Why do ASA pilots want PBS?

[wms]

79,
I am bitter about my job, I actually have a pretty good life. What I am, is a student of life and make no mistake life ain't fair, just ask a zebra being eaten alive by hyenas. We are the zebras in life and corporate execs are the hyenas in life. If you think BH is ok, ask a SKYW pilot who has been around awhile how the D.Douglas case was handled, that one had BH fingerprints all over the harpoon stuck in Dons back. That case went to court and the judge ruled in favor of D.D. To the tune of LOTS, and ordered D.D. Back to work. There was perjury proved via concealed recordings. There are a few newspaper articles about it. I bid very high and really have nothing to gain from growth or any such foolishness, I ain't moving, or commuting, so it's all smoke and mirrors. Read Sun Tsu, knowing your opponent will/can give you advantage, BH has been a pilot and worked on both sides of the job, so he has insight and experience that you guys don't. T. Fizer has been banished to the SKYW Siberian hinterlands for the D.Douglas case. This isn't about ASA pilots vs SKYW pilots, it's about pilots vs execs, I just don't want you guys to make the same mistakes we did. On the other hand I am glad to be rid of him, I just feel that, pilot to pilot I owe you a brief on that "tricky approach", what you do with that brief is up to you.
PBR

The fact that BH moved from SKYW to ASA and the issues that have been brought up now and in the past stayed at SKYW show that BH wasn't the one responsible. The people he worked for made decisions and BH was the messenger.

Maybe being an ALPA company helps, but I can tell you that BH works with us and gives the frontline employees the support they need to be successful. The string of ex-asa employees from ED to the deice debacle are proof.

 

[Nevets]

Almost all other airlines have PBS now! Delta, American, CAL, UAL, Skywest, Comair, Pinnacle, Mesaba, Mesa all have this. I'm not sure about American or Southwest and some others, but it is becoming industry standard. If you know anything about negotiating it will be hard to convince an arbitrator or NMB panel that you refuse to negotiate this provision in your contract when nearly everybody else has it. Not to mention, the system ASA is getting is as good as or better than most everybody elses! That is a losing fight. If XJT is bought and absorbed into ASA, you WILL have PBS. It is not as bad as you think....

Yeah, I get that and understand that that is why you decided to bargain for PBS outside of section 6. But just because you don't accept PBS in negotiations doesn't mean a mediator will not accept it if they are shown what else was traded in favor of line bidding.

I doubt XJT pilots will vote for any kind of industry leading PBS system without making it pay and QOL neutral.

I really don't understand the argument against PBS at ASA. Even if the trips are crap I would rather be able to try and build my own line with those crap trips than have the company build crappy lines with the same crappy trips.

Well at XJT, even if you get stuck with a crappy line, you can turn it into a good line during our line improvement window. So there is no benefit there for XJT guys.

I'm guessing there will be a combination of nice trips and crap trips. The senior will do well while the junior pilots suffer. How is that different from the way it is now? I just hope it takes those senior guys longer to figure out how to use the system and us junior guys can benefit at their expense for once

The difference at XJT is that if you don't like your line, you can improve it during the initial line improvement window.

What "cheap shot below the belt" did I take? It's clear that there are two different beliefs among the XJT pilots. I welcome those who think like cybourg10. My beef was with Nevets lecturing us about our PBS vote while admitting that you voted for pay concessions that weren't needed so as to "remain competitive". That isn't a "cheap shot", rather it is a inconveniant truth that some want to brush under the rug.

I would like to see this work as I think it benefits ALL of us by making us larger and stronger in a tough environment and a tough industry. However don't come hear and lecture ASA pilots about PBS while trying to ignore the concessions YOUR pilot group voted for. That dog won't hunt....

I didn't mean to lecture you. Just trying to point out that we took concessions already and not going to want to take another one by getting your PBS. My beef was with ASA guys telling us to shove it if we didn't like it since ASA is buying XJT.

We are not ignoring the fact we took concessions. We know about it twice a month. The fact that we took concessions is the very reason why PBS without pay and QOL neutrality wont fly with XJT guys.

Those dogs wont hunt...

Our CEO was in a pi**ing match with CAL's CEO, and that caused us to have to sign a below cost CPA where we lost money. What's your excuse? I thought you guys make gobbs of money for Jerry.

That is false. What caused the XJT to sign a cpa below cost was SKW whipsawing the XJT pilots. CAL told our CEO to either give them the cpa SKW had negotiated or get the 12 months notice. The cpa SKW negotiated with CAL not only included synergy cost savings but also took into consideration a 16% paycut JA wanted to give us in order to bring us into parity with SKW pilot compensation so that we can be cost competative when CAL put all 205 A/C up for bid again in 12 months. JA said himself his intention was to put up three bids for those 205 A/C. One from XJT, one from ASA, and one from SKW...but it was up to us if we wanted to be cost competitive. That on top of the fact that he was planning on taking 35 of XJT A/C and transferring them to SKW for their pilots to fly while furloughing 700 of ours and giving them preferential interviews at SKW.

We were decimated thanks to JA.

So if D Douglas did write F ------ on company property, and I'm not saying he did, should he have been fired?

Do you think someone should be fired for writing F_____ on company property?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah, I get that and understand that that is why you decided to bargain for PBS outside of section 6. But just because you don't accept PBS in negotiations doesn't mean a mediator will not accept it if they are shown what else was traded in favor of line bidding.

I doubt XJT pilots will vote for any kind of industry leading PBS system without making it pay and QOL neutral.

In negotiations, both sides push for things that are "industry standard" when it suits them. PBS has become industry standard. To hold out against PBS would mean some serious hits in other pay/QOL issues...sorry but that's how the game works. Giving into PBS during section 6 would probably result in a worse version of PBS for the same reason. We got a better one than anyone else who did it...because we did outside of section 6. You can play Chess or Checkers....management plays Chess while many times we try and play Checkers...

I didn't mean to lecture you. Just trying to point out that we took concessions already and not going to want to take another one by getting your PBS. My beef was with ASA guys telling us to shove it if we didn't like it since ASA is buying XJT.

I'm not saying "shove it"...I want this to work....I simply don't want to be lectured about our PBS as a "concession" when you took pay concessions and PBS actually is an improvement for many of us. I would do better next month with PBS than the line bidding we did.

Come here with an open mind and a willing to work WITH us, and you will be amazed at how well we can work....Come in charging with a lecture about how we shouldn't have taken PBS and how Skywest sucks, and you will meet resistance....Your choice.....

We are not ignoring the fact we took concessions. We know about it twice a month. The fact that we took concessions is the very reason why PBS without pay and QOL neutrality wont fly with XJT guys.

Those dogs wont hunt...

Your concessions were driven by the fact that we are all competing against one another for an ever decreasing piece of pie with the "brand" carriers. Our own union, ALPA, doesn't acknowledge that we even own that flying. Until that changes, we have to be cost competitive in this world of "RFPs"....You need to take your concerns to ALPA regarding this issue.

Do you think someone should be fired for writing F_____ on company property?

You don't?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Expressjet guys and gals- I sincerely hope you can knock some sense into this pilot group at ASA. We suffer from some questionable recruitment practices also known as an IQ deficit.

 

[Nevets]

In negotiations, both sides push for things that are "industry standard" when it suits them. PBS has become industry standard. To hold out against PBS would mean some serious hits in other pay/QOL issues...sorry but that's how the game works. Giving into PBS during section 6 would probably result in a worse version of PBS for the same reason. We got a better one than anyone else who did it...because we did outside of section 6. You can play Chess or Checkers....management plays Chess while many times we try and play Checkers...

Yeah, like I said, I understand the reasoning. I just don't buy the part that a mediator would not go for the pilots holding out on it. It all depends on what the pilots are offering to keep if off property. Maybe its too much of a hit, I don't know, but that was not my point.

I'm not saying "shove it"...I want this to work....I simply don't want to be lectured about our PBS as a "concession" when you took pay concessions and PBS actually is an improvement for many of us. I would do better next month with PBS than the line bidding we did.

Come here with an open mind and a willing to work WITH us, and you will be amazed at how well we can work....Come in charging with a lecture about how we shouldn't have taken PBS and how Skywest sucks, and you will meet resistance....Your choice.....

I know it wasn't you that said that. I think that was in a discussion about SLI anyways. My point about concessions is that we've done that already and doubt we will do the same by taking PBS without it being pay and QOL neutral. That fact that you say PBS is actually an improvement for many while it would be a concession for us just shows how much of a hit we would take, again!

Your concessions were driven by the fact that we are all competing against one another for an ever decreasing piece of pie with the "brand" carriers. Our own union, ALPA, doesn't acknowledge that we even own that flying. Until that changes, we have to be cost competitive in this world of "RFPs"....You need to take your concerns to ALPA regarding this issue.

They were driven by the fact that our managment was forced to take SKW's cpa with CAL that took 16% pay cuts into consideration on top of the synergy and economies of scale savings. I'm taking this to ALPA by letting my rep and MEC chairman know that we need one list or scuttle the deal.

You don't?

No, two weeks off without pay and a warning that if it happens again, he will be fired. Isn't that fair?

 

[79%N1]

If I am the boss of a company and somebody writes F--- 79% on my company property, his behind is fired!!! End of story! 2 weeks off and don't do it again?!?! YGBFSM!

And if I did it, I expect the same.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

If I am the boss of a company and somebody writes F--- 79% on my company property, his behind is fired!!! End of story! 2 weeks off and don't do it again?!?! YGBFSM!

And if I did it, I expect the same.

Again you don't know the facts, there was tons more than the ......XXXXR, signage. The simple fact is XXXXR couldn't even fire a non union pilot legal and proper, and he was one of Brads drinking buddies, Brad had multiple opportunities to step in and do the right thing, but he chose not too and it cost the company many hundreds of thousands in back pay and legal fees. The exact amount will never be known, but it was based on DDs being off for a couple of years and spending more than 200K of his own money in legal fees. The case was heard in SLC where employeeshave fewer rights than pet rabbits.
So let's see BH oversees one of SKYWs more infamous puppet courts, and then gets handed his buttocks in a paper baggy the home court judge, and money spanked too boot! Oh yeah you aren't the boss of anything, thank god.
I am glad he is you problem now, watch out, when the mancrush ends you will feel kinda dirty and your wallet will be raped.
PBR

 

[Tarzan]

I am glad he is you problem now, watch out, when the mancrush ends you will feel kinda dirty and your wallet will be raped.
PBR

Good thing is, we at least have a grievance process that is legally binding.

BH was the DO. DO's are always hated. Our VP or Flt Ops was the DO at Delta and was reviled intensely there. Ever since the "La Liar" was sent home for more family time, he has been rather amiable. He's goofed a couple of times but that was undoubted BH saying to hold off on hiring. But he doesn't have the hate associated with a DO attached to him. Our current DO can go take a flying leap. I don't believe he is a bad guy but I think he's in over his head.

Overall, BH has come in and done a great job. We went from last to near or at the top in most categories. Plus, when he says something, it seems to happen good, bad or indifferent. Having a guy you can believe when you are told something means a lot.

 

[79%N1]

Again you don't know the facts, there was tons more than the ......XXXXR, signage. The simple fact is XXXXR couldn't even fire a non union pilot legal and proper, and he was one of Brads drinking buddies, Brad had multiple opportunities to step in and do the right thing, but he chose not too and it cost the company many hundreds of thousands in back pay and legal fees. The exact amount will never be known, but it was based on DDs being off for a couple of years and spending more than 200K of his own money in legal fees. The case was heard in SLC where employeeshave fewer rights than pet rabbits.
So let's see BH oversees one of SKYWs more infamous puppet courts, and then gets handed his buttocks in a paper baggy the home court judge, and money spanked too boot! Oh yeah you aren't the boss of anything, thank god.
I am glad he is you problem now, watch out, when the mancrush ends you will feel kinda dirty and your wallet will be raped.
PBR

I don't know about any of that, but I stick by my point to answer the question asked.....If I walk over to the GO or crewroom, and on company property I write F--- (Insert company name here) on said property, and it is proved I did it then I SHOULD EXPECT TO BE FIRED! Just as I would fire anyone that worked at my company. That is it. No defending it......

 

[Plainsman]

Funny how everyone loves Brad. No one really likes many of his subordinates. Wonder why that is? Can it be that Brad is just super nice compared to the dung spreaders? You think Tutt and Hall are behind the crap schedules and furloughs? Me thinks Prez Brad is a bit of a ventriloquist. Now back to your regularly scheduled four day.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

[snip]
We also have more ability to drop trips into open time.
[snip]

Not true. You cannot drop trips into open time under the ASA PBS. You can only post part or all of your trip on the trade board. Someone has to pick it up.

Under PBS I would get more days off with my Vacation in Sept than I will with conflicting drops.
[snip]

I think you meant that you could get more days off. The old system guaranteed pilots the option to drop conflicting drops. PBS is a roll of the dice. Maybe more days, maybe less days, but nothing guaranteed.

[snip]
No more of that 105 hr guarantee BS.
[snip]

I'm not sure I'm tracking you on this. I didn't think anyone had a 105 hour guarantee. I know the Chief Pilots and maybe some training guys have high guarantee, but I thought most line guys had the standard 75 hour guarantee.
Now, if you are commenting on guys crediting 105 hours, I am still not tracking you. Why do you care if guys plus up their lines? Are you averse to people making anything over guarantee?
An argument might be made that paying guys to fly over 75 hours is not cost effective. I'm not sure about this, as there are many costs to keeping an employee on property other than paying them for extra flying. I haven't run the numbers, but I suspect that paying three guys each an extra 25 hours of pay is cheaper than the costs of hiring another employee, particularly considering such factors as insurance, 401k matching, training, simulators, line checks, Jepps, etc. Again, I haven't run the numbers, but let me know if you have. I'm interested in the math.
If you are dead set against getting paid over 75 hours, I will fly your trips. I like extra money.