Whats up with civi pilots?

[AdlerDriver]

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Big Pictures for ALL my friends!!!!!

 

[JungleJett]

I originally posted something lenghty but thought better of getting sucked into a first grade level argument from both sides.

Cheers and Happy New Year!!

 

[Lead Sled]

Bludev well said civil and military are two different types of training and flying. At 350 hours TT I was flying a P-3 off the coast of Vietnam. I was routinely flying that 127K four engine turbo-prop at 200' off the water in IFR conditions doing radar runs in on unknown targets with an engine shut down to save fuel. It is a skill that any professional pilot could acquire. However the military wants you to do be able to do this very early in your flying career and training is focused upon being mission qualified without a broad knowledge of the flying world. At that same time I could have not have entered the VFR pattern at an uncontrolled civilian airport, I had never been trained to do that. After leaving active duty in 1977 with over 2500 hrs, I had never shot an ILS approach. Military flying is just a different sets of flying skills from the civilian world. There are very capable pilots on both sides.

Thanks Yip good post. Thats basically all I ever said.

It's all about training, acquiring skill sets, and experience. Being good in one "world" doesn't necessarily mean that you'll do well in the other - without additional training. The big kicker is "attitude". It's much easier to teach someone something if they don't already think that they know everything.

Happy New Year to all.

'Sled

 

[SIG600]

It's all about training, acquiring skill sets, and experience. Being good in one "world" doesn't necessarily mean that you'll do well in the other.

One thing that amazed me were guys with barely 200 hours (which wouldn't get you a comm. pilots licence) but yet had aquired the skill to take high performance single engine jets off shore, and land them on a carrier... But like Yip said, a lot of us wouldn't know how to enter a civilian traffic pattern and some have never even filed a flight plan with an FSS. It's all about what you're trained to do, and what you're exposed to.

Edit... and if you really wanna talk about "training to do something" look at NFO and Nav types. Those guys can be in combat within prob two years of their first flight in an airplane.

 

[Draginass]

The military is a lot more choosy and ruthless in it's selection and initial training than a civilian flight school whose criteria is "how much money ya got."

Civilian flying does not even approach 1/10th the complexity and demand of military flying. Been there, done both.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The military is a lot more choosy and ruthless in it's selection and initial training than a civilian flight school whose criteria is "how much money ya got."

Civilian flying does not even approach 1/10th the complexity and demand of military flying. Been there, done both.

I would agree with your statement generally, but that doesn't remove the fact that there are questionable folks on both sides of the fence. Either way, this thread has drifted significantly...I think we can all agree that no matter what cockpit someone is in...the operator will eventually complain...about something! And I also think we can all agree that any kind of flying will kill you fast if you don't know what you are doing.

-Neal

 

[SIG600]

Civilian flying does not even approach 1/10th the complexity and demand of military flying. Been there, done both.

What I was trying to get across to Turbine head in his effort to "retrain" all the military guys.

 

[Draginass]

My own experience, as well as other military pilots that I've observed, is that transition to part 121 flying does take a little while. I'd say about 3-6 months by the time a pilot has been around the system enough to understand the nuances. Also, new pilots in the civilian system are not closely monitored and mentored like in a mililtary flying squadron. As a civlian, you're pretty much on your own. I think this is one way that marginally competent pilots can survive so long in a part 121 company. The varying degrees of standardization among long time part 121 captains can be confusing at first. Also, learining the company's part 121 ops specs takes a while, as does learning a new airplane at the same time. Civilian type-rating training is minimal (understandable due to cost constraints). Just enough to be safe and out-on-the-line-you-go.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

My own experience, as well as other military pilots that I've observed, is that transition to part 121 flying does take a little while. I'd say about 3-6 months by the time a pilot has been around the system enough to understand the nuances. Also, new pilots in the civilian system are not closely monitored and mentored like in a mililtary flying squadron. As a civlian, you're pretty much on your own. I think this is one way that marginally competent pilots can survive so long in a part 121 company. The varying degrees of standardization among long time part 121 captains can be confusing at first. Also, learining the company's part 121 ops specs takes a while, as does learning a new airplane at the same time. Civilian type-rating training is minimal (understandable due to cost constraints). Just enough to be safe and out-on-the-line-you-go.

Yes, training is fairly minimal and could always be beefed up but most of training in the 121 world is done "on the job" both during IOE and then later through mentorship by the FO's Captains. If it were a single pilot operation then I believe more training would occur. That said, training will always be to proficiency but also watched carefully by the beancounters to prevent excess cost. The military has to be able to do everything the 121 guys do (take off, cruise, land) and then their operational mission that the MWS also requires...and that is the major difference.

-Neal

 

[AdlerDriver]

............. civil and military are two different types of training and flying. ................ Military flying is just a different sets of flying skills from the civilian world.

Yip,
Correct me if I’m wrong but, I don’t think you meant to make such a general statement.

Some aspects of military training and flying are different but it’s not totally exclusive. Same comment to your second statement. It’s not a totally different set of flying skills. The basics are just that – basic.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Thanks Yip good post. Thats basically all I ever said..............

basically all you ever said???? If you take out the BS, inaccuracies and the stereotypes, maybe. Nice try.

 

[pilotyip]

Adler is correct in his understnading of my post there are similar skills as well different skills.

 

[jetjockey1231]

hooker23 - stay where you are because you are not qualified to do anything more than you are doing now. Pilotyip, if you mil pilots are so great, why are you only flying worn out da20s in michigan? if the mil is so good why do all of you become civ pilots? it's because you are no better than us civ pilots!!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

hooker23 - stay where you are because you are not qualified to do anything more than you are doing now. Pilotyip, if you mil pilots are so great, why are you only flying worn out da20s in michigan? if the mil is so good why do all of you become civ pilots? it's because you are no better than us civ pilots!!

Step away from the bottle......

 

[jetjockey1231]

bludevav8r - what - you did not like what i said?