Would SKYW inc trade ASA PBS and dumping ALPA for 1 list?

[FishandFly]

Once we are forced to take PBS, what differences will exist between us and SKYW?

 

[JumpersAway]

Where did you come up with that nonsense? Skywest has a contract in place till 2020 and I don't think requiring a pilot group to be ALPA would be legal.

It's not nonsense, it's fact. It was deliberated about. Lee Moak has figured out that it is in the best interest of his pilot group if we collaborate and work as a team in raising the bar. ASA, Delta, and a multitude of other DCI carriers have been working on this for quite some time. Where was SkyWest's representatives while this was going on??? I don't seem to recall their presence.......... It wasn't nonsense, it's fact. Whether or not it goes into effect, I'm not certain, but it has been a real issue on the table.

 

[USCtrojan]

It's not nonsense, it's fact. It was deliberated about. Lee Moak has figured out that it is in the best interest of his pilot group if we collaborate and work as a team in raising the bar. ASA, Delta, and a multitude of other DCI carriers have been working on this for quite some time. Where was SkyWest's representatives while this was going on??? I don't seem to recall their presence.......... It wasn't nonsense, it's fact. Whether or not it goes into effect, I'm not certain, but it has been a real issue on the table.

Future GROWTH of DCI to go to ALPA Carriers only. You keep what you have, but growth can only go to ALPA Carriers. It was in Northwest's JPWA that Delta is supposedly honoring--post merger. This is what everyone is referring to.

Trojan

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

Fish....how much do you know about PBS?

First of all, no one can force us to take anything. We are not, and will not be, in bankruptcy proceedings before a judge who might have the power to do so. Not while we are backed by Jerry's $$$. Furthermore, we are making Jerry $$$, as has been previously stated, therefore making us a valuable asset. I can use colors if I have to explain that again if it will help you absorb the concept. The only way we are going to take PBS, on their terms, is if defeatists like you decide "all is lost" prematurely, and then undermine union efforts to achieve the desired outcome. Joseph Kennedy, America's ambassador to Great Britain at the start of WWII, had a similar outlook on Great Britain's chance to defy Hitler in WWII. "The battle has been lost before it has begun". Glad the Brits had the cajones to prove him wrong, and thankfully we have individuals with a backbone at the office working to maintain our QOL. These very same people who are trying to help us all now, are the ones who are prepared to go to the mat for you when something goes wrong at work. I doubt you would have the backbone to tell your union reps how you feel about their efforts, or to refuse their help on principle when you need it.

I have some questions for you. How much do you know about the PBS system currently being negotiated by our union reps? You assume that it is the exact same PBS system that Skywest has. Do you know who the vendor for Skywest is? Do you know what vendor, if one has been selected, that our union is pushing for? The vendor they select could make a huge difference. Do you know how much control the SAPA pilots have over their PBS system (zilch, they take what is handed to them)? Assuming we VOTED IN PBS, do you know how much control over the system our Union is negotiating for?

Have you even talked to anyone who is involved in the process of PBS negotiations here at ASA, or are you making general assumptions leading you to base your argument on a faulty premise? Those were all rhetorical questions (in case that part flew over your head).

I challenge you to actually pick up your contract and read it, go over to the office and talk to someone who is involved in negotiations, and then question any Skywest pilot about their system.

I think if you spent a little more time doing your homework instead of spouting out bad information on FI, you would realize how misguided you are. Chances are, the grass is going to look quite a bit greener on THIS side of the fence. What is it that you think will be gained by one list? We were saved in Delta's latest bankruptcy by not being ONE list. Thankfully, Comair seemed like the better company for them to drag through the courts.

We should be thankful we were sold. What's to say that Skywest doesn't eventually find itself in trouble. I don't want to be a part of their organization when United goes down the tubes, who BTW is raising capital by mortgaging their aircraft parts. Do you think your job is going to be safer? Do you expect more money, or better work rules? Guess where all of those came from? The only reason SAPA can claim similar progress is because it was GIVEN to them to prevent an independent union from being voted on property.

You are paying for union representation. The union is a tool, a seat at the bargaining table. What we do with that seat at the bargaining table is up to us. "Giving it away" in the words of a wise man, "would be like putting a big slab of red meat in front of a pack of hungry wolves". Do you think the wolves have your hunger in mind? Rhetorical, again . You don't seem to understand how, or why, decisions are being made that affect your career, but you still haven't gotten off of your can to go ask these questions to the folks that know the answers. Get involved, be part of the solution--or do nothing and continue to feel like a victim. If you do what you've always done, you're going to get what you've always gotten.

 

[FishandFly]

Snafu,

PBS= I know a little bit about pbs.

Our taking PBS= We will be forced into PBS by the next contract. I'll bet money on it.

You say we are a valuable asset to jerry= That is not the point. As has been discussed earlier in the thread the POINT AT HAND is that we are being held as a sellable asset. You may see that as a good thing; I do not. I think that being sold off will be very bad for us.

On your history speech= Do you realize that as long as we have people on the street, maintaining or improving our "quality of life" directly results them coming back? That sounds fantastic, why don't we ask for another raise!

On your argument that "our pbs system will be so good that we should not even want one-list with skyw"= Bologna. Please reference my comments earlier concerning the fact that ALPA will continue to be active and helpful in small issues that are brought to us by CT memos every couple months. The point here is that our long term outlook is much brighter if we are able to be attached to SKYW inc.

As for your suggestion that I don't read or appreciate our contract= Do you always carry your ignorance around on your sleeve? The definition I mean.

Your suggestion that ONE-LIST now is not a good idea because it wouldn't have worked well for us with Comair= Please visualize the whole apples and oranges analogy. You're trying to compair Delta with SKYW.




For the rest of your questions and suggestions, I think that the main thing your are missing the boat on is your presumption that I (or possibly anyone) who questions the all mighty alpa is selling out. Although you are entitled to your opinion, you are quite wrong. I trust Skywest inc. I believe that they have proven their worth to me as an employee, and I would be willing to give up ALPA to gain the security that I believe will come with being part of SKYW. And finally, as stated numerous times above, we are currently being held as a sellable asset. If skywest sells us, I believe we will lose the greatest opportunity that ASA has had in recent history.

 

[sweptback]

And finally, as stated numerous times above, we are currently being held as a sellable asset. If skywest sells us, I believe we will lose the greatest opportunity that ASA has had in recent history.

I don't understand your logic. On one hand you say that ASA is being held separately so that we can be sold as necessary, on the other hand you want to merge with SKYW and become one big happy family. I just don't see you changing Jerry's mind, union or no. If he wants to keep us separate, it will happen, no matter what the representational state of the ASA pilots are.

To me, it was very telling that SkyWest, Inc. chose to keep up separate once they purchased us. That told me that merging the two carriers was not an option, since it would be the easiest to merge at that time. Now that SkyWest has invested a lot of money and talent in ASA it just reinforces my belief that they continue to want to keep us apart.

And one more thing, with United circling the drain, do you really think right now is a good time to be on the same list as SkyWest? Most of their flying is for United... for better or worse ASA can not furlough any more.

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

You know a little about PBS...... Well I guess we'll all have to take your word for it then. That is a convincing statement. Thanks for backing it up by answering my questions.

We can not be FORCED to take PBS. Your OPINION is that we will have it.

Your OPINION is that being sold would be bad for us. Only time will tell, but for now we are safe, because no one is in a position to buy us.

Maintaining our QOL "directly results" them coming back? Our QOL has zero to do with furloughees coming back. Staffing is all about block hours. We serve one customer right now...DELTA. They already have too many regional carriers, so there are too many mouths at the table, not to mention the RECESSION. Skywest serves multiple carriers, and is holding their staffing at an inflated level because Jerry is expecting some additional opportunities to open up for them. Faulty premise for your arguement, AGAIN.

"Our PBS system will be much better that we should not want one list"? You struggle with comprehensive reading sir. My posting indicated that we would have more control over our system than they would, because we were able to control its implementation IF we take it.

As far as one list with mainline and Comair, I was not here then, but if I remember correctly it was proposed and shot down. My point was the unforseen benefit of being excluded from one list during this most recent bankruptcy as opposed to what our fate would have been had we still been owned by delta, or had one list. Not apples to oranges, cause and effect.

I have no problem with anyone questioning ALPA. You are not questioning ALPA. You are taking potshots from dark corners. Like I said before, go ask your reps these questions. Do you think they are going to answer them on here? Do you really want an answer, or do you want to fatasize over a pipe dream.

"I would be willing to give up ALPA to gain the security that I believe will come with being part of SKYW".....lmmfao...then quit. What keeps you here? the money? the work rules? An ATL base? You could have all of that over there. There is a difference between questioning the union, and wanting to throw it off property for personal gain.

You sir, have no facts to back up your statements. You are unwilling to go get the answers you seek from those who have them. You are willing to throw a union off property because you think you will fare better by giving into what Skywest management wants you to do, AND YOU THINK THAT THEY WILL GIVE YOU THE SAME BENEFITS THAT ALPA HAD TO FIGHT THEM FOR????? And I'm the ignorant one?

I pity you. You are a CLOSET SCAB who doesn't have the courage to follow his heart. Do they really let you fly airplanes?

 

[USCtrojan]

You know a little about PBS...... Well I guess we'll all have to take your word for it then. That is a convincing statement. Thanks for backing it up by answering my questions.

We can not be FORCED to take PBS. Your OPINION is that we will have it.

Your OPINION is that being sold would be bad for us. Only time will tell, but for now we are safe, because no one is in a position to buy us.

Maintaining our QOL "directly results" them coming back? Our QOL has zero to do with furloughees coming back. Staffing is all about block hours. We serve one customer right now...DELTA. They already have too many regional carriers, so there are too many mouths at the table, not to mention the RECESSION. Skywest serves multiple carriers, and is holding their staffing at an inflated level because Jerry is expecting some additional opportunities to open up for them. Faulty premise for your arguement, AGAIN.

"Our PBS system will be much better that we should not want one list"? You struggle with comprehensive reading sir. My posting indicated that we would have more control over our system than they would, because we were able to control its implementation IF we take it.

As far as one list with mainline and Comair, I was not here then, but if I remember correctly it was proposed and shot down. My point was the unforseen benefit of being excluded from one list during this most recent bankruptcy as opposed to what our fate would have been had we still been owned by delta, or had one list. Not apples to oranges, cause and effect.

I have no problem with anyone questioning ALPA. You are not questioning ALPA. You are taking potshots from dark corners. Like I said before, go ask your reps these questions. Do you think they are going to answer them on here? Do you really want an answer, or do you want to fatasize over a pipe dream.

"I would be willing to give up ALPA to gain the security that I believe will come with being part of SKYW".....lmmfao...then quit. What keeps you here? the money? the work rules? An ATL base? You could have all of that over there. There is a difference between questioning the union, and wanting to throw it off property for personal gain.

You sir, have no facts to back up your statements. You are unwilling to go get the answers you seek from those who have them. You are willing to throw a union off property because you think you will fare better by giving into what Skywest management wants you to do, AND YOU THINK THAT THEY WILL GIVE YOU THE SAME BENEFITS THAT ALPA HAD TO FIGHT THEM FOR????? And I'm the ignorant one?

I pity you. You are a CLOSET SCAB who doesn't have the courage to follow his heart. Do they really let you fly airplanes?

What are you doing? What, are you the closet ALPA NAZI here? You come out of the closet (6 posts total) to disagree with an individual who has exactly as much voting power as you and DARE CALL HIM A SCAB? He is your "Union brother". You sir, are an embarrasment to this profession with your 6 total posts. What are you, the alpa gestapo?

Fish, while I disagree with your posts here, thank you for having an intelligable thoughtful discussion. Holy moly.

Trojan

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

No brother of mine would vote to sell the rest of us out. Just calling a spade a spade.

 

[USCtrojan]

No brother of mine would vote to sell the rest of us out. Just calling a spade a spade.

Well, you're an idiot. Same logic. You're proving everyone else's point that you're not allowed to disagree with the "Union stance." Good job. I'm done with you.

Trojan

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

Lmao, you fellas are a little slow on the uptake. Questioning the union is one thing. Recalling, or voting for another candidate with a different philosophy is ok too. Advocating decertification, and trashing years of effort for a respectable collective bargaining agreement for personal gain because "you feel good about a company", or its intentions, is selling out on your fellow brothers/sisters. Trojan you use the term "union brother" as though you understand what it means. Clearly you do not.

 

[screamingpax]

... with your 6 total posts. \

Trojan

First of all, six total posts isn't necessarily a bad thing. It means, maybe he has a wife at home to screw and productive things to do around the house other than argue about useless stuff on FI.

Second...Where do I sign? I don't want the PBS but if not getting it means maintaining separate lists, we will continue to be the red-headed stepchild and see little to no growth until Skywest is positioned where it wants to be. JA doesn't give a crap about ALPA and there is nothing they can do about it, although they will tell you there is. I want to see ASA grow but it is a changing climate in this industry and if we continue to be stubborn about everything instead of looking at long term planning, we will be left in the dust.

Even though Skywest isn't treated as well as Southwest, the pilots over there do think that what they have is better than ALPA. And they thought that since long BEFORE the purchase of ASA. Maybe it is worth looking into. Its not Ornstein, is JA. Give me my 2% back, a SKYW contract, and I think ASA pilots will continue to have jobs and be one of the leaders in the regional industry.

Also...For those of you who think it is a bad idea to combine lists with United on the verge of taking a crap. SKYW owns the ASA Delta flying and will do with it whatever is necessary to protect their people first. If they lose United flying, we will lose Delta flying. Just my opinion. Best of luck to all.

 

[USCtrojan]

First of all, six total posts isn't necessarily a bad thing. It means, maybe he has a wife at home to screw and productive things to do around the house other than argue about useless stuff on FI.

Second...Where do I sign? I don't want the PBS but if not getting it means maintaining separate lists, we will continue to be the red-headed stepchild and see little to no growth until Skywest is positioned where it wants to be. JA doesn't give a crap about ALPA and there is nothing they can do about it, although they will tell you there is. I want to see ASA grow but it is a changing climate in this industry and if we continue to be stubborn about everything instead of looking at long term planning, we will be left in the dust.

Even though Skywest isn't treated as well as Southwest, the pilots over there do think that what they have is better than ALPA. And they thought that since long BEFORE the purchase of ASA. Maybe it is worth looking into. Its not Ornstein, is JA. Give me my 2% back, a SKYW contract, and I think ASA pilots will continue to have jobs and be one of the leaders in the regional industry.

Also...For those of you who think it is a bad idea to combine lists with United on the verge of taking a crap. SKYW owns the ASA Delta flying and will do with it whatever is necessary to protect their people first. If they lose United flying, we will lose Delta flying. Just my opinion. Best of luck to all.

Somebody who has 6 posts and just about all of them are resorting to a lead up of a smear campaign, does not lead me to believe one has a life. More like, "LOSER with an agenda." You have a vote, and right to express that vote and opinion. As far as OO taking our flying, they cannot. Read your contract. They can take a little, but not much. That is enforceable.

Anyone else want to tote the line of "Union Brotherhood" while calling a fellow colleague A SCAB? That's full hypocrisy. I'm finding quite a bit of that as of late and it's quite embarrassing.

Trojan

 

[screamingpax]

Somebody who has 6 posts and just about all of them are resorting to a lead up of a smear campaign, does not lead me to believe one has a life. More like, "LOSER with an agenda." You have a vote, and right to express that vote and opinion. As far as OO taking our flying, they cannot. Read your contract. They can take a little, but not much. That is enforceable.

Anyone else want to tote the line of "Union Brotherhood" while calling a fellow colleague A SCAB? That's full hypocrisy. I'm finding quite a bit of that as of late and it's quite embarrassing.

Trojan

Enforcable by whom?? ALPA?? That's like me getting in a fight with my reflection in the mirror. Nothing will happen except for me hurting myself. SKYW isn't going to let ASA get bigger than them. They will have snakey lawyers find a way. But lets face it anyway. United won't collapse, politicians won't let them. If giving up somethings (ALPA, line bidding, etc) means a more promising future for those of us at ASA its probably an option worth looking at.

 

[USCtrojan]

Enforcable by whom?? ALPA?? That's like me getting in a fight with my reflection in the mirror. Nothing will happen except for me hurting myself. SKYW isn't going to let ASA get bigger than them. They will have snakey lawyers find a way. But lets face it anyway. United won't collapse, politicians won't let them. If giving up somethings (ALPA, line bidding, etc) means a more promising future for those of us at ASA its probably an option worth looking at.

RLA. It's the little legal thingy by which Lawyers can enforce with the full backing of the law. It's that, you know, teeth that makes a "binding" Contract. I can understand why you would be worried, you have some catching up to do.

Trojan

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

Trojan, the Knight in shining armor. Trojan you seem awful hung up on how many posts I have. Are you the guy that goes around defending all of the tools on FI who suggest something asinine? I guess that makes you the PC Nazi. I'm glad you're here Trojan. Without you here to call the bad guys names, the "what's in it for me guys" might get trampled on.

I only have a few posts on here because I rarely ever get involved in the antics on this board. If you don't like my opinion, too bad. It is what it is. If that makes me a bad union member then so be it. However, I have zero inclination to feel "brotherly" towards fellow employees who want to whine about what the "other guys" have. Who cares? We have jobs, and a pretty good contract. I don't think we would be able to say the same thing without that contract. Thanks for being here Trojan, I don't know who else would console the malcontents.

 

[screamingpax]

RLA. It's the little legal thingy by which Lawyers can enforce with the full backing of the law. It's that, you know, teeth that makes a "binding" Contract. I can understand why you would be worried, you have some catching up to do.

Trojan

I understand the process. Point is, I don't put any faith in contracts. Any good lawyer can find ways through them.

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

Hypocrisy, is a pretty strong word. Coming from a guy who just sought to insult someone who was defending the idea of having a union on property against another person, that admittedly would want to do away with the ability to negotiate for the pilot groups' good, against a company that has repeatedly treated us like second class citizens; because that guy thought that someone was not being a sensitive "Union Brother" when calling that person out for what he is?

Hmm, wouldn't that make you the hypocrite (and for that matter the idiot)? Psst.... That was rhetorical also.

 

[FishandFly]

Snafu, please check your PM's.

 

[USCtrojan]

I understand the process. Point is, I don't put any faith in contracts. Any good lawyer can find ways through them.

Good point. Not that JA couldn't, he's quite resourceful. But it would be quite timely and very, very expensive. Doubled that last post, dammit!

Trojan