Would SKYW inc trade ASA PBS and dumping ALPA for 1 list?

[PCL_128]

The "intel" from the PNCL TA is that is was rushed because of a new RFP...

No, it was rushed at the end because the NMB was getting pissed off that both sides were spending time bickering about dual qual.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I think it's funny how you obviously have me confused with somebody else, yet I continue to get you worked up. All I did on the last contract was to vote in favor of it.

Yeah...OK...I know that members of the MEC, CNC, and Communications Comm. post on here anonymously to keep people in line...Attacking dissension and deflecting blame are two themes...You use both...

Last time in negotiations, for part of it we had 2 bases, one with exclusively 700 flying, and one with 80% 200 and 20% 700 flying. That to me is a safety issue, especially if you were SLC based (RIP) and expected to fly a 200 after not flying one for months.

Then to you it is still a safety issue...There will be times when you won't fly one or the other for months...Don't blame it on the "senior" pilots...That is a lie and you just admitted that you and others played the "safety card"...

I disagree with the "safety" argument...The instructors do it....Mesa does it...Are you implying that our line pilots aren't as good as the instructors or Mesa pilots? I'm flying the 200 now. I would have no problem getting in an ATR today. When I'm off I fly a C172, a Twin Comanche, and a Bonanza...Is that safe?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that dual qual and PBS will be the company's major issues in negotiations. Since it appears they're already being flexible on PBS, why not dual qual too?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that we are the high cost operator and other regionals new to the DCI "family" are positioning themselves for any growth that may come down the road. It doesn't take a genius to realize that ALPA overplayed the "safety card" on dual qual. It doesn't take a genius to realize that PBS is going to come eventually whether you like it or not.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, it was rushed at the end because the NMB was getting pissed off that both sides were spending time bickering about dual qual.

Your beloved Democratic Obama NMB? Say it ain't so comrade...Having negotiated in front of the NMB myself, there is no way it was rushed because of that single issue....The NMB can't rush it anyway...You know that...

The NMB has 3 options:

1. Release
2. Park (recess)
3. Continue negotiations

They cannot rush the negotiations as you imply.

 

[sweptback]

Then to you it is still a safety issue...There will be times when you won't fly one or the other for months...Don't blame it on the "senior" pilots...That is a lie and you just admitted that you and others played the "safety card"...

I disagree with the "safety" argument...The instructors do it....Mesa does it...Are you implying that our line pilots aren't as good as the instructors or Mesa pilots? I'm flying the 200 now. I would have no problem getting in an ATR today. When I'm off I fly a C172, a Twin Comanche, and a Bonanza...Is that safe?

Think about the politics of the argument, the SLC base was mostly senior (at least until towards the end) and all flew the 700.

Your second paragraph is just baiting me. I'm not going to address it, except to say that the GA accident rate is much higher than that of the airlines, mostly because of the lack of type-specific training. Do with that what you will.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Think about the politics of the argument, the SLC base was mostly senior (at least until towards the end) and all flew the 700.

Your second paragraph is just baiting me. I'm not going to address it, except to say that the GA accident rate is much higher than that of the airlines, mostly because of the lack of type-specific training. Do with that what you will.

You are still doing the "ALPA two step". You are making it a safety issue, yet trying to blame it on the "senior" pilots....ATL was more senior than SLC on the 700 by the way....

We aren't going to agree on the "safety" argument...I don't believe that the accident rate is higher at GA because of lack of "type-specific training". It is higher because of lower experience, equipment (including maintenance), and less stringent operating rules and restrictions.

For argument sake, let's say I had type specific training in the 172, Bonanza, and Twin Comanche as you say is the reason for the higher accident rate...Would it then be safe for me to fly the different airplanes?
Did you know that our ATR instructors, who are currently 700 line pilots, are still qualified and used to move the 4 ATRs that still sit in MCN...Is that "safe"?

I'm not "baiting" you...I'm holding you and the rest of the MEC/CNC/Commun. Comm. accountable for what you say...

 

[at7driver]

have you seen that pinnacle has moved into our old spaces on C, ramping up?????

 

[PCL_128]

Your beloved Democratic Obama NMB? Say it ain't so comrade...

I agreed with the NMB. Arguing over this issue when everything else had been TA'd was ridiculous.

Having negotiated in front of the NMB myself, there is no way it was rushed because of that single issue....The NMB can't rush it anyway...You know that...

The NMB has 3 options:

1. Release
2. Park (recess)
3. Continue negotiations

They cannot rush the negotiations as you imply.

Take a look at #2, Joey. That's what was going to happen if they kept pushing back on the dual qual issue. When you get threatened with being parked after 5 years of bargaining, you start to move quickly.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agreed with the NMB. Arguing over this issue when everything else had been TA'd was ridiculous.

There is no way that was the only open issue at the end, unless ALPA had already caved on the other issues...Pay and workrules are far behind the ASA negotiated pay and workrules that were negotiated under a Bush Republican NMB...Now you want me to believe that a Democratic Obama NMB was harder on PNCL....sorry, I don't buy it...

Take a look at #2, Joey. That's what was going to happen if they kept pushing back on the dual qual issue. When you get threatened with being parked after 5 years of bargaining, you start to move quickly.

That is what happened at ASA both in 1998, and in 2007....What happened when ASA was parked? Watching you do the "ALPA two step" is entertaining if nothing else...."Obama's going to fix things"...."The new Democratic NMB is going make life better"...."We are going to 'take it back'"....

Then when PCL caves, the excuse machine goes into high speed....Quick let's try excuse #4 out of the play book.....

How's the industry leading contract at Air Tran coming?

 

[PCL_128]

There is no way that was the only open issue at the end, unless ALPA had already caved on the other issues...

It was indeed. Everything else was settled a couple of months ago. They finished up scope back then, and suddenly the company decided that dual qual was a major concern for them, even though they had never brought it up before. They bickered over the minutiae of dual qual for all this time, and finally came to a reasonable compromise.

Pay and workrules are far behind the ASA negotiated pay and workrules that were negotiated under a Bush Republican NMB...Now you want me to believe that a Democratic Obama NMB was harder on PNCL....sorry, I don't buy it...

Most of the work rules were TA'd way back when I was still on the MEC. We TA'd the scheduling section in early '07, still two years before we would finally be rid of Shrub. As far as pay, it really isn't that far off from ASA rates, from what I hear.

That is what happened at ASA both in 1998, and in 2007....What happened when ASA was parked? Watching you do the "ALPA two step" is entertaining if nothing else...."Obama's going to fix things"...."The new Democratic NMB is going make life better"...."We are going to 'take it back'"....

The Obama NMB is doing a great job, actually. Unfortunately, you can't undo what was done while Shrub was still running things.

How's the industry leading contract at Air Tran coming?

I don't think we've ever said that we're looking for "industry leading" at AirTran. Muck like PCL, our contract had far too many things to correct to ever assume that we could get an industry-leading contract on this go-around. We're looking for industry-standard while holding on to a couple of industry-leading items that we already have, like the the 12 hour duty day.

And yes, it's going very well. In just the few months since ALPA's been helping us, we've TA'd 9 sections with good improvements in each one. Just TA'd the latest one yesterday.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I disagree with the "safety" argument...The instructors do it....Mesa does it...Are you implying that our line pilots aren't as good as the instructors or Mesa pilots? I'm flying the 200 now. I would have no problem getting in an ATR today. When I'm off I fly a C172, a Twin Comanche, and a Bonanza...Is that safe?

Wow, you truly are a sky GOD! All that experience and yet, still stuck at ASA?
I bet you could sue 60,000 ALPA members a the wave of a simple wand!
You go girl!

 

[JoeMerchant]

It was indeed. Everything else was settled a couple of months ago. They finished up scope back then, and suddenly the company decided that dual qual was a major concern for them, even though they had never brought it up before. They bickered over the minutiae of dual qual for all this time, and finally came to a reasonable compromise.

So PCL settled for less than ASA a few months ago....Got it....So much for "taking it back" and the Messiah fixing all that is wrong....I'm not surprised, but I know quite a few ALPA cheerleaders that are shaking their heads in dis-belief now.

Most of the work rules were TA'd way back when I was still on the MEC. We TA'd the scheduling section in early '07, still two years before we would finally be rid of Shrub. As far as pay, it really isn't that far off from ASA rates, from what I hear.

The ASA contract was also negotiated during BUSH...How is that an excuse for PCL? Why isn't the pay at least ASA? The sad thing is, you will continue to blame Skywest for all of our ills....while PCL and MESA undercut everyone...They wear an ALPA pin so it is OK for them...

The Obama NMB is doing a great job, actually. Unfortunately, you can't undo what was done while Shrub was still running things.

I see a PCL contract negotiated with an Obama NMB that undercuts an ASA contract negotiated with a Bush NMB...then I see an ALPA cheerleader blame everything on Bush and Skywest....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wow, you truly are a sky GOD! All that experience and yet, still stuck at ASA?
I bet you could sue 60,000 ALPA members a the wave of a simple wand!
You go girl!

I can't get the "wind check" part down...and I'm really confused about when to ask how long the final is...I guess I'm just not mainline material....

I hear some Delta pilots actually fly military airplanes in addition to their big airliner....How do they do that so safely...They must be really good....Us regional guys can only hope to half as good someday...

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I can't get the "wind check" part down...and I'm really confused about when to ask how long the final is...I guess I'm just not mainline material....

And yet you sued to try to get it anyway! Go figure!
Besides, with your questionable background, that's why you are stuck at ASA. But then again, you're on the same black list as the 1983 hires at Continental!

I hear some Delta pilots actually fly military airplanes in addition to their big airliner....How do they do that so safely...They must be really good....Us regional guys can only hope to half as good someday...

Hope in one hand and sh!t in the other Joe, let us all know which one gets filled first!

 

[PCL_128]

So PCL settled for less than ASA a few months ago....Got it....So much for "taking it back" and the Messiah fixing all that is wrong....I'm not surprised, but I know quite a few ALPA cheerleaders that are shaking their heads in dis-belief now.

I'm certainly not "shaking my head in dis-belief," but I am somewhat disappointed. I think they could have done better with more MEC oversight of the entire process, but that's just my opinion.

I see a PCL contract negotiated with an Obama NMB that undercuts an ASA contract negotiated with a Bush NMB...then I see an ALPA cheerleader blame everything on Bush and Skywest....

PCL negotiated their contract almost completely during the Bush years. ASA was negotiating from a much better starting point, without needing to fix so many work rules. Again, PCL had to fix something as basic as block-or-better, while you guys could focus more on details.

As far as Skywest, I haven't blamed Skywest for anything. My criticism of Skywest isn't that they drag down the industry, but that they get all of the benefits that unionized carriers negotiate without contributing a dime to the cause. I could never say that they drag anything down, because quite frankly, Jerry is so petrified of having ALPA on the Skywest property that he gives them good pay and work rules just to prevent it.

 

[enuffalready]

, but that they get all of the benefits that unionized carriers negotiate without contributing a dime to the cause. .

I'm an ASA guy, and think that sounds pretty smart to me.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm certainly not "shaking my head in dis-belief," but I am somewhat disappointed. I think they could have done better with more MEC oversight of the entire process, but that's just my opinion.

I'm not at all surprised or disappointed...It is what I expected. There is pressure on all of us DCI carriers to get costs down...It was a factor in this TA.

PCL negotiated their contract almost completely during the Bush years. ASA was negotiating from a much better starting point, without needing to fix so many work rules. Again, PCL had to fix something as basic as block-or-better, while you guys could focus more on details.

That's what ALPA and the NMB told us in 1998....I know the speech...It didn't stop us from moving forward two steps rather than one...without a release...Using your logic, PCL and Mesa will always be cheaper operators than ASA....Why should we then support any further pricing ourselves out of jobs, while fellow "union" carriers are more "cost competitive" and pose a risk to our jobs...

As far as Skywest, I haven't blamed Skywest for anything. My criticism of Skywest isn't that they drag down the industry, but that they get all of the benefits that unionized carriers negotiate without contributing a dime to the cause. I could never say that they drag anything down, because quite frankly, Jerry is so petrified of having ALPA on the Skywest property that he gives them good pay and work rules just to prevent it.

So what is the incentive for Skywest to unionize? According to you, they get milk without buying the cow...If they buy the cow, they may not get all the milk....That doesn't seem like a great sales pitch to me....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

So what is the incentive for Skywest to unionize? According to you, they get milk without buying the cow...If they buy the cow, they may not get all the milk....That doesn't seem like a great sales pitch to me....

Speaking of cows, how is LJ these days?:laugh:
You two make the perfect couple! You almost look like the number 10 when you stand next to each other!
Rather funny watching you squirm with all the DCI cutbacks.
Also rather funny how you and the girls didn't file a lawsuit when SKYW inc bought you!?

 

[PCL_128]

There is pressure on all of us DCI carriers to get costs down...It was a factor in this TA.

Not really.

So what is the incentive for Skywest to unionize?

I'm not repeating it for the thousandth time, Joey. You know what the reasons are.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm not repeating it for the thousandth time, Joey. You know what the reasons are.

What are the reasons for THEM? They may not get as good a deal as they do now, and it will cost them 1.95% for the "privilege" of joining...Again, not a very good sales pitch...Especially when comrade Rez. blames them for all of the ills....

 

[FishandFly]

Scope out RJ's

Why are you being a prick? Personally attacking a person because you disagree with their views or opinions is very telling.