Whats up with civi pilots?

[pilot141]

Everyone should be giving mad props to Hooker for actually stepping back into this firestorm that he unintentionally created.

For everyone: Gee, you think the Mil vs civ thing has been debated before? Of course it has.

Nothing changes, other than those arguing. And that is the point.

Notice how the guys arguing most loudly in the mil/civ debate are at the front end of their careers.

In the mil guy's case, he's wide-eyed, energized and has his hair on fire to fly the next mission (in fact he cant' even wait to come off leave - he's got to be in a jet NOW!)

In the civ guy's case, he's bleary-eyed and dragging ass but has his logbook on fire because he's logging a shiatload of jet PIC in actual IMC and can't wait until he gets to the hotel.

In both cases the guy is busting his ass doing something that takes a ton of training to do. In both cases the guy actually LOVES what he does. In both cases the guy is a better pilot when he wakes up in the morning with more experience in his logbook.

But both have a lot to learn about aviation - and that learning is called experience.

It can't be taught in a two-week course at Nellis or in a seminar in Denver. It takes TIME.......time flying for any air carrier, or time flying in the military past the initial commitment.

Time to recognize that aviation is an almost incomprehensibly broad field with an amazing amount of specialties. Time to realize that taking a checkride as a 727 Flight Engineer is probably one of the most narrowly focused aviation events on Earth. Time to realize that a lot of people know a LOT of stuff that you don't know about flying airplanes. Time to realize that you are never too old, tired, experienced, new, young or inexperienced to learn something about an airplane.

Time to appreciate that mastery of our profession is a constantly shifting goal and that there is always something new to learn, or some lesson to learn from someone else. Time to realize that retiring and getting on that lake/beach/ski slope is not easily met.

Time is your friend.....the more you have, the smarter you get. It works for all aspects of aviation!

 

[avbug]

Mad props?

One of the checklist items in the X has you not crossover electrical power from one engine to the other for a while down the checklist. Well if you do the checklist exactly right down the line you don't cross over power until like step 15 or so. By that time when you do crossover power and you still have any juice left in the battery and bus the tubes are either blank or when you crossover the spike actually melts the battery because of the overcharge.

So to stop that you do a memory non memory item. As soon as you lose the left engine you imediatly hit the crossover switch to parallel the power. During one sim i decided to do it just by the numbers because it's a sim and that's how we're supposed to do it in real life.

A checklist isn't necessarily a do-list, as you've probably heard many, many, many times before.

Flow checks are appropriately backed up by checklists...where appropriate.

Just how long does it take you to execute those fifteen items that your bats are going dead that fast?

"Gee, there's that pesky pressure bump again."

"Yeah, and everything is frosted over. Look! I can see my breath!"

"Hey, you're turning blue!"

"So are you! You look like Violet Bouregard in Charlie and the Chocolate factory."

"Yeah, that was so bogus. I liked the Gene Wilder version better."

"Too right. Hey, we oughta, ah, do, something...checklist, can't think, uh, what does it say?"

"Ah, right, right, right, right, right you are. Which one would you like?"

"Ah, lets do that first one, what was it? Ah, pressure something. Descent, something like that. I know it was pretty important."

"Hey, I'm blind! This is so cool!"

"Me too, and my lips are numb. I feel just like when I'm drunk!"

"Me too. Too bad the checklist isn't in brail. Put on your mask."

"There, that's better. I can see the checklist now. That's it. Put on mask. Don mask. Why would anybody name their mask 'Don'?"

"I think that's just a fancy way of saying put it on. Okay, we did that part. What's next?"

"Oh, yeah. Don mask. Don. That's funny. Don't they know it's the modern age?"

"Totally."

"Don the mask, select one hundred percent. One hundred percent what?"

"I think they mean push this button here."

"Oh. Hey, it makes more noise? I can't understand what you're saying. Hey, watch this! Luke! I am your father, Luke!"

"Cool."

"Select one hudred percent. We got that. Thrust levers to idle."

"How come they're not called 'throttles,' any more?"

"Cause we're not using carburetors."

"Really?"

"Really. Dude, I can't understand anything you're saying with that mask on. You gotta take it off."

"Roger."

"Dude, open your eyes and finish the checklist. I gotta know what comes next? Wake up, okay. This isn't any time to take a break. Aw, nuts. Okay, thrust levers to idle. Oxygen mask microphone, mask. Now there's one I've always disagreed with. They have this checklist all backward. Chestlick. Checklist. Now that's funny. Backward. I'll start it from the end, like doing a maze backward. Autopilot disengage, spoilers extend. Well, now, that could have been done, differently. I mean, I think I should be setting the altitude alerter and putting engaging autoflight on airspeed, but that's not in the checklist. Gotta follow the checklist. Must follow the checklist. Cannot act or breathe before refering to the checklist. This mask is really tight. I'm just going to take it off so I can breathe..."

 

[pilot141]

And after another conciliatory attempt Avbug dumps all over the thead.

Give it a rest.

Besides, Avbug, if you want to go for anal checklists look no further than FedEx....a civilian, Part 121 Supp carrier. Look at the panic on a Captain's face when he recovers from a GPWS warning and tries to remember the name of the checklist to run......

 

[Huggyu2]

Pilot141,
I, for one, thought that was one of the best posts I've read in quite a while. In fact, being a not-so-eloquent-fella, I'm going to steal some of your phrases, if you don't mind. Good words.

 

[avbug]

Conciliatory? I thought Diesel's comments were asinine and foolish,and said as much in not so many words. I thought the poster who started this thread was a bloody idiot, another whiner that can't or won't pull his weight, and certainly isn't needed in the work force where he can add to the problems instead of being part of a soloution. I thought most of the respondants here were certainly a lot more professional, and clearly most if not all of them are, or were, officers.

Don't like it, don't read it, mate.

I've never had a need or desire in my life to be conciliatory to you, or anybody else, and I won't start now. Thanks for playing.

 

[Lead Sled]

Here we go again...

Over my career I've had the opportunity to fly with dozens of current and ex-military pilots from all branches of the service. I've seen some very sharp ex-military pilots and I've seen ones that didn't quite measure up - and in about the same proportion as the civilian pilots I've flown with. From what I have seen, it all boils down to this: There is generally no substitute for flight time and experience. I'll be the first to admit that flight time isn't everything (I've flown with some high-time bozos. and some low-time guys that flew a good airplane), but you guys know what I'm saying.

Several years ago, I was an instructor at a 141 flight school that did a lot of "GI Bill" training for military and ex-military pilots. I worked with many individuals whose military experience that ran the whole gamut - fighter, bomber, and transport. The transport guys did the best. They were the ones whose experience most closely paralleled what one would encounter in the "real world" of civilian flying. In most cases, it was very easy to transition these people in the allotted time and they, as a group, did very well on the check rides that followed.

The fighter pilots were an entirely different story. The attributes that make a good fighter pilot do not necessarily make the transition into the civilian world. While most of the transport guys were ready well within the allotted time, almost all of the fighter types required the entire program time allotment and even then, there were a few who were pretty "rough". They were good fighter pilots – they could "mix it up" with the best of them. Unfortunately, these are skills rarely required in today's world of airline and corporate flying. The problem was they were good and they knew it and it was hard to tell them anything - they already knew it all.

Three or four years ago I had the opportunity to fly with a recently retired F-15 fighter pilot. The colonel and I flew an Astra SPX all over the country - a couple of hundred hours worth. On paper, his credentials were impressive - nearly 6,000 hours of jet fighter time and all that goes with it. In reality, his 6,000 hours of military time provided him with an equivalent of perhaps 2,000 hours of civilian experience. Basic things that we would take for granted with a civilian pilot with 6,000 hours were just not there. Skills like the use of weather radar, FMS operation, etc. and even basic instrument approaches had not been honed because they were of little practical use in the military environment. In this particular pilot's case, by his own admission, he had flown less than 5 actual ILS approaches to minimums during his entire career. (We did more that that the first month we flew together.) He was also not comfortable in serious IFR weather or operating at the various high density airports that we frequented. He felt as out of place in "our" element as I would have felt in his. He was forced to play some serious "catch up ball" but he eventually caught on; just as many of us would also be able to catch on if given the opportunity to fly in the military.

You military guys definitely have a leg up when your service flying is over, but don’t for a minute think that you’re going to be able to step right out of your military jet into the left seat of a civilian bizjet. It most likely ain't going to happen. The big issue I've found when it come to military guys is attitude - it will make or break you in the civilian world.

Merry Christmas

'Sled

 

[Purpledog]

You military guys definitely have a leg up when your service flying is over, but don’t for a minute think that you’re going to be able to step right out of your military jet into the left seat of a civilian bizjet. It most likely ain't going to happen. The big issue I've found when it come to military guys is attitude - it will make or break you in the civilian world.

I have refrained from this idiotic thread, until now. I went to the 'esteemed' flight safety. I have a fighter background and my sim partner had a mil helo background (with less than 500 fixed wing hours). By the third sim our instructor was twiddling his thumbs wondering what he could do to us for the rest of the course. Neither of us are God's gift to avaition either. His exact quote was, "I love teaching you mil guys because you come prepared". Your colonel could have had the "Old dog, new trick syndrome". FMS/EFIS ins't hard to learn to use for someone who grew up in the computer age, but it just might be for someone who can't check email. Is that a good setup to lead this in the direction of why they shouldn't change the retirement age? Here we go................

 

[Lead Sled]

By the third sim our instructor was twiddling his thumbs wondering what he could do to us for the rest of the course. Neither of us are God's gift to avaition either. His exact quote was, "I love teaching you mil guys because you come prepared".

And I suppose that you think that only ex-military pilots are capable of that level of performance in the sim?

 

[semperfido]

c'mon guys--give it a rest.

 

[taloft]

A corporate chief pilot once remarked, "When you guys stop bitching, then I'll know it's time to start worrying."

I guess to a certain extent, it's part of the culture. Though I know military pilots who've told me the same thing can happen there. Shrug.

I wouldn't form my view of all civillian pilots from posts on an internet forum. Nor would it be wise to stereotype military pilots or pretty much members of any group based on the vocal anonymity of teh interweb.

 

[Purpledog]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpledog
By the third sim our instructor was twiddling his thumbs wondering what he could do to us for the rest of the course. Neither of us are God's gift to avaition either. His exact quote was, "I love teaching you mil guys because you come prepared".

And I suppose that you think that only ex-military pilots are capable of that level of performance in the sim?__________________
He said it, I didn't, Skippy. Quit trying to flame. Oh wait this is FI, nevermind. "That level of performance", ba ha ha. Like I said before, I'm no Yeager. All I did was get into the sim and take care of biz.

 

[floater_b2]

There are great pilots that came from the military side and great pilots that came from the civilian side. Just like there are not so stellar pilots that came from the military and there are not so stellar pilots that came from the civilian side. Can we lay off the whole us vs. them mentality? Having come from the military and now doing the civilian thing, the flying in the military is definitely different than that done in the civilian side. I don't think many would argue that. But that doesn't mean it is any better. It is just different. Some guys prefer doing one thing over another. Good for them. That's the great thing about aviation. There are so many different types of flying out there. Something for everyone...This industry is taking enough of a beating from non-pilots. Let's stop beating each other up as well!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Had a new FO (former F16) in a Lear 23 coming out of maintainace out of KISM, I called for flaps up and they retracted but the gauge still read flaps 8. I told the FO to tell ATC we needed to return to Kissimmee. He got on the mic with "emergency, emergency, emergency,,,I yanked his mic's RCA jack out of the COM panel,,,end of microphone privileges.

Had a new FO in a Falcon 20 (former A10), in a descent into KDRT, an engine flames out (not a rare occurrence). As I am reaching up to flip the ignitor switches to get the ol CF700 burnin again, the FO is telling ATC we have an emergency, again I yank his mics' RCA jack from the COM panel.

Military guys are good at what they are trained to do, but they don't realize that civilian flying is a business and that you have to choose your emergencies wisely. Just because there is a failure within the aircraft it does not necessarily constitute an emergency in the civilian world.

Plus, I would have rather not dealt with the BS paperwork for these NORMAL events.

 

[Lead Sled]

Had a new FO (former F16) in a Lear 23 coming out of maintainace out of KISM, I called for flaps up and they retracted but the gauge still read flaps 8. I told the FO to tell ATC we needed to return to Kissimmee. He got on the mic with "emergency, emergency, emergency,,,I yanked his mic's RCA jack out of the COM panel,,,end of microphone privileges.

Had a new FO in a Falcon 20 (former A10), in a descent into KDRT, an engine flames out (not a rare occurrence). As I am reaching up to flip the ignitor switches to get the ol CF700 burnin again, the FO is telling ATC we have an emergency, again I yank his mics' RCA jack from the COM panel.

Military guys are good at what they are trained to do, but they don't realize that civilian flying is a business and that you have to choose your emergencies wisely. Just because there is a failure within the aircraft it does not necessarily constitute an emergency in the civilian world.

Plus, I would have rather not dealt with the BS paperwork for these NORMAL events.

There are great pilots that came from the military side and great pilots that came from the civilian side. Just like there are not so stellar pilots that came from the military and there are not so stellar pilots that came from the civilian side. Can we lay off the whole us vs. them mentality? Having come from the military and now doing the civilian thing, the flying in the military is definitely different than that done in the civilian side. I don't think many would argue that. But that doesn't mean it is any better. It is just different. Some guys prefer doing one thing over another. Good for them. That's the great thing about aviation. There are so many different types of flying out there. Something for everyone...

Isn't this what I said?...

Over my career I've had the opportunity to fly with dozens of current and ex-military pilots from all branches of the service. I've seen some very sharp ex-military pilots and I've seen ones that didn't quite measure up - and in about the same proportion as the civilian pilots I've flown with. From what I have seen, it all boils down to this: There is generally no substitute for flight time and experience.

I'm sorry if Purpledog took offense that my experience of nearly 30 years of professional dealings doesn't support his perceptions or self image.

Skippy

 

[pilot141]

Conciliatory? I thought Diesel's comments were asinine and foolish,and said as much in not so many words. I thought the poster who started this thread was a bloody idiot, another whiner that can't or won't pull his weight, and certainly isn't needed in the work force where he can add to the problems instead of being part of a soloution. I thought most of the respondants here were certainly a lot more professional, and clearly most if not all of them are, or were, officers.

Don't like it, don't read it, mate.

I've never had a need or desire in my life to be conciliatory to you, or anybody else, and I won't start now. Thanks for playing.

For the record, the "conciliatory" comment was in regard to MY post, which you followed with another stir-the-pot post. I wasn't asking you to be conciliatory, and you've obviously got your Internet spurs on and all fired up so I'll be moving on.

Merry Christmas, especially to those folks (both military AND civilian) who find themselves away from home today. Fly safe!

 

[Kuma]

OK, now I have to get into this thread.

As for what WillowRunVortex said...well, yes and no. I have been in two services and by far, the Air Force is more concerned any time that something is not operating as designed. In the AF, "if you are looking at the yellow pages" (which means you are in the emergency part of the manual), then declare an emergency. When I was in the Marine Corps you could have high temps, low pressures or failed engines, but you didn't declare an emergency unless you thought that you needed assistance once on the ground (fire truck, ambulance, etc). If you had handled the inproperly functioning system properly, and expected to land uneventually, then you didn't declare the emergency at all. In the AF, they expect you to declare an emergency any time a caution light illuminates.

We all react like we've been trained. Some training may be too concervative, some may be too free, but none of it is "wrong". WillowRunVortex's company should have done a better job of training their pilots to the standards they want enforced. I think that removing the other pilot's ability to talk on the radio is short sighted and possibly an example of an in-experienced PIC. Instead of yanking his comm cord, couldn't you have told him to inform ATC that you were not declaring an emergency, but that you did need to return to Airport KXXX to land?

Kuma

 

[hooker23]

Some very eloquent and informative replies, thanks. Just to make sure, I went back and checked my original post. Its says nothing about flying abilities of either military or civilian. I started out in this world flying civilian and have met some outstanding pilots on the civilian side. I look forward to flying with them in the future. There are also great aviators in the Army and other uniformed services. There are also the duds, both civilian and military. To FURTHER clarify my original post: I am looking at getting out of the military and reading the various threads on FI scared me. It sounds like civilian aviation is about to implode. How can any company possibly advance with so much gloom and doom? So thats what I was asking. Do most pilots complain about their civilian jobs? If so, then I can take 99% of FI threads with a grain of salt. Thanks to those of you out there keeping posts positive.

To those civilian pilots who like ragging on military pilots who are new to the civilian side: we (military pilots) could do the same to you and more if you came over to the military side, but most of us don't when we get new pilots in. Its called being professional. I recently progressed an Embry Riddle grad in the CH47D, in a combat zone mind you. This was his first operational duty assignment. There was a ton he did wrong but flaming him doesn't help in the cockpit. We took a new guy and brought him up to our standards. I would expect the same from a civilian IP when I enter that world.

 

[pilotyip]

Vortex does not reflect the entire YIP on-demand community, engine failures are not normal events. When it happens there is logbook write up and an engine performance check signed off by maintenance before that airplane flies again. In the cases he describes, the F/O's should not have declared an emergency without the CA's approval. However having declared emergencies in my civilian life, I have never had to do anything but file an irregularity report with my company. But I have found that because of the assumed paperwork Vortex mentions, that many civilian background pilots are hesitate to declare an emergency. To clarify when an emergency should be declared we have SOP that covers when an emergency should be declared. We train it in the sim and enforce in line operations. Should a pilot elect not to declare under the situations defined in the SOP that he would be filling a different type of irregularity report and explaining to the CP why? If you have a problem, you let ATC know so they can be prepared to help if necessary, plus the emergency gives you relief from the regs. It is good thing to declare early when that engine flames out at 350 because if you didn’t and you are descending a for a relight and ATC says stop your descent at FL320 for traffic at 310, whoops now you better declare. The mighty DA-20 will not maintain 320 on a single engine you need help.

 

[Say Again Over]

Getting back to the thread, I have spent many hours flying, with both civilian and previous military types, learn a thing or two from both, but the one thing they all have in common is complaining, no matter how much they're making, whatever.

 

[Laxman]

All I have to say is that Mil flying and Civ flying are very different. Its an apples and oranges kinda argument. Whoever it was talking about all the problems mil pilots have converting to civ, multi 1000 hr civ pilots going through SUPT in the AF have their fair share of problems too. A guy in my class had 2000 hrs, w/ 800 IFR and almost failed out 3 times in phase two. Good instrument pilot, just not used to banking her up and pulling. He did almost killed me in the pattern when we were flying around solo. Then he almost side swiped another jet. That wasnt cool. In the end, he finally figured out why not to fly through an active MOA VFR