Why do ASA pilots want PBS?

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

We definitely need you ASA guys (mostly junior ones holding lines and on reserve) to be taking notes over this PBS thing once it goes live. We could use some of that real world knowledge come contract time. I could care less how it affects the top 10% in base, I am more concerned over what it does to the other 90%.

Texan what do you mean it looks like we might win the battle with SKYW? From what I hear it is the other way around.

God bless Texas indeed!

Just saying what I'm hearing from union folks. Call your reps. And I sent you a PM regarding ASA's pbs system.

 

[mckpickle]

Papa Siera,

RELAX.
First off it's obvious you don't know shiit about PBS.
Second, quit pis$in off the ASA guys. They're buying us remember! Lets not pis$ in the pool before we test the water and give them a reason to wanna go buy staplers.
Third, there are going to be 4200 pilots to vote on a CBA. It's gonna have to be pretty sweet to get a yes vote. People are working on it. We'll get the job done and if you don't like it then vote no. Just please stop pis$ing them off. You're making it look like you're calling them idiots. We haven't walked a mile in their shoes.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you buy this "brand scope" load, show me one example of where it has worked-ever (anywhere in the world.) Come on, Hoss-pony up!

My point is that it sounds nice, but so does communism. It is impossible.

-Never worked-never will.

Fine....Then compete with everyone else....Your choice...

 

[CFI2766]

Papa Siera,

RELAX.
First off it's obvious you don't know shiit about PBS.
Second, quit pis$in off the ASA guys. They're buying us remember! Lets not pis$ in the pool before we test the water and give them a reason to wanna go buy staplers.
Third, there are going to be 4200 pilots to vote on a CBA. It's gonna have to be pretty sweet to get a yes vote. People are working on it. We'll get the job done and if you don't like it then vote no. Just please stop pis$ing them off. You're making it look like you're calling them idiots. We haven't walked a mile in their shoes.

I don't belive that a staple will ever be required, or sought, but otherwise, why can't more people have the logic of this guy? Bravo, Sir, Bravo.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

I don't belive that a staple will ever be required, or sought, but otherwise, why can't more people have the logic of this guy? Bravo, Sir, Bravo.

He's a very well respected guy by us as well.

 

[crj567]

Fine....Then compete with everyone else....Your choice...

From what I understand, SWA doesn't have PBS, and they seem to compete a lot better than most...

 

[Tarzan]

From what I understand, SWA doesn't have PBS, and they seem to compete a lot better than most...

They will have it eventually as well. Their union leadership came out to look at ASA's PBS stuff.

 

[hotwing]

I'll be honest, my post makes me look like more of a dick than I meant to be.. I went to edit it but you quoted me already. Hope you take no offense.

It's going to be a bumpy road ahead. XJT pilots as a whole largely against PBS. I've met maybe two guys in the last year that would even consider it. But this is for sure, we all need to work together.

:laugh: -- funny! glad to see this... hang in there Hoss... It will all get worked out... Wishing the best for you all... Seriously...

 

[hotwing]

So you ASA boys that argue in favor of PBS, how much vacation do you get a year? My last week of vacation, I was off May 23 - June 19th with ONE WEEK of vacation, and with a few picked up BRO overnights from IAH (2 hours flying for 7.5 hours pay) I got near 90-hours pay both months... Can your PBS do that?

PBS is a concessionary bidding system, plain and simple.

Guys,

On this PBS issue... We (CAL) have PBS and for the most part 99.9 percent, it blows... But, once you have it, good luck unloading it... But, just remember, PBS is only as good as the contract that the perimeters of the computer software are written to follow. For example, our contract at CAL is so weak that our PBS software is written to follow the perimeters of the contract and it blows... If you have a strongly worded contract and with all bases covered, PBS will follow the perimeters of that said contract... It is not about PBS... It is a tool that only follows your contracts perimeters... We got screwed at CAL with a recessionary contract and thus PBS is to be considered a give back, but again, I can't emphasize this enough, it is due to the contract, not the software... Texan Aviator is right though, the guys at XJT have a much better deal... Hell, they have a better deal than we do at CAL...

 

[buscap]

Well, so far our system (contract, workrules, software) looks to be better than anything out there, but there's plenty of time in the next few months to find out.

If it sucks, I'm sure we'll be in lockstep with you guys trying to get it off property. This is actually a great opportunity to evaluate it and make improvements or even chuck it, depending how bad the company wants the merger. And like i said before. if it sucks, you will definitely hear about it.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

The reason management wants pbs is because it's cheaper. That lower cost is comming 100% from the pilot group. (I suppose theres a few less people working in planning to build lines but that's not a big saver.) So the cost savings is comming by either cutting your pay check or by making you work more days allowing them to have less pilots on property. I know xjt's planning dept. said it would be cheaper to pay 150% pay for open time pick ups 365 day's a year than to actually staff the airline.

Regaurless of how leading edge fantatic your pbs system is mgmt only wants it because it's cheaper. Cheaper how? True I dont know the first thing about ASA's pbs, though I might have to soon, but I dont know how it can be cheaper and better? Please enlighten me on what I'm missing?

Edit: Does ASA's pbs system build your line around your week of vacation or does it award your line then drop any trips that landed on your vacation week? If it is the second then what happens to your line value if you end up with 40 hours flown and 28 hours of vacation? I'm on vacation now, (xjet) I'm working 8 days total this month with 19 days off in a row and still getting 83 hours of pay. Schedules like that is the reason I do this job. If I have to work 50 weeks a year with two weeks off I may as well go work in a bank. Before anyone jumps the "regular job comparison," my first grade teacher "underpaid overworked" wife made more money and had more days off than I did after 5 years with xjet.

 

[Erlanger]

I hope we're able to force them to merge all three, word is it looks like we may.

You're pipe dreaming! I don't care what your MEC tells you all about not knowing about the deal beforehand and that it violates your contract. Of course they have to tell you that and appear to be empathetic to the pilots concerns. They most definitely knew about the deal and won't be going to court over anything. How much do you have and what do you own? You want to make a wager?

The ASA pilots said the same thing when Skywest, Inc bought them. Pilots at ASA said it's a violation of their contract not to be one list with Skywest. Their MEC made a few comments and did nothing.

Either your MEC sold you out or they realize they can't do squat about it. I'll let you know if I see your MEC on Jerry's houseboat at Lake Powell. Southern Utah is pretty nice most of the year you know.

 

[Tarzan]

You're pipe dreaming! I don't care what your MEC tells you all about not knowing about the deal beforehand and that it violates your contract. Of course they have to tell you that and appear to be empathetic to the pilots concerns. They most definitely knew about the deal and won't be going to court over anything. How much do you have and what do you own? You want to make a wager?

The ASA pilots said the same thing when Skywest, Inc bought them. Pilots at ASA said it's a violation of their contract not to be one list with Skywest. Their MEC made a few comments and did nothing.

Either your MEC sold you out or they realize they can't do squat about it. I'll let you know if I see your MEC on Jerry's houseboat at Lake Powell. Southern Utah is pretty nice most of the year you know.

Generally, you make informed posts. You've missed the mark entirely this time. I am sure one or two that signed confidentiality agrees knew beforehand but it wasn't very long before the deal was announced. Has Inc done their homework as far as merger stuff? I will bet my bottom dollar it was examined but the wild card is the NMB and how they will decide if this deal is tossed out for single carrier. Go Jet and TSA as the most recent. I'd doubt it would go the pilots way but you never know.

ASA pilots may have said but the MEC never made the promise or even threatened to do it. The cards where not in favor of it happening then and there was no language in the contract to bind a holding company to it.

I haven't seen or read anything that would indicate the XJT MEC is saying anything of that nature either. They do have language in the scope for it but I don't think it will be enough to win.

 

[COEX-FO]

You're pipe dreaming! I don't care what your MEC tells you all about not knowing about the deal beforehand and that it violates your contract. Of course they have to tell you that and appear to be empathetic to the pilots concerns. They most definitely knew about the deal and won't be going to court over anything. How much do you have and what do you own? You want to make a wager?

The ASA pilots said the same thing when Skywest, Inc bought them. Pilots at ASA said it's a violation of their contract not to be one list with Skywest. Their MEC made a few comments and did nothing.

Either your MEC sold you out or they realize they can't do squat about it. I'll let you know if I see your MEC on Jerry's houseboat at Lake Powell. Southern Utah is pretty nice most of the year you know.

I vote for both! Your post is spot on!!

 

[Tarzan]

Please enlighten me on what I'm missing?

Edit: Does ASA's pbs system build your line around your week of vacation or does it award your line then drop any trips that landed on your vacation week? If it is the second then what happens to your line value if you end up with 40 hours flown and 28 hours of vacation? I'm on vacation now, (xjet) I'm working 8 days total this month with 19 days off in a row and still getting 83 hours of pay. Schedules like that is the reason I do this job. If I have to work 50 weeks a year with two weeks off I may as well go work in a bank. Before anyone jumps the "regular job comparison," my first grade teacher "underpaid overworked" wife made more money and had more days off than I did after 5 years with xjet.

You are missing the language in the document. It will NOTHING like CAL's. Unlike theirs which was forced on them, ASA was under no obligation to negotiate for PBS. Much better environment to get stuff for it than in contract talks where BOTH sides must show good faith. It would be far to easy to have PBS crammed up our collective butts by the company in contract talks. So the gamble is, get the right system in now and then fight to patch up holes later on. It is far difficult to get a release to strike today especially over a bidding interface. We could end parked indefinitely.

All the chest thumpers railing about the union bent over, yadda, yadda... Don't have a clue as to how the game gets played. The RLA slnts the game towards the company heavily. There are rules and the union can't just do anything it wants.

As far as vacation, these guys telling me that they will only work four days and get guarantee are likely pulling our legs. Will you be able to get the entire month off with PBS here? No but you'll still be able to stretch it two or two and half weeks.

 

[Dannone]

I don't think complaints are necessarily relative to seniority. Life was way better at ASA 2 years ago and I have gone up a little in seniority. Even the most senior guys have seen their QOL go down. The reason PBS passed at ASA is because the schedules have gotten worse and worse over the past few years. Gotten to the point that even 4 on 3 off is hard to get. PBS seems like it may give more flexibility. Who knows how it will actually work.

 

[crj567]

You are missing the language in the document. It will NOTHING like CAL's. Unlike theirs which was forced on them, ASA was under no obligation to negotiate for PBS. Much better environment to get stuff for it than in contract talks where BOTH sides must show good faith. It would be far to easy to have PBS crammed up our collective butts by the company in contract talks. So the gamble is, get the right system in now and then fight to patch up holes later on. It is far difficult to get a release to strike today especially over a bidding interface. We could end parked indefinitely.

All the chest thumpers railing about the union bent over, yadda, yadda... Don't have a clue as to how the game gets played. The RLA slnts the game towards the company heavily. There are rules and the union can't just do anything it wants.

As far as vacation, these guys telling me that they will only work four days and get guarantee are likely pulling our legs. Will you be able to get the entire month off with PBS here? No but you'll still be able to stretch it two or two and half weeks.[/QUOTE]


-"Misleading" is about the best way I can describe this post. Considering a 75 hour guarantee is what people expect, would you care to explain how you plan to stretch this to two-and-a-half weeks (given the complete crap trips we have had lately,) and what you would get paid?

-Not too hard to see these schedules through rose-colored glasses when you never fly-is it?

 

[CFI2766]

I don't think complaints are necessarily relative to seniority. Life was way better at ASA 2 years ago and I have gone up a little in seniority. Even the most senior guys have seen their QOL go down. The reason PBS passed at ASA is because the schedules have gotten worse and worse over the past few years. Gotten to the point that even 4 on 3 off is hard to get. PBS seems like it may give more flexibility. Who knows how it will actually work.

Come on man, 4 on 3 off is not 'hard' to get if you are a lineholder under the current system at ASA. No question the reserves are getting killed, and, frankly, there appear to more JM assignments than in other times, but no one is getting awarded lines of 5 on 2 off.

We have the best work rules of any PBS in the industry. We are two steps ahead of Delta, and several steps ahead of Continental. The PBS system gives more flexibility than the current line bidding system. Also, VACATION is not killed with ASA's PBS software. It takes a pretty good understanding of how it works, but take a look at the Vacation Low option and the virtual credits. You will still be able to accomplish a killer vacation, or, make a killing on your paycheck.

 

[CFI2766]

-"Misleading" is about the best way I can describe this post. Considering a 75 hour guarantee is what people expect, would you care to explain how you plan to stretch this to two-and-a-half weeks (given the complete crap trips we have had lately,) and what you would get paid?

-Not too hard to see these schedules through rose-colored glasses when you never fly-is it?[/QUOTE]


Yes. Do it right, as in actually read the documentation, and you will still get your guarantee.

Never fly? I'm going to bet the guy you are quoting flies more than you do. Try again.

 

[buscap]

As far as vacation, these guys telling me that they will only work four days and get guarantee are likely pulling our legs. Will you be able to get the entire month off with PBS here? No but you'll still be able to stretch it two or two and half weeks.[/QUOTE]


-"Misleading" is about the best way I can describe this post. Considering a 75 hour guarantee is what people expect, would you care to explain how you plan to stretch this to two-and-a-half weeks (given the complete crap trips we have had lately,) and what you would get paid?

-Not too hard to see these schedules through rose-colored glasses when you never fly-is it?

You may be right about ASA PBS sucking butt, but :laugh: you may also be wrong and the point is you just don't know yet. The thing got voted in and we're gonna use it, like it or not. The Express Jet guys will have a chance to see it in action. We can then make improvements or maybe even chuck it.

Now your mistrust of the system is most likely based on the company's abuse of some of the weak contract language we presently have, and that is a valid frustration. But none of us has any reason to know if ASA PBS sucks at this time. Perhaps you don't like the 3 practice bid cycle thing, but it's really not a big deal.

Beeeechhhh Beeeechhh Beeeeccchhh all you want, but you gotta admit, it's not an informed opinion yet. Talk to us in six months. I'll either be beeeeeching right along with you or we'll be glad the system doesn't suck more than what we have now.