Why do ASA pilots want PBS?

[JoeMerchant]

What if your not crappy pbs system is crapier than XJT's?

Skywest bought all of XJT's contracts as well and we will get to vote in or out your pbs system again.

At XJT pilots help build the trips (well until this month) and built the lines. So we already build the lines anyways.

The only "hit" you take with PBS is vacation and other "conflicts". You can't "game" the system with PBS. Other than that however, PBS is a better way to bid as you build your line rather than the company.

I'm OK with a slight hit to vacation and conflicts to make us more competitive. I would love to get paid 75 hour to do nothing. I would love to get paid 75 hours to work half the month....I also love working for a profitable company that wins contracts and buys others rather than unprofitable and gets bought.

 

[Nevets]

The only "hit" you take with PBS is vacation and other "conflicts". You can't "game" the system with PBS. Other than that however, PBS is a better way to bid as you build your line rather than the company.

I'm OK with a slight hit to vacation and conflicts to make us more competitive. I would love to get paid 75 hour to do nothing. I would love to get paid 75 hours to work half the month....I also love working for a profitable company that wins contracts and buys others rather than unprofitable and gets bought.

Well at least you do acknowledge that you did take a "hit" if that's what you want to call a concession.

I don't mind the company gaining effeciency by getting rid of the monthly transition conflicts. Frankly, they are a pain for the pilots as well. But if the company wants to be more competitive, great, I'm all for it. But don't ask the pilots to take the hit for it.

Anyways, we are not gaming anything. The vacation rules were written with everyone knowing full well what it meant.

 

[crj567]

What if your not crappy pbs system is crapier than XJT's?

Skywest bought all of XJT's contracts as well and we will get to vote in or out your pbs system again.

At XJT pilots help build the trips (well until this month) and built the lines. So we already build the lines anyways.



PBS was your concessions whether you acknowledge it or not. You can remain competitive without asking for pilots to change their pay or work rules.

Bottom line with INC-

They will make you agree to concessions with a smile, or stuff will just wind up going elsewhere. We lost some 90 seat orders, and lost lots of flying until we learned that "playing ball" was our only option.

These guys are smart, but they are not running things to keep you happy. They will get what they want, or planes will start going away. I hate the situation as much as anyone, but it is reality.

-PBS is definitely a concession-in my view, but many at our company have become desperate. That is really why it passed in a landslide-not because it will necessarily give us better schedules. These guys can keep all their used-car sales pitches-the system is fine, but the agreement leaves HUGE loopholes the company could drive a truck through.

-I have a feeling they are warming that big rig up real good.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well at least you do acknowledge that you did take a "hit" if that's what you want to call a concession.

I don't mind the company gaining effeciency by getting rid of the monthly transition conflicts. Frankly, they are a pain for the pilots as well. But if the company wants to be more competitive, great, I'm all for it. But don't ask the pilots to take the hit for it.

Anyways, we are not gaming anything. The vacation rules were written with everyone knowing full well what it meant.

We gained certain things by agreeing to PBS including some pay. In addition we became more competitive and gained more control over building a line.

For a brief period, I was able to get 5 weeks off for each week of vacation. I loved it, but it isn't really realistic in this environment for people to get 20 weeks of vacation and still remain competitive. Unions have to realize that there is a downside to making contracts to costly. The public sector union contracts are killing us for this very reason.

I see you are a "fair tax" supporter....I'm surprised you support that and don't see the harm that unions can inflict if they aren't kept in check...

 

[punkpilot48]

We have worked hard for our contracts also. We have never voted for concessions either like you have. We don't want our QOL to take a hit either.

We also understand that we are competing with others for "lift" amongst UAL/CAL/DAL....and we understand that we must stay competitive if we want to improve our QOL.

Thats kinda a low blow.

The History of COEX is a lot different from that of ASA. Our concessions had little to do with the pilot group and a lot to do with two ex-CEO's that dont like each other and still got to walk away with tons of cash and/or a sweeter gig. The closing of branded had to do a lot with this "rivalry" as well.

XJT pilots and ASA pilots arguing on here does no good. I know thats what FI is for but lets save that for after the merger then we can give each other stupid names like 3-cups and maybe even you can get McPickle to give you some mushrooms or whatever it is he likes to do.

 

[Nevets]

We gained certain things by agreeing to PBS including some pay. In addition we became more competitive and gained more control over building a line.

For a brief period, I was able to get 5 weeks off for each week of vacation. I loved it, but it isn't really realistic in this environment for people to get 20 weeks of vacation and still remain competitive. Unions have to realize that there is a downside to making contracts to costly. The public sector union contracts are killing us for this very reason.

I see you are a "fair tax" supporter....I'm surprised you support that and don't see the harm that unions can inflict if they aren't kept in check...

If our total compensation wasn't so meager to begin with in the regional sector, I would agree with you. We do not need to bring our pay and qol life down to be competitive. If management is so smart, let them figure out how to cut costs in other places other than the meager pilot wages.

Anyways, it takes two to tango. Sure, a union wants to have all their member make a million dollars a year but it takes management to agree to it as well. That is why places like GM and Chevy can't just blame their unions.

Go FairTax!

 

[skootertrash]

We have worked hard for our contracts also. We have never voted for concessions either like you have. We don't want our QOL to take a hit either.

We also understand that we are competing with others for "lift" amongst UAL/CAL/DAL....and we understand that we must stay competitive if we want to improve our QOL.

Ok, so AFTER we take concessions we're still paid MORE than you? How hard did you work?

 

[skootertrash]

1. It's not a "crappy" PBS system. It's the best in the industry.

2. I'm not trying to cram anything down your throat, and neither is any ASA pilot. My company just bought your company. We voted for this PBS system.

3. PBS is simply you building your line out of the trips that the company builds. Line bidding is the same exact trips with the company building the lines. Wouldn't you rather build the lines than the company?

Ok, but like I said, YOU HAVEN'T TURNED IT ON YET!!!!!!!!!!

2. So you drive a pinto and your company buys some Lexus, you wanna keep driving your pinto?

3. Yes, we already do.

 

[PapaSiera]

1. It's not a "crappy" PBS system. It's the best in the industry.

2. I'm not trying to cram anything down your throat, and neither is any ASA pilot. My company just bought your company. We voted for this PBS system.

3. PBS is simply you building your line out of the trips that the company builds. Line bidding is the same exact trips with the company building the lines. Wouldn't you rather build the lines than the company?

The company doesn't build our lines. The union does.

 

[Medeco]

The company doesn't build our lines. The union does.

Really?????????? Your Scheduling committee has complete control on how trip pairings are built?

Thats awesome if its true.

 

[cybourg10]

Really?????????? Your Scheduling committee has complete control on how trip pairings are built?

Thats awesome if its true.

Pairings are built by the company and the company tells the union how many lines to build and what the average line divisor is going to be. It is crap in and so lately its been crap out.

 

[PapaSiera]

Really?????????? Your Scheduling committee has complete control on how trip pairings are built?

Thats awesome if its true.

Our union also selects our hotels. They do a great job with that.

 

[Nevets]

Pairings are built by the company and the company tells the union how many lines to build and what the average line divisor is going to be. It is crap in and so lately its been crap out.

Up until this month, it used to be that the scheduling committee and crew planning built the pairings concurrently. Then the scheduling committee would build the lines to whatever line divisor the company set. Operation green light...

 

[79%N1]

That is still different than PBS. Heck, in PBS IF you are senior enough you can hand puck the exact pairings you want ot of the pot and place them in your schedule. ( I know, big if). But in line bidding you get the whole line as is, no matter who built it - them or your union members.

 

[Nevets]

That is still different than PBS. Heck, in PBS IF you are senior enough you can hand puck the exact pairings you want ot of the pot and place them in your schedule. ( I know, big if). But in line bidding you get the whole line as is, no matter who built it - them or your union members.

I think that's the point, that its different. Can you actually see the pairings and what dates they start on before you bid for them?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I think that's the point, that its different. Can you actually see the pairings and what dates they start on before you bid for them?

Yes. You can build your own line out of the pairings if your seniority can hold the trip.

 

[skootertrash]

Yes. You can build your own line out of the pairings if your seniority can hold the trip.

Well thats great for the number 1 guy. Its also great with some other systems that do it, but at the end of the day the splat line which is derived from the company input parameters is what determins how well the system works.

Now all this is fine for an airline that has decided to give up it's vacation touch provission.

 

[ASA Captain]

Added bonus. If a senior guy has a week of vacation, normally he would have picked four day trips and dropped them into open time. Now, those trips are available for the guys junior to him to bid on. That increases everyone elses seniority below and is increased by the number of guys on vaca that week.

 

[79%N1]

Well thats great for the number 1 guy. Its also great with some other systems that do it, but at the end of the day the splat line which is derived from the company input parameters is what determins how well the system works.

Now all this is fine for an airline that has decided to give up it's vacation touch provission.

There is no vacation touch provision in a PBS system. ASA has combatted this with language that allows you to maximize your days off in a vaca month while getting paid more, and not having the system put trips up against your vacation days. We also have more ability to drop trips into open time. This will accomplish the same thing.

Almost all other airlines have PBS now! Delta, American, CAL, UAL, Skywest, Comair, Pinnacle, Mesaba, Mesa all have this. I'm not sure about American or Southwest and some others, but it is becoming industry standard. If you know anything about negotiating it will be hard to convince an arbitrator or NMB panel that you refuse to negotiate this provision in your contract when nearly everybody else has it. Not to mention, the system ASA is getting is as good as or better than most everybody elses! That is a losing fight. If XJT is bought and absorbed into ASA, you WILL have PBS. It is not as bad as you think....

 

[cybourg10]

There is no vacation touch provision in a PBS system. ASA has combatted this with language that allows you to maximize your days off in a vaca month while getting paid more, and not having the system put trips up against your vacation days. We also have more ability to drop trips into open time. This will accomplish the same thing.

Almost all other airlines have PBS now! Delta, American, CAL, UAL, Skywest, Comair, Pinnacle, Mesaba, Mesa all have this. I'm not sure about American or Southwest and some others, but it is becoming industry standard. If you know anything about negotiating it will be hard to convince an arbitrator or NMB panel that you refuse to negotiate this provision in your contract when nearly everybody else has it. Not to mention, the system ASA is getting is as good as or better than most everybody elses! That is a losing fight. If XJT is bought and absorbed into ASA, you WILL have PBS. It is not as bad as you think....

Which is why we need good note taking from you guys once PBS is up and running so we know what can be improved upon with added or different language.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

YOU HAVEN'T EVEN TURNED THE FU$*#(*ING THING ON YET!!! From YOUR LOA 11 document this is the companies escape clause.....
Wording such as "to the extent reasonably practicable and considering unilization parameters, operational productivity and perforrmance, cost and efficient use of staffing....." is not wording that can be enforced! Don't you guys understand that? We've seen our company use this against us time and time again. Don't expect us to take this up the pooper just because you did!

The Company and the Association recognize that a variety of
productive trips are essential for the best overall PBS bid run solution.
To the extent reasonably practicable and considering the Company's
utilization parameters, operational productivity and performance, costs
and efficient use of staffing, the Company will construct trips as​

follows:

You know what that spells?
Tater stretching of epic proportions. You guys will be able to have a 100 car train U-turn inside your tater without touching the sides. With language like that BH and Co will completely destroy your sphincters. Flying is slow, expect 75:01 lines, lots of flying, expect 99:59 lines. Ask me how I know, been there done that, and oh yes I bid in the top 25% of the seniority list. With that kind of language you are phukked, PHUKKED like you will never even imagine. I didn't think that they would dare use that language again, AND they DID!
Wow!
PBR

 

[crj567]

You know what that spells?
Tater stretching of epic proportions. You guys will be able to have a 100 car train U-turn inside your tater without touching the sides. With language like that BH and Co will completely destroy your sphincters. Flying is slow, expect 75:01 lines, lots of flying, expect 99:59 lines. Ask me how I know, been there done that, and oh yes I bid in the top 25% of the seniority list. With that kind of language you are phukked, PHUKKED like you will never even imagine. I didn't think that they would dare use that language again, AND they DID!
Wow!
PBR

Yep

This is where the weak spot lies... I cannot imagine how our people were dumb enough to write this crap so loosely. The company can (and wil) do any damn thing it wishes-and we will not like it.

 

[crj567]

There is no vacation touch provision in a PBS system. ASA has combatted this with language that allows you to maximize your days off in a vaca month while getting paid more, and not having the system put trips up against your vacation days. We also have more ability to drop trips into open time. This will accomplish the same thing.

Almost all other airlines have PBS now! Delta, American, CAL, UAL, Skywest, Comair, Pinnacle, Mesaba, Mesa all have this. I'm not sure about American or Southwest and some others, but it is becoming industry standard. If you know anything about negotiating it will be hard to convince an arbitrator or NMB panel that you refuse to negotiate this provision in your contract when nearly everybody else has it. Not to mention, the system ASA is getting is as good as or better than most everybody elses! That is a losing fight. If XJT is bought and absorbed into ASA, you WILL have PBS. It is not as bad as you think....

Get back to me when your vacation month comes around and the only trips you can hold are low-value 4 days.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

OMG,
I thought the SKYW pilots were gullible, you should sue ALPA for basic incompetence, they wrote loopholes tou could fly a 74 through! Haysoos E. Christo, you guys were Roofied.
Wow, I am speechless!
PBR
SKYW pilots gave BH some aces, you gave him all the jokers, you will love his 5 aces vs your 7 high.

 

[PapaSiera]

Don't come on here and lecture the XJT pilot group as if we don't deserve the same QOL as the majors do. If you think you are a 2nd class citizen, then you will be always treated that way. XJT pilots want to hang on to their QOL Can you blame them? How about instead of helping your management fight against us, you help us so that we can all live better lives. We would like nothing more than to have 1 unified pilot group and call you brothers, but you are going to have to step up.


Oh, and by the way.... since JoeMerchant started taking cheap shots below the belt....

ASA isn't buying anything, and you guys know it. SkyWest has all of the money and does all of the buying. If SKW wants to make this look real, they should at least be giving ASA the $90 million that XJT has in cash. But they’re not. Like I said, ASA isn't buying anything.

 

[skootertrash]

You know what that spells?
Tater stretching of epic proportions. You guys will be able to have a 100 car train U-turn inside your tater without touching the sides. With language like that BH and Co will completely destroy your sphincters. Flying is slow, expect 75:01 lines, lots of flying, expect 99:59 lines. Ask me how I know, been there done that, and oh yes I bid in the top 25% of the seniority list. With that kind of language you are phukked, PHUKKED like you will never even imagine. I didn't think that they would dare use that language again, AND they DID!
Wow!
PBR

Thank you!!! I'm glad someone can acknowledge the big furry monster sitting in the corner. Just like you said, if the company needs the average to run high, it will and everyone will be at 90+ hours...vacation month or not. Whats the credit difference between a high a low....4 hours? What a joke!!!!! I can't believe these guys are so sold on this crap when they haven't even turned it on!!!

 

[crj567]

Thank you!!! I'm glad someone can acknowledge the big furry monster sitting in the corner. Just like you said, if the company needs the average to run high, it will and everyone will be at 90+ hours...vacation month or not. Whats the credit difference between a high a low....4 hours? What a joke!!!!! I can't believe these guys are so sold on this crap when they haven't even turned it on!!!

Not all of us are. I have seen through this B.S. from the very beginning. It is amazing that more people don't Sure-the system is well done, but the QOL completely is in the company's hands now. Like you say, they can run everyone at 90+ hours if they choose, or they can design crap trips and run people at 70 hours and the system will give you exactly the same number of days off.

People believe what they need to believe. Most people around here think this will allow the place get all sorts of new flying and things will improve across the board. I don't see that happening-I just think we gave away the farm for absolutely nothing. Our agreement gives the company way too much power.

 

[the palm]

I really don't understand the argument against PBS at ASA. Even if the trips are crap I would rather be able to try and build my own line with those crap trips than have the company build crappy lines with the same crappy trips.

But I might just be being selfish because I think my ass is finally getting off reserve with PBS.

 

[crj567]

I really don't understand the argument against PBS at ASA. Even if the trips are crap I would rather be able to try and build my own line with those crap trips than have the company build crappy lines with the same crappy trips.

But I might just be being selfish because I think my ass is finally getting off reserve with PBS.

The argument is simple:

The comapny has way too much control. If they want to set the TLV really high and they build crap trips-you will get no time off. This effect is even worse in a vacation month. Our union gave them ALL the cards. If they choose to make nice trips, this system will work out great. If they choose to put out crap (in the interest of "efficiency,") then it will be a huge QOL-destroying disaster. I am still hoping things don't work out as poorly as I imagine, but I think any chance of that will be a long shot-especially using history as a guide.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

That's the joke of PBS, no transparency at all. With hard lines you could see exactly how the flying was broken up, with pBS, you can see nothing. Enjoy working more weekends, holidays and sweet 4 day trips that end the day before your trip starts and start the day after your vacation ends. Yeah you can see the pairings prior to bidding, but that don't mean anything, your seniority means nothing, that's the majik of pBS. There was a month where the #1 CA in DEN who commutes bids commutable 4 day trips, got a mix mash of locals, 2 day and 3day trips, the minister of PBS(KH), nor any of his minions could explain what went wrong. So even JoeM is going to have whole months that will suck beyond any thing he has done since he was last on reserve. The only way PBS would be acceptable would be if the company gave the pilot group a book of city pairs every month and the pilots ran their own PBS software on their own server, but BH won't give that level of control up without an epic fight. Oh yeah, Mr palm, if you are on reserve, you will bid away from the bottom lines, 16hour 4days followed or preceded by locals or CDOs. I have had 4day trips that finished at 0930 lcl time with a CDO stapled to the end that started 9:45 later, and I bid very high. PBS is the companies wet dream and the pilots are their jizz rag. pBS allows them to do whatever they want without having to answer for anything that their retarded minions do. I would give 2months of CA pay to go back to hard lines, yeah that's a pre tax total of 15K. BH is very astute about some things and stupid about other things, he knows how to work pBS into the mix having done that to us, expect your reserve lines to drop, but you will still be on reserve.
PBR