Falcon 50ex

[sleepy]

LegacyDriver - Don't you have something else to do, other than act childish?

I suggest you take one of your 50's up for some x-wind landing practice; what do you think? Clearly, you need some practice to learn proper rudder usage. Maybe taking a tailwheel a/c up would be good for you too?

You're a disgrace to Dassault to be representing the product as you do. You're the only person I've found that has a complaint about the way the Falcon flies. Pilot error?

LOL, I was wondering about this too. I have landed with gusting x-winds up to 40 kts in the 50EX and never had a problem. The 50EX is a great flying aircraft, the 900 is even better. If I was looking for an aircraft handling would be an important consideration. The only real problem we have had the the 50EX is the engines (which are made by Honeywell).

 

[54fighting]

LD-

I have flown both airframes you speak of. I was one of the first to fly the 145 here in the US so I was pretty much a test pilot on the thing. Would you like the laundry list of everything that was a shortcoming on the airplane or the actual system failures I had. I really enjoyed climbing through 10,000' accelerating through 250 knots and around 290-300 kts, getting the sweet rumble in your lower back of the non existent tailplane flutter.

Point is, don't bull$hit a bull$hitter. No airframe is perfect.

 

[hgi2006]

Childish? You're the one accusing me of being three people and questioning my piloting skill. Talk about childish.

LegacyDriver, you have a reputation! Many of us know about your "piloting skills." I'd prefer not to call your attributes "skills" though. That would be giving you too much credit.

Dude, I grew up in South Texas. I didn't land into the wind until I went to the Regionals. Any time, any day, you want to meet for a X-Wind landing competition I'm game. Loser pays a year's salary.

That sound risky, considering you need full rudder to land a Falcon 50EX in a crosswind! But, whose year salary does the loser pay? Mine or yours? I need to clarify this since it's a $80k difference or so.

An RJ needs to work all the time, in any weather, with any crosswind imaginable without jamming a rudder to the floor to do it. Falcon couldn't handle it.

2,500+ hrs in Falcons and I've never cancelled a trip. Do you remember why the Legacy wasn't at the big golf tournament up in Napa in 2006? Because it broke!

As for being the only pilot who says Falcons suck in X-Winds, etc.... Every pilot I have spoken to that has flown a *REAL* airplane (Embraer, Canadair, Gulfstream)--other than dyed in the wool Falcon junkies-- says the same as I do: Falcons are under-ruddered, overrated pieces of sh*t. Limitation on the Falcon 7X for X-Wind component is 23 knots.

WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

USELESS.

That limitation will be changing. I suppose it's better than the limitation of "can't touchdown under load or aircraft will crack down the center."

Having landed an EMB with a 45-knot direct crosswind without even sweating I can tell you that I know how to do it. In a 50? Fat chance. Maybe if you sideload it and rip all the tires off.

I am not saying that the Embraer product won't land under a 45 knot crosswind and make the pilot look good. So the Falcon requires a pilot with a bit of skill, who cares? Just because one person doesn't have the skill to land the aircraft in a crosswind doesn't mean the airplane sucks.

What kind of moron designed the Falcon control system any way? You barely breathe on the damned yoke and the plane responds but to get the rudder to do *ANYTHING* you have to push it three times as far as on any other airplane.

Every airplane handles differently, and I think the 50EX handles pretty well.

When do you buy a new car do you say to yourself "What kind of moron designed this steering system? My old car required 3 turns of the wheel and still didn't turn very tight. At 1.5 turns, this car is already 180 degrees where it started from! It sure turns tight... piece of crap!"

Then again, Falcon has a history of under-ruddered airplanes. That's why they had to add rudder to the 50EX over the 50...and it still isn't enough. That's also why the 7X can barely keep the centerline on a 15-knot X-wind (Falcon is going back to the drawing board and adding additional nosewheel authority to the thing because it only has like three degrees and that ain't cutting it with the wimpy rudder).

Well, you're the first to report that from the several 7X pilots I've spoken to. How many hours do you have in the 7X?

Ever try an upwind engine failure at max demo crosswind in the sim in 50EX? Pretty dicey maneuver. My sim partner crashed three times before he got it right. (I got it right first time because I watched what he did wrong. Was still a near thing.)

Sure I've done that exercise many times. And I've never crashed. Your sim partner crashed three times? You know, just because someone doesn't fly the maneuver properly or well, it doesn't mean the airplane is crap. It may be time to look at the pilot.

Embraer? Hell, I had V1 Failures in the sim where I intentionally left the rudder neutral just to see what it did. All that happened was it flew with a crab.

It sounds like the regionals are/were a great place for you. Obviously, this corporate aviation field requires more skill than you possess. Oh well, at least you gave it the good 'ol college try.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

FWIW -

Anyone with a 7X rating should also know there is NO x-wind landing limitation.

There never was.

 

[masedogg19]

As I read this thread, I realize how happy I am that LD (interesting initials BTW) doesn't bother posting at the other site anymore.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

As I read this thread, I realize how happy I am that LD (interesting initials BTW) doesn't bother posting at the other site anymore.

He has no choice, he is banned.

There is some accountability over there and nobody is a complete stranger.

One also cannot make up 5 screennames and respond to and/or argue with himself....only one per clown over there!

(If you can only imagine someone actually doing that...hummm..)

whatever...its the internet - be a rock star...or even a legacy!!!



:erm:

 

[LegacyDriver]

He has no choice, he is banned.

No, I'm not banned at all. I quit going because you guys are just as immature there as you were here...

 

[LegacyDriver]

LD -

When I was in school with your DO/Chief Pilot (?)...

I'm betting it was my assistant chief. He's a good guy.

...[F]rom what they said, they had no problems with 15kt crosswinds in the 7X? Did you ask them? Im guessing they may be interested in knowing this 7X info and rudder problems only you seem to know about? I sure am!

I cannot speak for anyone. I only know what the 7X drivers I've spoken to said. The airplane is being tweaked for X-Wind performance by Dassault.

X-wind issues? Neither myself nor the rest of the classes complained about landing issues?

Well it is a common complaint on Falcons.

How about you? did you have problems up there in Morristown? congrats on the new rating anyhow, even if it's "useless"...why not look at it this way - you can go elsewhere and easily double+ your salary with that rating? thats not useless!

USELESS was not the right word to use. I should have said SENSELESS. The control harmony for all three axes should be the same, IMHO. The Falcon rudder doesn't have the fidelity it should in *MY OPINION.*

FWIW 30+kts was not a problem in the sim either...did you not do this demo?

I did. I thought the Embraer did it a lot better.

Your crosswind problems really sound like a serious issue and should be looked into before you damage an airplane, or worse.

Not gonna happen. That's why we have alternates. If I don't feel comfortable with the winds I'll go elsewhere and my CP won't say a word. Other guys have done it. We don't place a high value on overinflated egos here. Safety is priority #1 and nobody is ever questioned for a safety of flight decision.

3 crashes and another near crash in the sim due to crosswinds?? - while I cant speak for yours, I'd definitely like to know about that within my department.

Uhhhhh I never said I crashed. Learn to read.

 

[LegacyDriver]

That sound risky, considering you need full rudder to land a Falcon 50EX in a crosswind!

Ever heard of "HYPERBOLE" by chance?



hy·per·bo·le [hahy-pur-buh-lee]

–noun Rhetoric.

1.obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”




For example the Falcon isn't really a POS. I just like the EMB better so I speak hyperbolically about the Falcon at times...

That limitation will be changing.

Is it a limitation or not? G200 says it isn't. I've been told it is.

I am not saying that the Embraer product won't land under a 45 knot crosswind and make the pilot look good. So the Falcon requires a pilot with a bit of skill, who cares? Just because one person doesn't have the skill to land the aircraft in a crosswind doesn't mean the airplane sucks.

Would you rather have an airplane that makes you look good or an airplane that makes you look great? Frankly I'll take the latter if offered.

I've never tried to land a 50EX with a 45-knot Xwind and unless I'm in an emergency I won't bother. That's my perogative as a pilot. It's good to know it will do it though.

Every airplane handles differently, and I think the 50EX handles pretty well.

It is a very spry airplane. No question about it. The EMB flew a lot more like a truck. Again, if I could change the 50EX I would make the rudder respond more with less input so it is more in line with the Aileron/Elevator (though not quite as sensitive).

That's just me.

Sure I've done that exercise many times. And I've never crashed. Your sim partner crashed three times? You know, just because someone doesn't fly the maneuver properly or well, it doesn't mean the airplane is crap. It may be time to look at the pilot.

The guy seemed like a pretty good pilot to me (we don't always go to initial/recurrent class with co-workers). There's obviously a reason why the Sim Instructor showed it to us. He was making a valid point.

It sounds like the regionals are/were a great place for you. Obviously, this corporate aviation field requires more skill than you possess. Oh well, at least you gave it the good 'ol college try.

OUCH. Thanks!

So now that we've bashed me let's get back to bashing airplanes...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I'm betting it was my assistant chief. He's a good guy.

It was both Director of Ops and Asst Chief (?), but as you know they share the same name....

and yes, very nice guys, very professional.

They must feel terrible that they make you to fly such an "Overrated Piece of Sh*t" , as you call it above...

 

[LegacyDriver]

It was both Director of Ops and Asst Chief (?), but as you know they share the same name....

and yes, very nice guys, very professional.

They must feel terrible that they make you to fly such an "Overrated Piece of Sh*t" , as you call it above...

hy·per·bo·le
[hahy-pur-buh-lee]


–noun Rhetoric.
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

hy·per·bo·le

n. A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.



Falcon is overrated, but POS was over-the-top hyperbole.

Our DO is the DO. All the Chiefs are Chiefs. Nobody goes by both. They don't have the same first name as the DO either.

We have a pretty good bunch of guys. They know I like the Legacy better and you know what they say? Not a thing. They rib me good-naturedly by sticking NO LEGACY signs on my office and stuff like that. I'm allowed to express my individuality and I honestly don't think anyone is truly harmed by it. Then again, I don't talk about the airplane unless asked.

Until this thread came up I stayed out of the line of fire because it always ends up the same way: assaults on my character, skills, and intelligence. Not sure why that is always necessary just because I don't like a particular hunk of metal as much as you do. Whatever...

The only people who seem to care are guys like you without anything else to do. Then again, nobody I know who has met you in person takes you seriously. Sorry to break the news.

The Falcon is fine. It does the job. It pays my bills. But if I were king of the universe I'd probably pick another airplane. More importantly, if I were Falcon I'd tweak the airplane a bit and make it more like the EMB in the areas that the EMB does better. Then you'd have a really really awesome airplane.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

hy·per·bo·le
[hahy-pur-buh-lee]


–noun Rhetoric.
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

Falcon is overrated, but POS was over-the-top hyperbole.

Our DO is the DO. All the Chiefs are Chiefs. Nobody goes by both.

We have a pretty good bunch of guys. They know I like the Legacy better and you know what they say? Not a thing. They rib me good-naturedly by sticking NO LEGACY signs on my office and stuff like that. I'm allowed to express my individuality and I honestly don't think anyone is truly harmed by it.

The only people who seem to care are guys like you without anything else to do. Then again, nobody I know who has met you in person takes you seriously. Sorry to break the news.

The Falcon is fine. It does the job. It pays my bills. But if I were king of the universe I'd probably pick another airplane. More importantly, if I were Falcon I'd tweak the airplane a bit and make it more like the EMB in the areas that the EMB does better. Then you'd have a really really awesome airplane.

Oh I see....now the Falcon is fine....

my....we have quickly changed our tune!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Oh I see....now the Falcon is fine....

my....we have quickly changed our tune!

I have always said it was okay. But it is inferior to the Legacy. TREMENDOUSLY.

I haven't changed my tune, just my tone. Obviously you can't read even straight facts (note you accused me of crashing the sim three times when no such thing happened nor was said) so it is clear hyperbole is beyond your grasp.

I enjoy the give and take of a fun debate and I can get wrapped up in it as much as the next guy. However, you, Mr. G200, ALWAYS cross the line. This thread is no exception.

So, either discuss the airplane or I'm done here until the next Legacy bashing session.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I have always said it was okay. But it is inferior to the Legacy. TREMENDOUSLY.

I haven't changed my tune, just my tone. Obviously you can't read even straight facts (note you accused me of crashing the sim three times when no such thing happened nor was said) so it is clear hyperbole is beyond your grasp.

So, either discuss the airplane or I'm done here until the next Legacy bashing session.

Id say thats a good idea on your end......

 

[LegacyDriver]

Id say thats a good idea on your end......

And I'd say, "Thanks for the advice but you can keep it."

Nobody takes these boards seriously any way. Most of the people are a bunch of pot-stirring trolls like yourself with nothing better to do than poke people with sticks.

I think we would all be happier if you went back over to the "other" board and stayed there.

 

[LegacyDriver]

LD-

I have flown both airframes you speak of. I was one of the first to fly the 145 here in the US so I was pretty much a test pilot on the thing. Would you like the laundry list of everything that was a shortcoming on the airplane or the actual system failures I had. I really enjoyed climbing through 10,000' accelerating through 250 knots and around 290-300 kts, getting the sweet rumble in your lower back of the non existent tailplane flutter.

Point is, don't bull$hit a bull$hitter. No airframe is perfect.

One of the first to fly. Again, using *EARLY* versions to bash the current ones. No new airplane is without its bugs. Look at the 7X. It is going to have all sorts of problems for the first little while because it is a new airplane.

There's no tail flutter on the EMB unless you push it to Mach 0.92ish.

Don't try to out BS me, sir.

No airframe is perfect, but the Embraer gets the important stuff absolutely right.

 

[LJ45]

challenger 300, can't make them fast enough :uzi:

:beer:

 

[54fighting]

One of the first to fly. Again, using *EARLY* versions to bash the current ones. No new airplane is without its bugs.

My point is, when it first came out, it was a big POS. It is the original 180 jet. But after numerous mods, etc it turned out to be pretty decent. The Legacy is a corporate version of the 135/145. I would hope by that point all the bugs were worked out. You are making it sound like the Legacy is a brand new, off the shelf design that is flawless....far from the truth.

There's no tail flutter on the EMB unless you push it to Mach 0.92ish.

That was a very well publicized problem with the airframe. One that Embraer refused to acknowledge. However, take a look at the saw teeth they put up underneath the horizontal stab, they put those teeth there for a reason. Don't try to tell me what has or hasn't happened to me flying that plane.

Don't try to out BS me, sir.

From reading your posts, I don't think there is any danger in that.

 

[LegacyDriver]

My point is, when it first came out, it was a big POS. It is the original 180 jet. But after numerous mods, etc it turned out to be pretty decent. The Legacy is a corporate version of the 135/145. I would hope by that point all the bugs were worked out. You are making it sound like the Legacy is a brand new, off the shelf design that is flawless....far from the truth.

They have worked out all the bugs---like ten years ago for the RJ. Legacy Bugs were minor at worst and were fixed five years ago.


I never said it was "brand new.". I said it was more modern and ergonomic than anything I've seen from Dassault. The plane is pretty close to flawless in part because it is not "brand new.". It has 12 million fleet hours under its airframe design. It is rugged as all getout and a joy to fly.

That was a very well publicized problem with the airframe. One that Embraer refused to acknowledge. However, take a look at the saw teeth they put up underneath the horizontal stab, they put those teeth there for a reason. Don't try to tell me what has or hasn't happened to me flying that plane.

Well, you are either full of beans or we are talking about different things. The "flutter problem" was caused by anti-ice exhaust out of the horizontal stab causing vibration. It was *not* flutter. It was, however, fixed. Some 11.8 million flight hours have passed since this fictitious "flutter" problem without a single case of actual tail flutter in the EMB fleet.

From reading your posts, I don't think there is any danger in that.

I'm finding it amazing that some of you admit to reading my posts yet you manage to get everything twisted up between your eyes/brain and the keyboard.

 

[54fighting]

I said it was more modern and ergonomic than anything I've seen from Dassault.

You can't be serious with that statement can you? Primus 1000 still, right?