Whats up with civi pilots?

[ePilot22]

Are we reading the same thing?

...it's not really germane to what this thread has degenerated to.

Yeah, this thread really started out well! If hooker23 had approached his issue with respect instead of acting like a child and insulting people, maybe this thread would be much better?!

Talk about "painting with broad strokes", isn't that exaclty what HE did with his first post? The rest of the thread just followed his lead.

Maybe when he shows some RESPECT, he and his thread will get some in return.

Any points after his post that try and support him are invalid because first you must assume that all civilian pilots are "pu$$ies" that don't want to work and complain all the time. Since that was the original point here all it takes is ONE civilian pilot to prove him wrong and I'm willing to bet there's at least one!

There is no issue here about MIL vs. CIL. Just hooker23's disrespect and unprofessionalism towards fellow pilots.

Hooker23, why don't you address your ATTITUDE first and not worry about what other pilots say, do and feel? Try growing up and ACTING LIKE THE PROFESSIONAL YOU CLAIM TO BE! I'm sure a REAL professional would have found a better way to express their thoughts and opinions.


eP.

 

[ePilot22]

Sense or cents?

I expect to have to work at a job, not get paid to fly a few hours.

Really? And your next thought right after that was...

I can't see a reason to get out when I would take a 30K pay cut and have to work more than I do now with a bunch of complainers and bitch artists. I can do that in the military for a lot more pay.

Hmmm...? Funny too. Your last sentence seems to imply that you get paid to work with a "bunch of complainers and biatch artists" in the military as well.

Can you explain this to me?


eP.

 

[Turbinehead]

Silly

. Are most civilian pilots a bunch of whining pussies? Or is it just the pilots on the various forums?

Make up your mind how you want to ask the question, you thilly thavage.

Eww you are gross.

We might be a bunch of whining pussies, but at least we know how to fly with living creatures on board. No, we dont blow sh!t up for a living, but we do make people smile. Do you know how to do that you beatht?

Muhahahahahaaa

Naw, stay in pardner. Do yourself and us lowly civy whiny poozzie pilots a favor. Dont make us have to teach another military jock how to fly in the real world. Itsa lotta work and we dont get paid enough to risk our carcasses while you learn to ....lets see....takeoff nicely, fly smoothly and flare below 100 feet. Stay. Sit Beg.

Where did that smoke go?

 

[AdlerDriver]

Yeah, this thread really started out well! If hooker23 had approached his issue with respect instead of acting like a child and insulting people, maybe this thread would be much better?! eP.

You are exactly right. This has gone on so long I forgot what started it. Usually these threads at least start with something valid and degenerate from there..... hence my comment. This time it was BS to start with and I forgot that. Sorry.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

RoL, I'm sorry you don't like my postings and think I'm "Chest beating". Please look at my other posts and you'll see that I am generally pretty mild and not a pot-stirrer. My earlier postings in this beat-up thread almost all have an addition/addendum, basically saying "Sorry guys, bad mood this morning, etc".

When a guy earlier says that fighter pilot skills don't "translate" to a 737, Adler made a sound response, and I attempted to back him. I've consistently maintained that there are challenges in all types of flying.

Mongo is the fighter-world's equivalent of "The Duke". I am not Mongo, but I tried to be and honor his vast skill. All decent fighter pilots to some degree have his abilities to do the multitasking as described. Fighter pilot stuff translates better to the abnormal/emergency civilian environment rather than daily ops.

Where in my posts am I denigrating excellent pilots with civilian backgrounds? Am I saying that a great civ. pilot cannot do what Mongo does with apparent ease? No. But not all of them can. Likewise, I cannot perform certain civilian evolutions as well as some exceptional civilian guys.

There are two camps in this fight. One is those of us with the experience in both worlds. I count myself among them. The other is a more ascerbic and bitter camp without experience in both, who have posted slams that simply aren't true.

Maybe you are looking at this quote: "Mongo dominates and leads the entire local war in a physical environment that would leave 99.99% of the U.S. population unconscious, puking, or both." This is simply the truth, and is what would happen if you grabbed the average Joe off the street and stuck him in the back seat of Mongo's tub. It is my attempt at describing the physical reality of a fighter cockpit in a heavy engagement. I still have pain and health problems 15 years later from my days in a fighter.

Gorilla,

Is this the same Mongo that is bio'd in Wings of Fury by Robert Wilcox? If so, quite an impressive write-up on him. Also had a chapter on Dale "Snort" Snodgrass. I had the pleasure of meeting and flying with him (in his Super Decathalon) and the chapter was spot on about him and his personality.

-Neal

 

[Gorilla]

Hi Neal, I've not read Wings of Fury, but I will soon... Amazon has a number of them, used, from $1.00 each!

I'd bet it is the same guy. At the time I entered the 58th as a noob, Mongo was a young and pretty new Target Arm with a well-deserved reputation. He was one of the rarer individuals with not only vast skills in the air, but an ability to teach as well, and that was the job of Fighter Weapons School graduates, to return from Nellis and pass on the knowledge they gained.

Mongo was a G-monster. He could key the mike at ~9G and sound like a laid-back dude from Cleveland Center as he directed flights of aircraft in the immediate vicinity towards or away from nearby airborne threats, while simultaneously dispatching his opponents one by one.

Back on topic... I have to agree with ePilot22. The original post was just wrong. Here's some stuff I've learned over the years from talented, civilian-only pilots, in my world of pax aircraft:

1) There is NO MISSION beyond the safety of this aircraft and the people on it. Lose the "Must accomplish the mission at all costs" mentality from the AF... it's dangerous.

2) The crew and by extension, the passengers, must be treated with dignity and respect, and cannot be B-slapped into submission when they do something you don't like.

3) Management is not the U.S. Govt, and occasionally "orders" from above MUST be disobeyed for the safety and well being of the crew.

I'm sure there are many others, but there is a definite mental shift and certain CRM aspects that must be completely re-learned.

 

[Laxman]

"Naw, stay in pardner. Do yourself and us lowly civy whiny poozzie pilots a favor. Dont make us have to teach another military jock how to fly in the real world. Itsa lotta work and we dont get paid enough to risk our carcasses while you learn to ....lets see....takeoff nicely, fly smoothly and flare below 100 feet. Stay. Sit Beg."

LOL, now THAT is funny

 

[SIG600]

We might be a bunch of whining pussies, but at least we know how to fly with living creatures on board. No, we dont blow sh!t up for a living, but we do make people smile. Do you know how to do that you beatht?

HA! Whens the last time you saw an airport of smiling happy people standing around going "Man that was a great flight!" Get real... it's mass transit. Why don't you tell a C-17 pilot dropping food over Afghanistan, or a C-5 bringing troops home that you're the only one that can make people smile. The idea of people being happy to take a commercial flight is just funny.

Naw, stay in pardner. Do yourself and us lowly civy whiny poozzie pilots a favor. Dont make us have to teach another military jock how to fly in the real world. Itsa lotta work and we dont get paid enough to risk our carcasses while you learn to ....lets see....takeoff nicely, fly smoothly and flare below 100 feet. Stay. Sit Beg.

Ya dude... try being single seat and managing radar, weapons, keeping sa, talking to 30 other people, running your pod, etc etc etc... I was a commercial pilot prior to joining the Navy, you're not fooling anyone here. Takeoff nicely? WTF is that? Push the power up and rotate. Fly smoothly? Whens the last time you hand flew an entire flight? Flare? Oh my god we're getting technical! Why don't you try finding the boat on a dark night, then getting aboard. Any monkey can run an autopilot and FMS, and take vectors to final. Flying in the real world? We fly in the same airspace you do, more that you can't, and airspace you'll never see.


I think what this thread proves is no matter who signs your paycheck, the gov't or an airline, it's in a pilots nature to bitch. If we're not complaining about something, we're not happy.

 

[Snoop]

Well, hooker

I have the solution...Get a single pilot job, let your employer know you are more than willing to take a pissant salary of nothing, and smile as you tuck in your white silk scarf, tighten down your faded leather flying cap and fly in dilapidated junkers....And don't forget to wave to those who are flying our asses off and not whining, just fighting to get better wages, better treatment, better quality of living and finally, better attitudes for assholes like you who willingly take those crap wages and work conditions, giving employers the impetus to drive wages even lower.... So that in the near future, my neighbor, who manages a Burger King, can spot me a few bucks while I float bad checks and warm up a tin of cat food for dinner, telling my daughter that the guy flying those nice, shiny jets was the one who did take $14.95 an hour to fly a jet, and Daddy wouldn't stoop that low.....I guess it is better to sell out now...Lest you look bad in the eyes of those who won't when you get hired.

 

[guppygoshawk]

Ya dude... try being single seat and managing radar, weapons, keeping sa, talking to 30 other people, running your pod, etc etc etc... I was a commercial pilot prior to joining the Navy, you're not fooling anyone here. Takeoff nicely? WTF is that? Push the power up and rotate. Fly smoothly? Whens the last time you hand flew an entire flight? Flare? Oh my god we're getting technical! Why don't you try finding the boat on a dark night, then getting aboard. Any monkey can run an autopilot and FMS, and take vectors to final. Flying in the real world? We fly in the same airspace you do, more that you can't, and airspace you'll never see.

.

Why don't you keep you trap shut until you've actually done any of those things. You have ZERO exrpeience doing any of those things. Quit trying to sound like a badass. By the way, I think they're waiting for you to show up at the RAG. Have fun on your first flight in a grey jet.

 

[SIG600]

Never claimed to be an expert on any of it, but I'll zip up the flame suit... I did (still do) know a lot of civi guys that always thought military guys were uncouth hacks with no clue about "real world" flying and that single seat guys had no place in a multi crew cockpit. Comments like "single seat fighter pilots know nothing about CRM and shouldn't be eligible to fly for the airlines" never understanding just how freakin hard it can be. Backing up a wingman on the PCL is a PERFECT example of CRM but they'll never understand that. His post up there is an example of that. Every cockpit has it's challenges... Hell flying good tac form can be enough to frustrate you into submission (or at least me).

 

[NoKoolAid]

Big Picture

Let me break it down for you. I left the military for my wife and kids, and our financial future back in 1999. I miss the military big time -- friends, mission, making a difference, service to country, all that and more.

Flying for FredEx, I'm flat out lucky based on the industry situation. But, you're dang right I'm bitching for a slice of the proverbial pie. I guarantee you would take an ass-whoopin' after a week of night hub turns, no sleep, crappy food, etc. (month after month) You'd be bitchin' too bother. When you are breakin' your balls for the man and he doesn't throw you a bone, then we have a problem. See the point? If not, don't read anymore. Basic economics and common sense required to move forward.

In the past, you went civilian for the money, retirement, and benefits. Obviously that has taken a hit in recent years. UPS, FedEx, SWA are doing well but the rest of the industry is hurtin'. Jet Blue and Airtran are up and coming, but I wouldn't leave for a career with them -- do what my buddy did, go to Airtran for a year and bail out for FedEx. SWEEEET. FedEx, 2nd year widebody FO -- a cool $120K. Hell, not even the CHMN of the JCS pulls down that kind of JACK!

The scheduled flying is pretty lame for the most part. But that's not why I left. Just my piece of advice -- since you dig the military flying, do that either full-time or part-time in the guard or Reserves. You're in an uphill battle with a helo background for getting on with a major airline. Build civilian time for a few years. Work your arse off in the guard/reserves to keep the paychecks looking good.

If I was faced with the same transition today, I would stay in the military until 20 years and then test the airline waters. If you are able to get commuter or regional time under your belt + guard or reserve, then you are on your way.

General civilian airline flying can be challenging depending on the situation, but overall it pales in comparison to the responsibilities and challenges facing ANY military pilot on a day-to-day basis. I respect the sacrifices civilian-only pilots endure on their way to the majors. BUT, don't ever let a civilian-only guy crack on you for what you do. Quite a few of them know deep down inside they couldn't hack it under fire. 'Nuff said. Capeche?

Peace.
Happy New Year!

NKA

 

[NoKoolAid]

Big Picture

Let me break it down for you. I left the military for my wife and kids, and our financial future back in 1999. I miss the military big time -- friends, mission, making a difference, service to country, all that and more.

Flying for FredEx, I'm flat out lucky based on the industry situation. But, you're dang right I'm bitching for a slice of the proverbial pie. I guarantee you would take an ass-whoopin' after a week of night hub turns, no sleep, crappy food, etc. (month after month) You'd be bitchin' too bother. When you are breakin' your balls for the man and he doesn't throw you a bone, then we have a problem. See the point? If not, don't read anymore. Basic economics and common sense required to move forward.

In the past, you went civilian for the money, retirement, and benefits. Obviously that has taken a hit in recent years. UPS, FedEx, SWA are doing well but the rest of the industry is hurtin'. Jet Blue and Airtran are up and coming, but I wouldn't leave for a career with them -- do what my buddy did, go to Airtran for a year and bail out for FedEx. SWEEEET. FedEx, 2nd year widebody FO -- a cool $120K. Hell, not even the CHMN of the JCS pulls down that kind of JACK!

The scheduled flying is pretty lame for the most part. But that's not why I left. Just my piece of advice -- since you dig the military flying, do that either full-time or part-time in the guard or Reserves. You're in an uphill battle with a helo background for getting on with a major airline. Build civilian time for a few years. Work your arse off in the guard/reserves to keep the paychecks looking good.

If I was faced with the same transition today, I would stay in the military until 20 years and then test the airline waters. If you are able to get commuter or regional time under your belt + guard or reserve, then you are on your way.

General civilian airline flying can be challenging depending on the situation, but overall it pales in comparison to the responsibilities and challenges facing ANY military pilot on a day-to-day basis. I respect the sacrifices civilian-only pilots endure on their way to the majors. BUT, don't ever let a civilian-only guy crack on you for what you do. Quite a few of them know deep down inside they couldn't hack it under fire. 'Nuff said. Capeche?

Peace.
Happy New Year!

NKA

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Hi Neal, I've not read Wings of Fury, but I will soon... Amazon has a number of them, used, from $1.00 each!

I'd bet it is the same guy. At the time I entered the 58th as a noob, Mongo was a young and pretty new Target Arm with a well-deserved reputation. He was one of the rarer individuals with not only vast skills in the air, but an ability to teach as well, and that was the job of Fighter Weapons School graduates, to return from Nellis and pass on the knowledge they gained.

Mongo was a G-monster. He could key the mike at ~9G and sound like a laid-back dude from Cleveland Center as he directed flights of aircraft in the immediate vicinity towards or away from nearby airborne threats, while simultaneously dispatching his opponents one by one.

Great book...I think you will enjoy it and obviously will relate to a lot of it and know many of the people described throughout the book. When I read it, it only further increased my desire to become a part of your "fraternity." Sadly (for me), I lost my UPT slot to the DC ANG F-16 unit due to a red/green color deficiency. I still like to read up on that world and get to live vicariously through a college buddy who is flying F-15C's up at Elmendorf. Sounds like Mongo's SA was second to none.

As to the military/civilian debate, this will sadly go on for many years to come. It is 2 completely different types of flying...just like corporate is different from 121 and EMS helo flying is different from ag flying. Like anything, there are going to be bad pilots in all arenas and good pilots in all arenas. Just because someone wasn't a military pilot doesn't mean he a) didn't want to go that route or b) couldn't hack it in that part of aviation. It also doesn't mean that he did want to go that route...there are plenty of very capable civilian-only aviators who were qualified to wear the nomex flight suit but chose not to for whatever reason. Each area of aviation is different with its different positive and negative aspects. That said, if I had my choice, I would say yes, flying single seat pointy nosed fighters would be my dream aviation job...but hey, that's just me.

-Neal

 

[pilotyip]

Bludev well said civil and military are two different types of training and flying. At 350 hours TT I was flying a P-3 off the coast of Vietnam. I was routinely flying that 127K four engine turbo-prop at 200' off the water in IFR conditions doing radar runs in on unknown targets with an engine shut down to save fuel. It is a skill that any professional pilot could acquire. However the military wants you to do be able to do this very early in your flying career and training is focused upon being mission qualified without a broad knowledge of the flying world. At that same time I could have not have entered the VFR pattern at an uncontrolled civilian airport, I had never been trained to do that. After leaving active duty in 1977 with over 2500 hrs, I had never shot an ILS approach. Military flying is just a different sets of flying skills from the civilian world. There are very capable pilots on both sides.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Hit "Enter" Twice???

Big Pictures for ALL my friends!!!!!

 

[JungleJett]

I originally posted something lenghty but thought better of getting sucked into a first grade level argument from both sides.

Cheers and Happy New Year!!

 

[Lead Sled]

Bludev well said civil and military are two different types of training and flying. At 350 hours TT I was flying a P-3 off the coast of Vietnam. I was routinely flying that 127K four engine turbo-prop at 200' off the water in IFR conditions doing radar runs in on unknown targets with an engine shut down to save fuel. It is a skill that any professional pilot could acquire. However the military wants you to do be able to do this very early in your flying career and training is focused upon being mission qualified without a broad knowledge of the flying world. At that same time I could have not have entered the VFR pattern at an uncontrolled civilian airport, I had never been trained to do that. After leaving active duty in 1977 with over 2500 hrs, I had never shot an ILS approach. Military flying is just a different sets of flying skills from the civilian world. There are very capable pilots on both sides.

Thanks Yip good post. Thats basically all I ever said.

It's all about training, acquiring skill sets, and experience. Being good in one "world" doesn't necessarily mean that you'll do well in the other - without additional training. The big kicker is "attitude". It's much easier to teach someone something if they don't already think that they know everything.

Happy New Year to all.

'Sled

 

[SIG600]

It's all about training, acquiring skill sets, and experience. Being good in one "world" doesn't necessarily mean that you'll do well in the other.

One thing that amazed me were guys with barely 200 hours (which wouldn't get you a comm. pilots licence) but yet had aquired the skill to take high performance single engine jets off shore, and land them on a carrier... But like Yip said, a lot of us wouldn't know how to enter a civilian traffic pattern and some have never even filed a flight plan with an FSS. It's all about what you're trained to do, and what you're exposed to.

Edit... and if you really wanna talk about "training to do something" look at NFO and Nav types. Those guys can be in combat within prob two years of their first flight in an airplane.

 

[Draginass]

The military is a lot more choosy and ruthless in it's selection and initial training than a civilian flight school whose criteria is "how much money ya got."

Civilian flying does not even approach 1/10th the complexity and demand of military flying. Been there, done both.