase a pilots chances of getting a violation. I have been flying for 13 years, I have flow everything from a C-152 to a DC-8. I currently fly Falcon 50EX and 900B aircraft. I have never been violated in any aircraft. Please tell me how the DA-50 lead to your violation?

 

[Swass]

Post #34 is LD's explanation of that statement.

 

[c140]

WOW! ha ha

 

[hgi2006]

My previous Legacy operator employer pays about $5000 more per year than I make on the Falcon 50 at my present employer.

Yeah but you work for the worlds lowest paying Falcon 50 operator; starting guys at $63k/year.

Most everyone but you claims that the Legacy is a POS and the 50EX is a great airplane. Do I sense a "little" bias?

X-wind performance in the 50EX? I've landed with a 42 knot crosswind in the 50EX in Europe and the rudder was about 1/2 way to the floor.

Folks, let's not forget, we're talking about an airplane that literally cracked down the middle when a hard landing was made!

Disregard legacydriver. He's bias and uninformed about the DA50 family, and extremely overstating the facts on the Legacy.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I too have never had a problem landing a Falcon in a crosswind....or really any plane for that matter..

maybe its the user?

I know hgi and while the 50ex might not be his favorite bird...he will also attest to not having landing difficulties..

then again, maybe they get extra strong, special winds over in Texas?

63K for an (obviously) highly talented, very experienced (been to Hawaii!!) 50EX Captain huh??

very nice.

hows it go?? -- LEGACYS RULE DUDE.

 

[WhyFlare]

Where is that pic of the jungle jet split in two? What is Vmo/ Mmo on Legacy? (50 is 370/.86M)

Falcon 50EX is a dream to fly and not a problem in crosswinds! You need to fly the Learjet (Tip tanks), Beechjet (No ailerons!) or Gulfstream II (Altitude bust waiting to happen) to appreciate an airplane that will bite you. The 50 is ************************* cat. Easiest checkrides I ever had.

Now after this post, I am interested to fly the Legacy. First really positive response from a pilot I have heard.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I don't have the energy to refute the lunacy in the three previous posts.

Whatever...

Too bad we can't have a landing competiton. Legacy would smoke the Falcon.