Whats up with civi pilots?

[Gorilla]

Good post Adler.

What makes a really good fighter pilot shine is an amount of situational awareness so great that under punishing physical stress he not only continues to fly his own jet at a peak of performance, he can also "fly" the jets belonging to his flight by proxy. The information flow is so high, and the situation in his own aircraft so brutal, the only parallel I can create is a guy in a crippled 767 filled with smoke, on fire, and with a medical emergency on board, with ATC and his own flight attendants screaming at him, not only recover his own airplane, but simultaneously guide a lost GA aircraft to a safe landing, and also do a few position report relays to oceanic pretty much at the same time.

This sounds ridiculous, but it has a foundation in fact. I've heard it and been a part of it. I'll use "Mongo" as an example. Mongo is a real guy.

Mongo is engaged in a 2V4 in a major 40+ aircraft Nellis exercise, and has averaged 6G for 2 or 3 minutes. AWACS is screaming at him, "THREAT North 10, low. Additional threat West 20, angels 10." Mongo has gunned one guy and is about to gun track another. Despite this, he has mentally tracked the larger world around him and continues to do so.

Mongo: "Two, pitch right, bandit 5 o'clock high. Four, come North, you are about to enter prohibited airspace. Three, your targets are rounding Worthington low, head 330 and push it up to intercept. Two, GD it you are about to get GUNNED, JINK NOW. Let me gun this guy, then I'll help you. 'Guns kill two MiG's in the left hand turning fight South of Worthington at 5,000 feet.' Hoser flight, the fight is East of you, come off those guys, they are friendlies."

Mongo dominates and leads the entire local war in a physical environment that would leave 99.99% of the U.S. population unconscious, puking, or both.

A fighter pilot might not be able to program a route offset in a 767 FMC on day one, but when things get really ugly, and the world is on fire, and everyone is screaming at him, that's where he shines. And that to me is more important, and what we are paid to do, than understand the standby hydraulic system, or know the correct formatting for obtaining a NAT Track clearance from Shanwick.

 

[Caveman]

I interpreted 'hundreds' as meaning more than 200. IOW at least 300. The term 'mins' usually means the bottom of a 200 and 1/2 approach. I have no doubt that in the course of 5 years you flew a bunch of actual IMC and a ton of instrument approaches but were 'hundreds' of them really all the way down to mins? If you say they were, then I guess they were. I wasn't questioning your integrity. I was raising an eyebrow at what appeared to be a little bit of literary license.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am sorry to read Gorillas #23 post. (and now #111). I do have repsect for the mil. guys and of course who doesn't want fly a tactical jet, especially off of a carrier. (this includes all the USAF types. )

I do believe that most of us, with the right training and attitude, can do either military flying or civilian flying. We really don't have anything on anyone.

We all know military flying can be demanding. One of several reasons is experience. Sure the military guys get lots of great training. A DOD budget far exceeds by millions any airline training dept. budget. Nonetheless, a 300 hour F-18 guy (25 years old) flying his first tour on the boat has got to be demanding! Certianly much more demanding than 25 year old working on his commercial.

But since I am civilian, I'll try and justify my world.

There is limited funds in airline training. No bucks means the traveling public is counting on our brains to make good decisions. Combined with the on time demands of the company..... (this isn't a comparison to tactical mil flying!)

Mission planning takes hours. We take less than 30 minutes and we do up to six or seven legs a day. In all types of weather for days in a row.

As others have said, the Mil guys are always trying to get on the flight schedule. We fly enough that we want off. 85+ hours a month. 800+ a year.

Despite the ab initio programs of todays, there were times, when pilots would take 135 jobs were ever they could, packing what they could in their economy car, living in crashpads, living paycheck to paycheck. It does add to character doing this with no script, no guidance and no cash. Just a dream and determination to fly.

Throughout history civilian pilots have proven thier worth. Over 70 years ago, after WWI, Airmail was being flown by civilian pilots. There was a dispute over PIC authority and the civ pilots stood down in unity. The gov called in the Army Air Corp pilots to fly the mail. They started crashing and dying because they didn't know the routes and how to fly in marginal weather. The entire operation was halted. Eventually the civ pilots resumed after they earned PIC total authority. The mail got thru again and the killing stopped.

In WWII civilian pilots and flight crews did amazing flying. Consider this:

American Airlines pilot Bill Evans stated;

“When we got there, the Army pilots were getting the Air Medal for fifteen trips over the Hump, and the Distinguished Flying Cross for thirty flights. They never flew at night. We were making three round trips a day, and when we started flying the Hump at night, that ended the medals.”
​

Air Line pilots have been taking hits for over 5 years now. Our industry is in ruins. Our career expectations are in the toilet. Many of us have had our pay slashed from 30 to 100%. Our retirements are vaporized. Our job security is non existant. I know, cry me a river. However, with all this personal stress and uncertainty, we have not increased the accident rate. In fact we have done quite well.

While no accident is acceptable, there is a certain level of understadning that in the high stress high, demanding flying of the mil., there will be accidents. However, in the civ world, there is no acceptable accident rate.

Fact is the flying is different but with the right training and attitude anyone of us can do what we do.

Let's find common ground instead beating our chest like gorilla's in a cage. Besides chicks don't dig it....

 

[Gorilla]

RoL, I'm sorry you don't like my postings and think I'm "Chest beating". Please look at my other posts and you'll see that I am generally pretty mild and not a pot-stirrer. My earlier postings in this beat-up thread almost all have an addition/addendum, basically saying "Sorry guys, bad mood this morning, etc".

When a guy earlier says that fighter pilot skills don't "translate" to a 737, Adler made a sound response, and I attempted to back him. I've consistently maintained that there are challenges in all types of flying.

Mongo is the fighter-world's equivalent of "The Duke". I am not Mongo, but I tried to be and honor his vast skill. All decent fighter pilots to some degree have his abilities to do the multitasking as described. Fighter pilot stuff translates better to the abnormal/emergency civilian environment rather than daily ops.

Where in my posts am I denigrating excellent pilots with civilian backgrounds? Am I saying that a great civ. pilot cannot do what Mongo does with apparent ease? No. But not all of them can. Likewise, I cannot perform certain civilian evolutions as well as some exceptional civilian guys.

There are two camps in this fight. One is those of us with the experience in both worlds. I count myself among them. The other is a more ascerbic and bitter camp without experience in both, who have posted slams that simply aren't true.

Maybe you are looking at this quote: "Mongo dominates and leads the entire local war in a physical environment that would leave 99.99% of the U.S. population unconscious, puking, or both." This is simply the truth, and is what would happen if you grabbed the average Joe off the street and stuck him in the back seat of Mongo's tub. It is my attempt at describing the physical reality of a fighter cockpit in a heavy engagement. I still have pain and health problems 15 years later from my days in a fighter.

 

[ePilot22]

Professional what?

To those civilian pilots who like ragging on military pilots who are new to the civilian side: we (military pilots) could do the same to you and more if you came over to the military side, but most of us don't when we get new pilots in. Its called being professional.

Really? I must have missed that in your first post. Could you point out YOUR professionalism for me?

Are most civilian pilots a bunch of whining pussies? Or is it just the pilots on the various forums? I expect to have to work at a job, not get paid to fly a few hours. I can't see a reason to get out when I would take a 30K pay cut and have to work more than I do now with a bunch of complainers and bitch artists.

Nope, don't see any here. Try working on it!!! :erm:

Thanks to those of you that wrote sane, intelligent answers to my first questions. I appreciate it. To those of you that took offense to my first post -- get a life and some thicker skin.

I wonder why we took offense to you first post. Was it the name calling or your lack of any professionalism. Isn't it ironic that you would tell us what professionlism is or the fact that YOU are complaining about civilian pilots being pu$$ies? Or is it your thanks to those who wrote what you could not, "sane, intelligent answers"? :nuts:

Here's a suggestion to your first post, stay where you're at. We civilian pilots don't need another thing to complain about.

On another note...Avbug, nice post. #82! :laugh:


eP.

 

[AdlerDriver]

I interpreted 'hundreds' as meaning more than 200. IOW at least 300. The term 'mins' usually means the bottom of a 200 and 1/2 approach. I have no doubt that in the course of 5 years you flew a bunch of actual IMC and a ton of instrument approaches but were 'hundreds' of them really all the way down to mins? If you say they were, then I guess they were. I wasn't questioning your integrity. I was raising an eyebrow at what appeared to be a little bit of literary license.

Okay,
Perhaps I should have said "lots". Would that be better. I have flown over 2000 sorties in the F-15. Is it that much of a stretch to say that 10% of them involved an instrument approach to my mins? Not really, considering almost half my time flying was in Europe. If you've never had the pleasure of flying there, in the winter, the weather is dogsh!t.

For whatever reason, it liked to hang at 200-300 feet and just under a mile vis. Maybe you have a different perspective than I do about mins. At 150-160 knots, single-pilot, hand flown ILS or PAR, sometimes following your wingman 2 miles in front of you with your radar, without the "christmas tree" approach light show that I find at most airports now (most NATO bases had basic approach lights/sequenced flashers, rwy edge lights and a vasi) - flying to 200-1/2 or 300-1 was flying to mins. If that's not mins to you, okay - like I said, maybe you have a different perspective.

BTW, Gorilla, I know Mongo well. There was a reason they called him "Baby Jesus". I'm not worthy. He's da MAN - he helped get me hired at Fedex .

 

[AdlerDriver]

.........Mongo is the fighter-world's equivalent of "The Duke". /quote]

Careful with this now, Gorilla. I assume you're referring to Mr. Wayne. Say "Duke" and fighter pilot in the same sentence and people used to think you were talking about a now disgraced Vietnam ace.

 

[Gorilla]

Ahh you're right, I forgot about "The Duke" Cunningham, new callsign Mr. Bribe. If you see Mongo, tell him one of his Gorilla Boys says "hi". Mongo, Kmart, JonBoy, Opie, Blade, and others, made our weapons shop a great one!

I'm off to the Caribbean today. Unfortunately, no beach, just a leg back. Guys, if I stepped on any toes, my apologies. Happy New year!

 

[AdlerDriver]

.......Mission planning takes hours. We take less than 30 minutes and we do up to six or seven legs a day. In all types of weather for days in a row.....

Good post overall, Rez. In a couple of areas you're kind of mixing apples and oranges - but I get your point.

There's not much point in pointing out a civilian jumped in a stearman and did the job better than a pilot from the Army Air Corps. There's no real equivalent to that in 2005 and it's not really germane to what this thread has degenerated to. Back then there was a great deal more commonality in equipment than there is now.

One final note on the mission planning comment. Military mission planning is a pretty broad topic to compare to civilian mission planning. Let's call a spade a spade. Whether you do it all for yourself or a dispatcher helps you, what does mission planning really involve. You check wx/notams, decide on a route, file a flight plan.... what else... weight and balance? help me out - good grief - with a dispatcher you don't even deal with the route or filing.

Military mission planning might be exactly the same (minus the dispatcher) or it could be a lot more. Depends on the aircraft, mission, location, etc. If it takes 2 hours, it's because it needs to. Some Red Flag missions or missions during Desert Storm took many more hours than that.

I have never flown anything but dispatched 121 stuff in the civilian world - so my perspective is obviously limited. If showing up and checking the fuel, route, wx/notams takes me more than 15 minutes, I probably need another cup of coffee (whether it 1 leg or 6-7 legs a day).

Again, I'm not trying to disagree with the basic gist of your post - you just kind of lost me with the mission planning thing.

 

[say again]

What it comes down to is that BOTH know how to fly!!! No one is better than the other. Different backgrounds, different ways of doing things. BOTH are correct.:beer: