Whats up with civi pilots?

[Kuma]

WillowRun is the king...

WillowRunVortex is the king of his kingdom. He flies out of the same dozen airports every day, so he knows the navaids between here and there. Break out a chart? That is absolutely amateurish. He doesn't have time for that! Brief the copilot on possible routings while they hang out in the crew lounge watching the weather channel? No way, the copilot should just know! WillowRunVortex should be single piloted, because he already knows it all.

BTW, do you want the T/O and Landing distance calculated to the foot or "instantly"? I think most people could say the landing roll out is "3.9" but if you want me to say that it is 3,921 feet give me a minute to pull out a calculator. Also, I am surprized that your ops manual allows a landing on a 5000 foot snow covered runway with no thrust reverse. You must have great anti-lock brakes. Maybe WillowRun is just a cowboy who says that if the landing roll is 4,952 feet then it is "safe" to land on a 5,000 foot runway. Sometimes the pilot is supposed to say "no".

If you want your copilot to calculate the timing for you and call out your MDAs, then it should be in your Ops manual, or you should brief him. Otherwise, he is going to expect that you know how to fly an NDB approach by looking at the diagram.

I think this is the second time I got sucked into this absolutely asinine post by WillowRunVortex. You are a shame to the piloting profession and I hope that the pilots who have to fly with you treat you with the respect you deserve...

Kuma

 

[AdlerDriver]

Big Fish, Little Pond

If I got an immediate for a hard on demand 135 trip in a Lear or a Falcon, I certainly would prefer a 1500 hr civilian who had done all his flying as a civilian, rather than a 1500 hr "TopGun" who got the job because of his military background.
Probably better – that way you’ll have the best chance that the F/O will believe (and put up with) your BS!! By the way, did you really need to start your post talking about your “hard on”?

I need someone who I can tell where we’re going and have him run to the phone file a flight plan with Flight Service without having to break out with the god da_mn charts,,,so that we are ready to start engines in about 8 minutes after he picks up the phone.
Yeah, it’s much more professional to avoid those silly charts and enroute notams – just file what you did last week – I’m sure it will all work out.

I need someone who can quickly and correctly calculate T/O and landing weights and distances by glancing at a card almost instantly. In 135 on-demand freight, T/O and landing distances are computed to the foot.
Almost INSTANTLY!!?? WOW! Most military guys I know have such a hard time with those pesky nu… nub….. numbers. AND – they’re computed to the FOOT!!! The big question is - are the takeoffs and landings FLOWN to the foot?

When was the last time the NAVY or the USAF told you to land on a snow covered un-controlled 5000ft runway in a 26,000lbs jet with no reverse,,, with your only ground resource being "Fred" the fork-lift/ truck driver giving you braking action reports from the radio in his truck?
Uhhh – Never. Not real disappointed about that – Looks good on you, though. Not to mention that with all the USAF and Navy facilities around the world, Fred and his forklift would be extremely over-worked. You keep him – it sound like you need him more. So, what’s the hard part? Deciding to believe Fred? Once you make the decision to land, what is it about flying an approach that is so unique? Fly a great approach, land on speed in the beginning of the touchdown zone and get on the brakes. Something about that is hard? Well, if you say so.

We don’t have 10,000 ft runways all the time or a tail hook to stop us. We don't have the "nylon let-down" either. If we are wrong in our decisions,,,we're fu_cked.
My God! How do you live from day to day with so much riding on you decisions? Do you say a tearful goodbye to your family each day before you go make such decisions? I’m so thankful that I never had to be concerned with the ramifications of my decisions in the military thanks to 10,000’ runways and tail hooks.

I need someone who can work antiquated radar unites. I need someone who can hand fly a jet at high altitudes (370 for the Falcon, 410 for the Lear) with-out an auto-pilot (this is where everyone fails), so we can get up to an altitude where we have a fighting chance of completing the trip without running out of gas (we can't "hook-up" with a tanker in the real world either).
Oh…. Right, I forgot. If a military guy can’t get the altitude he needs or mis-manages his fuel profile, there’s ALWAYS a tanker to pull his nuts out of the fire. They just fly around waiting for us to pork it away and then magically show up to save the day. Other guys have already talked about your amazing ability to hand fly at altitude. Again, If you say it’s hard for you, I can only believe it. Subsonic, Transonic, M1.0, M1.5, M2.0… hand flown from surface to FL500…. For some reason, that was never my biggest challenge.

And before you fighter guys chime in I guarantee you it will take plenty of time for you to hold altitude at 410 in a 20 series Learjet with-out an auto-pilot.
Ooooooooh. The last great challenge in aviation. :laugh:

I need someone who knows how to pick their way thru a thunderstorm without going 150 miles out of the way to get around it.
Who’s in charge of your aircraft, Captain?

I need someone that will keep his cool and won't say dumb sh1t on the radio when something quits working on the aircraft.
Yup. As soon as the SAMs started flying, I encountered a Mig or had an engine fire, the first thing my training taught me to do was key the mike and say something stupid. You mean that’s not right? We’re all so impulsive that way.

These are actual things I encountered while flying out of YIP with ex-military guys. Granted the FO's were new at the time, but they were not ready for the trips, in my opinion.
And everyone knows the cream of the crop is getting out of the military in search of a -135 freight job flying Lear jets out of Michigan.

When I think of flying a single seat fighter with a tail hook, an ejection seat, in-flight refueling capability, and enough power to make the wing an after-thought, I think of relief.
I guess that’s as good as anything else you might think of…. You certainly can’t think of those things with any kind of first hand knowledge that might make your opinion worth a sh!t. :laugh:

When I think of an uninformed civilian pilot with an over-inflated opinion of the demands of his job and no clue about military flying, I think of you.

 

[Fury220]

If I got an immediate for a hard on demand 135 trip in a Lear or a Falcon, I certainly would prefer a 1500 hr civilian who had done all his flying as a civilian, rather than a 1500 hr "TopGun" who got the job because of his military background.
Probably better – that way you’ll have the best chance that the F/O will believe (and put up with) your BS!! By the way, did you really need to start your post talking about your “hard on”?

I need someone who I can tell where we’re going and have him run to the phone file a flight plan with Flight Service without having to break out with the god da_mn charts,,,so that we are ready to start engines in about 8 minutes after he picks up the phone.
Yeah, it’s much more professional to avoid those silly charts and enroute notams – just file what you did last week – I’m sure it will all work out.

I need someone who can quickly and correctly calculate T/O and landing weights and distances by glancing at a card almost instantly. In 135 on-demand freight, T/O and landing distances are computed to the foot.
Almost INSTANTLY!!?? WOW! Most military guys I know have such a hard time with those pesky nu… nub….. numbers. AND – they’re computed to the FOOT!!! The big question is - are the takeoffs and landings FLOWN to the foot?

When was the last time the NAVY or the USAF told you to land on a snow covered un-controlled 5000ft runway in a 26,000lbs jet with no reverse,,, with your only ground resource being "Fred" the fork-lift/ truck driver giving you braking action reports from the radio in his truck?
Uhhh – Never. Not real disappointed about that – Looks good on you, though. Not to mention that with all the USAF and Navy facilities around the world, Fred and his forklift would be extremely over-worked. You keep him – it sound like you need him more. So, what’s the hard part? Deciding to believe Fred? Once you make the decision to land, what is it about flying an approach that is so unique? Fly a great approach, land on speed in the beginning of the touchdown zone and get on the brakes. Something about that is hard? Well, if you say so.

We don’t have 10,000 ft runways all the time or a tail hook to stop us. We don't have the "nylon let-down" either. If we are wrong in our decisions,,,we're fu_cked.
My God! How do you live from day to day with so much riding on you decisions? Do you say a tearful goodbye to your family each day before you go make such decisions? I’m so thankful that I never had to be concerned with the ramifications of my decisions in the military thanks to 10,000’ runways and tail hooks.

I need someone who can work antiquated radar unites. I need someone who can hand fly a jet at high altitudes (370 for the Falcon, 410 for the Lear) with-out an auto-pilot (this is where everyone fails), so we can get up to an altitude where we have a fighting chance of completing the trip without running out of gas (we can't "hook-up" with a tanker in the real world either).
Oh…. Right, I forgot. If a military guy can’t get the altitude he needs or mis-manages his fuel profile, there’s ALWAYS a tanker to pull his nuts out of the fire. They just fly around waiting for us to pork it away and then magically show up to save the day. Other guys have already talked about your amazing ability to hand fly at altitude. Again, If you say it’s hard for you, I can only believe it. Subsonic, Transonic, M1.0, M1.5, M2.0… hand flown from surface to FL500…. For some reason, that was never my biggest challenge.

And before you fighter guys chime in I guarantee you it will take plenty of time for you to hold altitude at 410 in a 20 series Learjet with-out an auto-pilot.
Ooooooooh. The last great challenge in aviation. :laugh:

I need someone who knows how to pick their way thru a thunderstorm without going 150 miles out of the way to get around it.
Who’s in charge of your aircraft, Captain?

I need someone that will keep his cool and won't say dumb sh1t on the radio when something quits working on the aircraft.
Yup. As soon as the SAMs started flying, I encountered a Mig or had an engine fire, the first thing my training taught me to do was key the mike and say something stupid. You mean that’s not right? We’re all so impulsive that way.

These are actual things I encountered while flying out of YIP with ex-military guys. Granted the FO's were new at the time, but they were not ready for the trips, in my opinion.
And everyone knows the cream of the crop is getting out of the military in search of a -135 freight job flying Lear jets out of Michigan.

When I think of flying a single seat fighter with a tail hook, an ejection seat, in-flight refueling capability, and enough power to make the wing an after-thought, I think of relief.
I guess that’s as good as anything else you might think of…. You certainly can’t think of those things with any kind of first hand knowledge that might make your opinion worth a sh!t. :laugh:

When I think of an uninformed civilian pilot with an over-inflated opinion of the demands of his job and no clue about military flying, I think of you.

Beer actually squirted out of my nose.



By the way, I just learned that squirting beer out of your nose will make your eyes water quite a bit. Good night.

 

[Fury220]

Personal experience, thats all. I guess I flew with the "bad apples"

I'm pretty sure you were picked from the same orchard...

 

[Jolly Roger]

Adler, that was some funny stuff. I was sure the cream of the mil crop was heading straight to Michigan to fly with this toolbag.

 

[Laxman]

You know it seems some civ pilots dont understand how much 1500 hrs in a fighter is. Lets just say most of those hours are 1.3 at a time with t/o, mission, landings. Possibly with some 6 hr mission where you t/o, fllew two hours to hit the tanker, fly a mission where you were getting shot at and dropping live bombs, then flying back to the tanker on the way home to PAR mins. Not autopilot and cruising while eating lunch or trying to impress yourself by holding FL410 freehand.

And in the great words of Jeff Foxworthy and friends....JetJock and Willow....He's your sign

 

[WillowRunVortex]

WOW,

Last night after the Fiesta Bowl had a few beers in me and re-read the original post that started this thread (ticked me off) so, I decided to break out with the flame-thrower.

It worked,,,sorry.

I am surprized that your ops manual allows a landing on a 5000 foot snow covered runway with no thrust reverse. You must have great anti-lock brakes.

Kuma

On a serious note though,

Reverse thrust is not calculated into predicated landing distance. It has to be all brakes in the calculated numbers. Reverse is a "bonus". Looks like someone needs to break open a book on the FAR's.

And on most aircraft I've flown it's called anti-skid.

My wifes car has "anti-lock brakes" though.

 

[Kuma]

Haha

That's the first thing that WillowRunVortex has said to make me laugh!



You're absolutley right, I was talking out of my ass. Thanks for the gentle push in the right direction.

Kuma

 

[SUNDOWN]

Wow

The next time we compare ourselves to Doctors, etc. Please submit a reply linking this thread. And to think we all got in this biz for roughly the same reason.

 

[pilotyip]

Illegal Flight?

I need someone who can work antiquated radar unites. I need someone who can hand fly a jet at high altitudes (370 for the Falcon, 410 for the Lear) with-out an auto-pilot (this is where everyone fails), so we can get up to an altitude where we have a fighting chance of completing the trip without running out of gas (we can't "hook-up" with a tanker in the real world either).

Vortex I think it is illegal to fly at those altitudes without an autopilot.

 

[AdlerDriver]

I need someone who can work antiquated radar unites. I need someone who can hand fly a jet at high altitudes (370 for the Falcon, 410 for the Lear) with-out an auto-pilot (this is where everyone fails), so we can get up to an altitude where we have a fighting chance of completing the trip without running out of gas (we can't "hook-up" with a tanker in the real world either).

Vortex I think it is illegal to fly at those altitudes without an autopilot.

Excellent point, Yip. I wish I'd thought of that.

He did apologize and admit to drinking and posting. I forgot about RSVM and I was sober. :erm:

 

[Draginass]

If I got an immediate for a hard on demand 135 trip in a Lear or a Falcon, I certainly would prefer a 1500 hr civilian who had done all his flying as a civilian, rather than a 1500 hr "TopGun" who got the job because of his military background.

I need someone who I can tell where we’re going and have him run to the phone file a flight plan with Flight Service without having to break out with the god da_mn charts,,,so that we are ready to start engines in about 8 minutes after he picks up the phone.

I need someone who can quickly and correctly calculate T/O and landing weights and distances by glancing at a card almost instantly. In 135 on-demand freight, T/O and landing distances are computed to the foot.

When was the last time the NAVY or the USAF told you to land on a snow covered un-controlled 5000ft runway in a 26,000lbs jet with no reverse,,, with your only ground resource being "Fred" the fork-lift/ truck driver giving you braking action reports from the radio in his truck?

We don’t have 10,000 ft runways all the time or a tail hook to stop us. We don't have the "nylon let-down" either. If we are wrong in our decisions,,,we're fu_cked.

With a freight 135 trip in a jet I need someone who can set up and brief an NDB approach in about 1 minute (and know how to time it correctly and call out MDA's).

I need someone who can work antiquated radar unites. I need someone who can hand fly a jet at high altitudes (370 for the Falcon, 410 for the Lear) with-out an auto-pilot (this is where everyone fails), so we can get up to an altitude where we have a fighting chance of completing the trip without running out of gas (we can't "hook-up" with a tanker in the real world either).

And before you fighter guys chime in I guarantee you it will take plenty of time for you to hold altitude at 410 in a 20 series Learjet with-out an auto-pilot.

I need someone who knows how to pick their way thru a thunderstorm without going 150 miles out of the way to get around it.

I need someone that will keep his cool and won't say dumb sh1t on the radio when something quits working on the aircraft.

These are actual things I encountered while flying out of YIP with ex-military guys. Granted the FO's were new at the time, but they were not ready for the trips, in my opinion.

When I think of flying a single seat fighter with a tail hook, an ejection seat, in-flight refueling capability, and enough power to make the wing an after-thought, I think of relief.

If you're trying to prove your a tool, you're doing a good job.

 

[JungleJett]

What truly is funny about this whole thread is that some of you military guys are getting suckered into responding to the senseless spewing that goes on here! Comeone guys..recall your survival training days when someone sent in a "fu(k your buddy card". It seems that all some interrogator would need to do is say "You military pilots suck ass and especially you fighter guys" and you would go down quicker than a doctor in a V-tail Bonanza!

Some here on both sides of the argument are doing a hell of a job supporting the others opinions.

Lets this die the undignified death it deserves!

Neal, I am telling everyone here at Express you think we are all just "weenie RJ Pilots".

I am heading back to the beach while pulling a rough Coronet Oak. You guys fight this out and let me know how it turns out.

 

[Bjammin]

Tool, what a great word.

"Cruises would seem alot shorter if we could just get over this 'up the pooper' thing"
unknown squid

 

[Gorilla]

Lets this die the undignified death it deserves!

Would a little thread drift be OK?

I just finished "Wings of Fury" by Robert Wilcox, as recommended by BluDevAv8r. This book, written post Desert Storm, is a must-read for F14, F15, F16, and F/A-18 guys, and anyone interested in the air to air game.

BluDevAv8r was right, the guy I described as "Mongo" (FedEx) was in the book, as was JonBoy Kelk (AA), "Cheese" Graeter, "Clouseau" Tollini, and Tony "ET" Murphy, who was a young pup and my B-flight Wingman when I was a Gorilla, and who went on to greatness.

Paco Geisler is prominently featured. I didn't realize he was not in command of the Gorillas during the fighting; no one deserved that war more than him. The best sq. commander I've ever known, FWS grad, a Nellis Tonopah veteran, and an unbelievable leader.

Anyway, there's a lot of names dropped and guys profiled, and if you were a Tomcat, Viper, Eagle, or Hornet guy in the '80's, it's a lot of fun and a great read.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Would a little thread drift be OK?

I just finished "Wings of Fury" by Robert Wilcox, as recommended by BluDevAv8r. This book, written post Desert Storm, is a must-read for F14, F15, F16, and F/A-18 guys, and anyone interested in the air to air game.

BluDevAv8r was right, the guy I described as "Mongo" (FedEx) was in the book, as was JonBoy Kelk (AA), "Cheese" Graeter, "Clouseau" Tollini, and Tony "ET" Murphy, who was a young pup and my B-flight Wingman when I was a Gorilla, and who went on to greatness.

Paco Geisler is prominently featured. I didn't realize he was not in command of the Gorillas during the fighting; no one deserved that war more than him. The best sq. commander I've ever known, FWS grad, a Nellis Tonopah veteran, and an unbelievable leader.

Anyway, there's a lot of names dropped and guys profiled, and if you were a Tomcat, Viper, Eagle, or Hornet guy in the '80's, it's a lot of fun and a great read.

Gorilla,

Glad you enjoyed it! I've passed that book around so many times to so many people and all have the same reaction you do (especially the ones who were there...in the fight at the time). Sort of a "who's who" of the fighter pilot world in the 80's and early 90's. I've probably read the book 5 times since I bought it and it only further convinced me that it is the fraternity and the culture that I wanted to be a part of even more than the flying itself. You definitely don't get that in the airlines (which is fine...because it isn't necessary or required). Having met and flown with Snort (once, in his Super Decath), I can say the chapter about him is dead on. Great guy and I loved hearing his stories. I'm sure things have gotten a lot more "PC" since Nellis in the 80's but my buddy who is flying F-15C's up in Elmendorf says they still have their share of fun.

Another good read for the wannabe fighter pilot (especially Guard Vipers) is "Unknown Rider" by Scott Anderson (rip). Scott wrote a fiction story based on his life experience as a Duluth MN native turned Stanford graduate turned Duluth F-16 pilot. The main character is a guy named Rick Wedan. Ironically enough, there really is a "Rick Wedan" who was in that unit for a while but now (or last I heard) teaches F-15's at the schoolhouse unit up at Klamath Falls, OR. Sadly, Scott was the Cirrus SR-20 test pilot who crashed on short final up in Duluth in final testing of the SR-20 single engine propeller plane. The sad irony behind that story is that the big safety feature of the Cirrus is the BRS parachute but that final test bird didn't have it installed and his aileron jammed on short final. Very sad. I talked to both Scott and Rick extensively on the phone back when I was 21 and gunning for my Viper Guard slot and they were both very helpful in giving me advice about rushing a unit as well as reviewing my UPT package, etc.

Gorilla, who do you fly for now?

-Neal

 

[LegacyDriver]

I've been on this board for a few weeks now exploring jobs on the civilian side. I still haven't made a decision on whether to get out or not. Are most civilian pilots a bunch of whining pussies? Or is it just the pilots on the various forums? I expect to have to work at a job, not get paid to fly a few hours. I can't see a reason to get out when I would take a 30K pay cut and have to work more than I do now with a bunch of complainers and bitch artists. I can do that in the military for a lot more pay. Anyone who has defected please let me know your experiences. Do forums attract all the disgruntled folks?

Stay put and get retirement *THEN* pursue civilian. At least that way you will always have an income. It certainly makes it a lot easier for you when your airline starts cutting your pay to have a dedicated revenue stream that is untouchable.

 

[Huggyu2]

Paco Geisler is prominently featured.

Holy smokes! There's a name I haven't heard of in years! I met him back in '93. I only spent a few weeks with him, but what an impact he made. A natural instructor, briefer,... you name it. Look up "charisma" in the dictionary and you'll see his face.
And talk about a lack of political correctness!! This guy has it in spades!

 

[Gorilla]

Gorilla, who do you fly for now?

-Neal

Neal, I'm with AA and have been since 1991. I left Egin in 1989. I desperately wanted a follow-up Eagle assignment, but my choices were Air Training Command, an exchange tour in Tunisia with an F-5 (!!), or Holloman in the now-defunct AT-38B fighter lead-in program. I chose HMN, and it was a good tour, but talk about a sad and disappointed bunch of HMN IP's when Desert Storm kicked off... I still get a hollow feeling in my gut over not being with my unit in the thick of the fight. I can only imagine how much worse Paco felt, having run the 58th for a few years, only to PCS to Keflavik before the air war started.

What made Paco a great CO (and Cowboy, the previous 58th CO was also outstanding), was the fact that his total emphasis was on getting the squadron honed like a razor. His extensive AF buddy list and tireless effort allowed us to participate in more than our fair share of major training events; he also let his weapons boys run the show, and they were hugely talented. Most of all, he was a superior fighter pilot to begin with, and our respect knew no bounds. I wonder what he's up to these days. I hope he's found something worthwhile.

 

[JungleJett]

If you guys want to relive in the glory days of pulling G's and "gunning" your buddy, you need a Yak-50 (the airplane in my avatar). You need not settle into tooling along at FL370 shooting down your watch while telling a glorious tale to the civilian pilot sitting next to you.

A lot of guys that own these airplanes are former pointy nose drivers and have nothing but great things to say about the Yak. It is more like the days of piston fighters! Nothing but good natured knife fights in a phone booth. We are always looking for more players (and instructors) to join our VERY SMALL group of owner/operators. There is a roughly 70 of these airplanes worldwide with about half here in the US. There are a handful of these airplanes for sale and there value has NEVER decreased.

The airplane is very capable as it was built for (and was once world champion) aerobatic competition. Stressed to +9/-6 and can do all unlimited manuevers. 360 horses pulling a 1900lb airplane! it takes off in as little as 300 feet and can land in 450 feet! It will also climb at 3000 FPM. A roll rate of about 280 degrees per second is nice too.

Just get one and you will not be disappointed. If you want to see some of these in action, come out to Phoenix next month! We will be gathering for a ton of flying, some fun, and some (well...lots of) beer...in that order!

Need reminded why you got into flying in the first place..get a Yak-50!