Would SKYW inc trade ASA PBS and dumping ALPA for 1 list?

[screamingpax]

Good point. Not that JA couldn't, he's quite resourceful. But it would be quite timely and very, very expensive. Doubled that last post, dammit!

Trojan

I guess my original point was that I understand lawyers have contracts to work with but who will actually pay the lawyers to fight it? ASA? They are owned by SKYW and therefore its like fighting yourself. Or ALPA? And again, pointless.

Anyways, I hope for the best and all I am saying is I hope people actually consider all angles and not just blindly decide ALPA and line bidding is the only way. The UAW and the auto manus also decided pensions were the way too, and high wages for little work. If we could all stay home all the time and get paid, life would be great but we can't because a business won't survive. There must be give on both sides to recieve!

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Ok! ALPA supporter=good. ALPA questioner= scab. Got it!

No wonder the decertification movement over there is gaining strength!

What a ridiculous thread!

 

[FishandFly]

Snafu, it's been 10 minutes. Where is my phone call?

 

[sunlitpath]

Is Skywest continuing to grow? Check your facts, please.

ASA is shrinking, Skywest is not. ASA = 1500 active pilots, Skywest = 2800 active pilots. The Skywest pilot group has grown by hundreds over the past 3 years. The ASA pilot group has shrunk. ASA has 140 pilots on furlough, Skwest has 0 pilots on furlough. ASA has lost contract rights with Delta on 20 crj 200 aircraft. Skywest has not lost contract rights on Delta aircraft. From a business standpoint, ASA is giant pain in the ass to Skywest INC. Wake up! Ask US Air pilots if ALPA is useful...

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

I replied to your message instead tough guy. I'll meet you by the swings at lunch MM.

 

[Nevets]

Speedtape, in the scope of this size of transition I would make an educated guess that the amount of money saved by skywest inc. would be substantial enough that transitioning to a SAPA type of union, and decent replacement contract, would be a small part of the puzzle.

SAPA type of union? Isnt that an oxymoron?

I've spoken to many, many SkyWest Mgrs on my commute, and they all say the same exact thing....."When it makes financial sense to Jerry, he'll merge 'em. Union/Non Union doesn't matter, if it's financially beneficial to Inc. it'll happen." Makes sense, Pilots, ALPA, etc. do not matter in the affairs of business. Like it or not, we're jellyfish flowing with the tide, for the most part.

So in other words, they will only do what is in the shareholders best interest...as they should. People just need to realize that pilots best interests dont always line up with the shareholders.

You also can't negotiate for something that's not for sale.

I beg to differ. This is exactly what SKW did with XJT. It was an unsolicited offer. And they sure as hell did negotiate.

ALPA told the ASA pilots that they can't negotiate for Delta flying. They said it belongs to the Delta pilots. Skywest negotiates for Delta flying. Why can Jerry do it, but not ASA ALPA? It doesn't compute for many of us who have given many years to ALPA.

Regional pilots cannot negotiate for their mainline flying. That is the purvue of the regional management with the mainline management within the confines of whatever scope the mainline pilots negotiated or didnt negotiate for. Its not a very hard concept in my humble opinion.

In a perfect world I would choose to have had skywest vote in alpa, and then proceed to one list. I know that would have led to a significantly better working agreement for the skywest and asa pilots. The problem is that we all would likely agree that it would be impossible now. Skywest pilots have had there say numerous times and SKYW inc. wouldn't want alpa.

As for our losing alpa, I must say that there will be some things that are certainly missed. What we would gain would be incredible though.

I dont think ALPA is the problem with SKW management. Its any union, except for maybe a "SAPA type union."

But I think your assumption that gains would be incredible if you decertify is faulty.

Dumping alpa and getting one list has nothing to do with holding the line or being a coward. It has everything to do with ASA becoming part of a company that strives to win.

One example of this is skywest performance checks. This is a huge benefit that comes to their employees because they want their company to do well. No ALPA line was held there because it was not needed.

If your company treats you well, and has a track record of doing exactly that then you should embrace it, not be militant. If they starting losing focus on treating us well we can consider representation at that time.

Are you saying that in its present form, ASA is not a company that strives to win?

As for performance bonuses I can tell you from personal experience that they will use that as leverage against any other type of guarantee type of pay, such as a B fund.

I trust Skywest inc. I believe that they have proven their worth to me as an employee, and I would be willing to give up ALPA to gain the security that I believe will come with being part of SKYW.

Again, from personal experience, I dont trust their management because they have proven their contempt for prospective employees and the ramifications to its current employees. I can tell you that we were given a contingency that required decertification and we could see how badly that would turn out for all employees. Trust me, its not worth it.

 

[FishandFly]

SAPA=Union.. Yes that is an oxymoron.

I have no doubt that there would be an on-going issue of feeling under-represented if we were to lose alpa and join sapa. I also agree that the company will do what is best for their shareholders.

In my view, if we continue on as we are now we will eventually face either being sold off or like comair.

If we, as a pilot group, join skywest I believe that we will alleviate these two issues entirely and solidify the future of our company.

-

As for the issue of losing alpa representation, it was stated above that there would likely be alpa drives in the future. I would be a supporter of that.

To reiterate, I am looking into the future with the belief that being one with skywest is in our best interest. I understand that there would be some problems both getting there and once we are there, but these problems pale in comparison to what the future could hold for us if we remain in this position.

 

[Speedtape]

SAPA=Union.. Yes that is an oxymoron.

I have no doubt that there would be an on-going issue of feeling under-represented if we were to lose alpa and join sapa. I also agree that the company will do what is best for their shareholders.

In my view, if we continue on as we are now we will eventually face either being sold off or like comair.

If we, as a pilot group, join skywest I believe that we will alleviate these two issues entirely and solidify the future of our company.

-

As for the issue of losing alpa representation, it was stated above that there would likely be alpa drives in the future. I would be a supporter of that.

To reiterate, I am looking into the future with the belief that being one with skywest is in our best interest. I understand that there would be some problems both getting there and once we are there, but these problems pale in comparison to what the future could hold for us if we remain in this position.

What does the future hold? You cannot predict the future anymore than I can, so quit trying to use fear to motivate.

I'm looking into the future with the belief that being one with Delta is in our best interest. I understand that there would be some problems both getting there and once we are there, but these problems pale in comparison to what the future could hold for us if we remain in this position.

I have a solution for me. Get the resume ready, and when the hiring starts, be on the leading edge. The one list I want is not the Skywest one, it is the one that was negotiated last year and resides on Virginia Avenue.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm beginning to think that Fishandfly is really just a Ford & Harrison plant.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Why is PBS tied to this? I bitched about PBS until it was voted in at my airline. It is the absolutely best thing that has ever happened from a scheduling perspective. Substantially more days off (19+) and consistent 95 hour lines

 

[Erlanger]

Why is PBS tied to this? I bitched about PBS until it was voted in at my airline. It is the absolutely best thing that has ever happened from a scheduling perspective. Substantially more days off (19+) and consistent 95 hour lines

I agree 100%. This PBS is really awesome. I think pilots don't want it because if it's something the company wants then it must be bad. While it's good for the company, it's great for the pilots.

Since having this I've hardly used my vacation time, I have more time off, my QOL has gone up, I have much, much more flexibility, you can bid the cities you want to layover in or avoid, pick your show and release times (it's great for commuters), buddy bid or avoid a crewmember and I still fly the same hours as before there was PBS. And there's probably another 50 parameters you can enter into PBS for your bid. But you also have to be reasonable on what you can bid at your senority level.

 

[SLUF4]

and what seniority are you erlanger?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I agree 100%. This PBS is really awesome. I think pilots don't want it because if it's something the company wants then it must be bad. While it's good for the company, it's great for the pilots.

Since having this I've hardly used my vacation time, I have more time off, my QOL has gone up, I have much, much more flexibility, you can bid the cities you want to layover in or avoid, pick your show and release times (it's great for commuters), buddy bid or avoid a crewmember and I still fly the same hours as before there was PBS. And there's probably another 50 parameters you can enter into PBS for your bid. But you also have to be reasonable on what you can bid at your senority level.

PBS sucks even if you're senior, unless you're in a large domicile with a large selection of good pairings...being senior means squat with PBS if all the pairings in your domicile are lousy!!!

 

[Erlanger]

PBS sucks even if you're senior, unless you're in a large domicile with a large selection of good pairings...being senior means squat with PBS if all the pairings in your domicile are lousy!!!

So the "other" way was better? You tell me what would be better then. Nothing is ever perfect but PBS sure was better then the old way regardless of senority, base size and quality of the pairings. The positives with PBS outway the negatives.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

So the "other" way was better? You tell me what would be better then. Nothing is ever perfect but PBS sure was better then the old way regardless of senority, base size and quality of the pairings. The positives with PBS outway the negatives.

The "other" way I used to get 18 and 19 days off every month with 90 to 97 hour lines...with PBS this month I have the same days off as a reserve line holder in order to get 94 hours credit! You do the math...?

 

[Erlanger]

and what seniority are you erlanger?

Not sure that matters. Everyone holds so dearly their senority when it comes to jumpseating or non-reving, upgrades and transitions, furloughs, domicile transfers, bonuses and 401k contributions, vacation and sicktime accrual, etc. God forbid if senority isn't honored properly in those cases. Why should schedule bidding be any different?

 

[Erlanger]

The "other" way I used to get 18 and 19 days off every month with 90 to 97 hour lines...with PBS this month I have the same days off as a reserve line holder in order to get 94 hours credit! You do the math...?

Are you Skywest? If you are then your schedule is so we don't have to furlough any pilots. Suck it up for a while till things get back to normal or should we throw our fellow pilots under the bus? BTW, under the "other" way the schedules would of changed to suit these times anyway. You'd still then have the same schedule, hours and days off.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Are you Skywest? If you are then your schedule is so we don't have to furlough any pilots. Suck it up for a while till things get back to normal or should we throw our fellow pilots under the bus? BTW, under the "other" way the schedules would of changed to suit these times anyway. You'd still then have the same schedule, hours and days off.

Not true, there are guys far junior to me in other domicles getting far better pairings on a regular basis! I'd be happy to "suck it up" if we all did so equally, but that is not the case. The pairings for us have been sliding in quality ever since the switch to PBS, it has little to do with "these times". Have you been getting lines with either almost the same days off as pre PBS hard lines but the same pay as reserve, or the flip side of trying to keep your pay close to what it used to be and getting the same days off as a guy on reserve?

 

[Speedtape]

ASA is shrinking, Skywest is not. ASA = 1500 active pilots, Skywest = 2800 active pilots. The Skywest pilot group has grown by hundreds over the past 3 years. The ASA pilot group has shrunk. ASA has 140 pilots on furlough, Skwest has 0 pilots on furlough. ASA(Skywest, Inc.) has lost contract rights with Delta on 20 crj 200You failed to mention that they gained 10, 900's ((lost 1000 seats, gained 760 netting -240 seats) aircraft. Skywest has not lost contract rights(Skywest, Inc lost) on Delta aircraft.(HUH?) From a business standpoint, ASA is giant pain in the ass(MONEY MAKER) to Skywest INC. Wake up!(I'm awake, but not brain dead) Ask US Air pilots if ALPA is useful...(There will be another ALPA vote in the near future and that will answer your question.)[/QUOTE]

What Skywest are you referring to in your post? Skywest, Inc. has lost almost everything that ASA has lost. ASA has shrunk because flight hours have been reduced in ATL--it's the economy!

Skywest has not furloughed--yet. Delta has not furloughed--yet. It may be because they are expecting a couple of airline failures in the next several months and want to be prepared to exploit the opportunity. However, if that does not happen, you will see furloughs.


I'm glad you brought up the US Air pilots. They demanded arbitration, and arbitration they got. Unfortunately, they didn't like the outcome. An Arbitrator's ruling is final. They will never overturn it.

ALPA cannot be blamed for the ruling. If anyone can be blamed, it would be the negotiators from both pilot groups who could not find common ground which forced their fate into the hands of someone who has no vested interest in their futures or the outcome. The representatives of the respective pilot groups lost control of the process--through their own doing or undoing, depending how one wants to look at it.

Before it's over, USAir Pilots will be back in ALPA. My bet is that it will happen within the next 3 years.

 

[JumpersAway]

There are a few key points I'd like to throw into the pot here, that I think are getting overlooked......

Firstly, if ASA were going away, I think management would be far less delicate in their approach. I think it would be done with an ax, and they would just start transferring airframes without regard for the contract. Right now, as it stands, the contract is in place and management has every intention of abiding by it- especially with regard to the no furlough clause- as was stated by SH in recurrent ground a couple weeks ago. If we were going away, it would be done now, without regard...........

PBS- I don't care what method determines my schedule, provided I can still snag the a couple extra weeks off in conjunction with my vacation time. If management wanted PBS, they would simply make the lines so bad, you'd be crying for it. Can you say "Five Day Trips"........ The company builds the pairings, so they effectively control the end game. PBS only makes sense with a big hiring swell- being able to do more with less.

Being called a scab without crossing a picket line is a little harsh. I will also agree that there is an appropriate way to disagree with ALPA- how bout' through a letter or a face to face meeting with the MEC/LEC. They may work for ALPA, but they work there for US. If you don't like something, or have a concern, bring it up at a meeting. It's entirely possible that when you are done, you won't be the most popular pilot in the room, but sometimes leadership and dissention come at a cost.

I also think that we are putting the cart before the horse here. Alot of people see our furloughs and point to SkyWest and wonder "Why not them?". The circus isn't over yet, and it's entirely possible they too, will come out battered and bruised following the airline downturn. They are already poising to furlough through various offerings. This fall will be the tell all. As far as SkyWest in Atlanta- I expect to see them here for a month or two, then they will be off to their side of the Mississippi, and we will continue to maintain the status quo.

Once again, I'm thinking that a lot of our future here, has to do with Pinnicle and their contract. We all need to be informed on this, and watching to see how this plays out.

 

[FightingIrish]

Regional pilots cannot negotiate for their mainline flying. That is the purvue of the regional management with the mainline management within the confines of whatever scope the mainline pilots negotiated or didnt negotiate for. Its not a very hard concept in my humble opinion.

Comair has it in their scope section. Look it up. How did they get it?

For argument sake, let's just say you are right. We know Jerry can and has negotiated for it. If you say ALPA can't, and we know Jerry can. Maybe we should be careful about overplaying our perceived power as a union and form a mutually beneficial partnership with Jerry.

To Jumpers point regarding Pinnacle. He is right. Initial reports in the "inner circle" is that it is less than ASA with a single list between Colgan/Pinnacle. If that is the case, then as Jumper points out, we will need to change our plans. Some of our hard working ASA ALPA folks are not real happy about the initial reports. It will put more pressure on us. It is going to look bad when Skywest has higher rates than newly negotiated ALPA rates with a Democratic NMB and a Democratic Administration.

On the PBS issue. Both sides have agreed on most everything. The big hold up is that the union wants about half of the money savings in improvements. The company won't agree to that.

 

[73belair]

Once again, I'm thinking that a lot of our future here, has to do with Pinnicle and their contract. We all need to be informed on this, and watching to see how this plays out.

I'd put money on it being worse in a lot of areas than ASA's. 75% pay for deadhead alone is nonsense. (if that is actually in there) This will be a BIG failure for ALPA if its not at least as good as ASA's

 

[SSDD]

But you know that Rez and PCL will spin it, and justity it, and somehow blame Skywest pilots for the failure.

 

[Nevets]

I will also agree that there is an appropriate way to disagree with ALPA- how bout' through a letter or a face to face meeting with the MEC/LEC. They may work for ALPA, but they work there for US. If you don't like something, or have a concern, bring it up at a meeting. It's entirely possible that when you are done, you won't be the most popular pilot in the room, but sometimes leadership and dissention come at a cost.

Or better yet, recall them.

Comair has it in their scope section. Look it up. How did they get it?

For argument sake, let's just say you are right. We know Jerry can and has negotiated for it. If you say ALPA can't, and we know Jerry can. Maybe we should be careful about overplaying our perceived power as a union and form a mutually beneficial partnership with Jerry.

If Comair has it in their scope, its only because DALPA and their managment has allowed it through their contract AND the Comair MEC used negotiating capital to attain it. Anyways, DALPA can recapture that through negotiations without regard to Comair MEC contract language. Please provide the Comair contract language, thanks.

Just because you are union, does not mean you cannot form a mutually beneficially partnership with management, like SWA for example. In fact, I would go as far as saying that you cannot have a credible partnership of any kind unless you are represented by a bargaining agent recognized by the NMB.

 

[Bako Cap]

I will take ONE LIST, with some base fences, and ALPA (if I have to) after a certification vote for the whole group. I will gladly swallow my pride in accepting the PFT'ers that would be senior to me. ONE LIST is more important to our pilot groups that most care to acknowledge, ALPA or not.

PBS is another matter. It takes a bit to figure out how not to screw yourself, but I would never choose to go back to hard lines.

 

[JumpersAway]

I will take ONE LIST, with some base fences, and ALPA (if I have to) after a certification vote for the whole group. I will gladly swallow my pride in accepting the PFT'ers that would be senior to me. ONE LIST is more important to our pilot groups that most care to acknowledge, ALPA or not.

PBS is another matter. It takes a bit to figure out how not to screw yourself, but I would never choose to go back to hard lines.

I agree that one list should be a top priority- for both management as well as our respective pilot groups. However, since I haven't heard of rumblings from either one of the two management groups to indicate intrest from INC., I'd have to say this whole discussion is moot. As far as ALPA- I could take it or leave it, either way. I'm looking for effectiveness and the long road- don't really care how we get there, or who gets us there. I don't really have any disdain for ALPA, nor any deep felt love. Simply, it's just what we've got. However, I will say that I am more concerned with OUR happenings than I am with the National agenda and old school, outdated, method of business. I'm hoping that our dealings with Delta, and Lee Moak, are a foreshadowing of the evolution of ALPA business, and it's evolving game plan for the long term future. I suppose time will tell.

However, there is one thing I feel strongly about. If this T/A is as bad as it is forcast to be, I think that there should be some very clear, and unmistakably poinient actions taken here. After four years of talking about stopping the undercutting within DCI, if this is indeed substantially less than what ASA has, I think they ought to be tossed off the ALPA roll, as should Mesa. I also think that they ought to bask in the glory of their newfound pass privelages. If they want to "go it alone", then I think they should be allowed to do just that.

 

[BrickTop]

ALPA will never have a place at Skywest. "NEVER"

 

[buscap]

ALPA will never have a place at Skywest. "NEVER"

Never say never my friend.

 

[BrickTop]

Never say never my friend.

Perhaps someday a Union but not one soul besides the most disgruntled of our group would choose ALPA for representation.

 

[crjskipper]

from a source inside delta - the lga dci flying will come up for bid. pinnacle, comair and asa will be the three most likely candidates for most of it. he says asa is the only one without dual flying and that will more than likely kill the bid. thank you current alpa leadership.