Why do ASA pilots want PBS?

[Tarzan]

-Not too hard to see these schedules through rose-colored glasses when you never fly-is it?

Who gets away with not flying these days? Even Hall has go fly. BTW, I block over 85 a month and credit over 100. Pretty cheap shot there, Spoon.

 

[ASA Captain]

(3.86 x 11) + 28 = 70.46

That is all that is required to get a legal line with vacation low and virtual credits to 4. You will get paid guarantee because if you get a legal line (within window) you get guarantee.

This means 19-20 days off. If you do allow single days off you could stretch that vacation block to nearly three weeks. And, if you're smart, you will bid trips with higher credit than min day and shave off another day or two required to get you to 70-75.

 

[the palm]

Some people will figure out how to manipulate PBS to their advantage and some people won't. My guess is those that don't bother to figure it out will get screwed and complain.

 

[Dannone]

Considering I used to hold 3 on 4 off now to get a pure 4 on 3 off without working at least 1 weak of 5 or 6 days every month is impossible, I will say it again QOL at ASA has gone backwards since they figured out every loop hole in our contract. Remember when we were all so happy about max 4 red arrow days a month?? I was trying to explain why PBS passed. That is why, I must have heard a hundred people say we are gonna get it anyway and the lines can't get worse than they are now. The question was why did ASA vote in PBS? That is the answer. We have a chance to gain some things back now, but only if all the groups involved get on the same page. Stop thinking about me, do what's best for us, and maybe the whole industry gets better by default!!!!

 

[mckpickle]

Would you guys mind sharing what sort of "rules" you have in your PBS? I'm currious. Thanks.

 

[crj567]

Would you guys mind sharing what sort of "rules" you have in your PBS? I'm currious. Thanks.

Well-

If you take in to account that nearly every paragraph is preceded by stuff like:

-"In the interest of cost-effectiveness, staffing levels, and operational requirements, the company may XXXXXXXXXX"

-There are very few effective rules and restrictions. What you have to go by is not the intent, but the many, many, many exclusions and outs we have given the company.

-I can assure you that the company will easily find tons of "loopholes" in this agreement-so many that I would almost say we would be as well off without an agreement at all.

-We wasted millions in dues crafting an effectively useless agreement. In my judgement, this PBS agreement is by far the most open-ended and useless contract I have ever seen.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Yup, like the rest of the contract. Plenty of 'opt-out' provisions in virtually every section. But look at it this way, the crack team had five years to work on their golf tans

 

[Nevets]

y'all don't forget about our 1 percent pay raises because of PBS! oh, and our min day goes up from 3.75 to 3.86 I think it was

By the way, when SKW tried to buy XJT two years ago, they told us PBS equated to a 4% concession.

I have been turning 1 week of vacation into 5 weeks of vacation the past 2 years here at ASA. That isn't going to happen anymore with PBS. I voted FOR PBS knowing that. I understand the reality we are under in this competitive environment. It was nice while it lasted, but I can't really expect to get 20 weeks of vacation and still work for a profitable company...Reality sucks sometimes.....

Do you feel we get paid enough or fairly for what we do?

To the XJT pilots, let me clue you in a little bit about how things work here at SKYW INC.
We have union and non union pilots. The minute the ASA pilots don't play ball, or if ASA doesn't control costs, then airplanes will be transferred to SKYW and ASA will furlough. Thats why we have PBS, thats why 700's were transferred to SKYW when we were in contract negotiations. PBS is an attempt to help the company control costs, and keep ASA costs down. Hopefully, XJT will win the seniority issue and combine all 3 carriers, otherwise, ASA and SKYW will continue to be whipsawed against each other, and the union carrier never wins that fight.

And why do more people don't know or understand this?

SKYW Inc. has been good for ASA. We had it really rough here before they came. ALPA couldn't help us with our prior managements.

It's in our best interest to work together and try to become leaders in the industry.

SKYW Inc. could be good for all three of us if they would follow the clear intent of our contract. Anyways, its not ALPA's responsibility to do management's job. If you have a crappy or money losing operation, its management's fault, not ALPA's. Now lets work together for one list and really become leaders in the industry and profession!

God Bless California, land of Reagan!

I'm not going to argue about not getting brand scope anymore....It isn't going to happen...I'm accepting it and moving on. Let's compete and get as much as we can then while you sit on the sidelines and cry like a baby...:crying:

Curious, how is brand scope different from mainline scoping in all jet flying in regards to you being against that?

You're pipe dreaming! I don't care what your MEC tells you all about not knowing about the deal beforehand and that it violates your contract. Of course they have to tell you that and appear to be empathetic to the pilots concerns. They most definitely knew about the deal and won't be going to court over anything. How much do you have and what do you own? You want to make a wager?

The ASA pilots said the same thing when Skywest, Inc bought them. Pilots at ASA said it's a violation of their contract not to be one list with Skywest. Their MEC made a few comments and did nothing.

Either your MEC sold you out or they realize they can't do squat about it. I'll let you know if I see your MEC on Jerry's houseboat at Lake Powell. Southern Utah is pretty nice most of the year you know.

This will be for lawyers to decide. I'm sure both sides are geared up for it and we will just have to wait and see. Hopefully we can all be part on ONE big happy Skywest Airlines company!

That is why, I must have heard a hundred people say we are gonna get it anyway and the lines can't get worse than they are now.

I've heard that sentiment at XJT. The QOL has gone down in the last couple of years. Now with integration with only ASA, many people say it can't get any worse than it is now anyways.

 

[wms]

......

 

[wms]

Lets not forget.
1. No Initial Line Improvement Window
2. No open time
3. Can't see what you are bidding on. If you are a commuter and want 4 4day trips, it could give you all 2 days and day trips.

If you are a senior guy at XJT with 4 weeks of vacation, you can turn it into 12 weeks per year. That is an entire 3 months off people!

Numbers 2 and 3 are wrong.

We've had some decent trips, but crew planning builds them into miserable lines. I did not want 400 relief lines, but I can do better than crew planning at building these trips into a tolerable schedule. The thing that sold it for me was dropping/picking up portions of trips, limits on 4-day trips, stricter limits on reserves, resevres bidding all their days off, etc. And like always, if they use it to mess with QOL it affects performance and things turn around again.

In the fall I was on reserve, now I'm very senior and I liked it in both situations. It's the first thing I've ever voted in favor of and I'll figure out how to use it and make it work for me, which is an option I didn't have before.

 

[Optimax200]

well, after reading 6 pages of this crap........glad I deferred the recall.

Now to get drunk

 

[79%N1]

Some insights on ASA's voting in PBS. It passed for a few reasons. First off, many believe that to remain competitive in an age where regionals are forced to compete for flying, ASA would need PBS to remain competitive, and bid for new contracts going forward and keeping the ones we have. We were currently the only DCI carrier without it. Most ASA pilots believed that PBS would be included most certainly in the next section 6, and that it would be difficult to convince any arbitrator or NMB that we are reasonable for holding out against it, since every other DCI carrier had it. Management all but stated they would not agree to any contract that didn't include it. Maybe they would, maybe not. Who knows.
At any rate, it was perfectly clear that negotiating now would provide us with certain benefits that sec 6 likely would not. For voting it in now, we got some contractual gains that we may not have gotten later, not the least of which is picking the vendor and gaining industry leading PBS language and rules. The system is capable of things that all others is not.

In addition, ASA got certain contractual gains and pay increases (albeit small) that benefit us now. Pay, addition to min day and scheduling and trip swapping and dropping language that we did not have before. It seemed fair to make these gains and help the company remain competitive for the long-term viability of this company, especially since it was coming anyway in the next contract.

Having seen it in action, it is a pretty cool bidding system. Once you know how to use it, it seems pretty cool. You can do MANY things bidding wise that you could never dream of in line bidding. Instead of just demanding that you never have it, just chill out and see what it is all about. You may even like it.

 

[ApocketA's_145]

Maybe im one of the lucky ones... here at XJT as a hardline holder... I have not talked to Crew scheduling on the phone in over a year!! I know what im bidding for, I know the overnights that I am looking for, I know the days that I want to bid off. I consistantly trade trips for the better, I can get multiple days off in a row with our line improvement window. Usually, do 3 on 4 off... I sometimes with coverage in the line improvement window can trade a 4 day with a 2 day and have more days off a month and pickup when a trip looks good enough to work. The flexibility with a line is great! Maybe im just the lucky ones then... would love to know more about a good PBS system though, but hard to see how a great PBS system can be better than what I have been able to do for years.

 

[Medeco]

Maybe im one of the lucky ones... here at XJT as a hardline holder... I have not talked to Crew scheduling on the phone in over a year!! I know what im bidding for, I know the overnights that I am looking for, I know the days that I want to bid off. I consistantly trade trips for the better, I can get multiple days off in a row with our line improvement window. Usually, do 3 on 4 off... I sometimes with coverage in the line improvement window can trade a 4 day with a 2 day and have more days off a month and pickup when a trip looks good enough to work. The flexibility with a line is great! Maybe im just the lucky ones then... would love to know more about a good PBS system though, but hard to see how a great PBS system can be better than what I have been able to do for years.

If you are senior enough to do all that, then in theory, you should be able to do the same with possibly MORE options in our PBS system.

The question remains what kind of games will the company impose, like the red arrow days, that will work around the intent of the PBS language.

Time will tell.

 

[ApocketA's_145]

If you are senior enough to do all that, then in theory, you should be able to do the same with possibly MORE options in our PBS system.

The question remains what kind of games will the company impose, like the red arrow days, that will work around the intent of the PBS language.

Time will tell.

yea... im not that senior either, as long as u hold a line, then its great! But, it sounds like you have a good system as well. This is where we come together and make it good. Sounds like we can bring good things to the table and you guys can as well and combine them. Can you drop trips down to like 20 days off and then look at opentime later and pickup trips as you please? thats what i like... for example, lets say you get a 4 on 3 off schedule.. can u take that 4 day and make it a 2 day if you please and have a week where you fly 2 days and have 5 straight days off? thats what i do here and i dont want to lose that flexibility and if i choose to work alot, i would pick up...

 

[79%N1]

No. You cannot do anything close to that here, nor will you be able to after the integration.

 

[ASABound]

79% N1, that is what we need to shoot for. XJET folks, can you just drop a trip electronically , without begging a chief pilot or crew scheduler ?

 

[LazyLightnin']

I'm sick of xjet guys swinging their dicks and talking about how great their contract is. On FI and in person.

 

[buscap]

I'm sick of xjet guys swinging their dicks and talking about how great their contract is. On FI and in person.

The best revenge would be to better their contract.

Ya think?

 

[LazyLightnin']

The best revenge would be to better their contract.

Ya think?

Who said I wanted revenge, sweetums?