Whats up with civi pilots?

[Fury220]

...else you might not resort to threats. Here, or elsewhere. Don't forget. There's always someone faster, better, bigger, tougher.

Hmm...I can see how my words could be taken as a threat, even though that was not the intent. Rather: "Don't go there."

Family is almost sacred territory for most people. Even if I were to give Diesel a huge benefit of the doubt and assume that he was "joking," it's still a joke in bad taste. Horizontal mambo with a serviceman's wife/daughter while he's putting his life on the line overseas? Nothing but bad taste, my friend. Are you going to call Diesel on the carpet, too? Hmm...

Eat your own pizza. Watch your own movie. Don't worry about what the other guy is doing, particularly in the event you haven't walked in his shoes.

Agreed.

 

[Fury220]

what does twoop mean?

Standard intra-formation "AFFIRM" response to a directive/informative call from lead made by the number two aircraft. It should sound sharp on the radio, hence the "TWOOP!"

 

[YGBSM]

Don't be sorry. Civilian flying is a joke compared to military flying. That is why there will always be an inseparable gulf between pure civilian background pilots and military background pilots. On the other hand, civilians don't have to write ground training programs, wear MOP gear, get anthrax shots, and watch their friends become smoking holes. You go civilian for either QOL, pay, or both, not because the flying is better. And in today's environment, while the QOL will very probably be better, the pay has certainly eroded, and the flying is boring. You pick a path, and take what comes, hopefully after MUCH thought and investigation.

I do agree with the general concensus - a certain amount of bi*ching is OK, but past an undefined point, gets really old.

Don't worry, I'm not really sorry.

Most of the guys shouting the loudest in the (retarded) mil vs. civ debate are guys who have done one or the other exclusively and know absolutely nothing about the other side. Why guys like this get butt hurt when someone who knows nothing about their kind of flying calls them out is beyond me, but that's what always happens, and then you have the f@ck you contest. I suspect it's because they are secretly terrified that somebody might know more about the flying game than they do, but who knows.

Having flown fighters, mil helos, airliners, some ag, and the alaska bush, I feel somewhat qualified to comment on which is more fun, more demanding, more boring, more whatever, and it's more than a little amusing when some guy with 2000 hours in Navajos and King Airs gets on here and tells someone what it takes to fly a fighter. The opposite is also pretty funny.

I give Fury a lot of crap on here because he is both a young guy and a FAIP, but I agree 100% (for once) with what he said here:

Originally Posted by Fury220
Notice, I don't comment much about what you guys do. Why? Well, my knowledge base is small when it comes to your job. I respect the guys on the other side of the fence who do the same.

I think a lot of the friction here on FI.com arises when pilots (both civ AND mil) cross that line and talk out of their stinky holes on topics they know very little about.


Well said. You insecure homos may now continue bitch slapping each other.

 

[Fury220]

I give Fury a lot of crap on here because he is both a young guy and a FAIP, but I agree 100% (for once) with what he said here:

Originally Posted by Fury220
Notice, I don't comment much about what you guys do. Why? Well, my knowledge base is small when it comes to your job. I respect the guys on the other side of the fence who do the same.

I think a lot of the friction here on FI.com arises when pilots (both civ AND mil) cross that line and talk out of their stinky holes on topics they know very little about.


Well said. You insecure homos may now continue bitch slapping each other.

I almost shed a tear...but I didn't, so don't worry.

 

[Spooky 1]

What a f-ed up thread!!!!!! You guys are great, keeps me amused. Happy Holidays!!!!

Please.....just go away. Another stupid contributor to this thread, we don't need right now.

 

[AdlerDriver]

......... Where are you coming from anyway? ......What is it that you bring to the table that makes you a qualifed pilot to comment on these issues? .......

I'll answer that Spooky 1. Arguably one of the worst cases of insecurity to be displayed on this forum. :laugh:

 

[Diesel]

Ugh now this thread is really picking up.

Speaking of touching kids is Hillary Duff 18 yet?

So if i had made fun of the original poster (can't even remember his name) ending up with a Tranny that would be okay. Hmmmmmmm

Fights on.

(Sitting back enjoying the banter)

 

[talondriver]

Standard intra-formation "AFFIRM" response to a directive/informative call from lead made by the number two aircraft. It should sound sharp on the radio, hence the "TWOOP!"

actually...sounds like "TOOP". A sharp "TWO" would also suffice. Sorry..the spelling confused me as well

What was this thread about again???

 

[G-Stream]

Theres alot to be said for both.
I got out after 14yrs AD and went to a regional that is on the brink of past history, but when I went there 5 years ago it was the place to be.
I took a 60% cut in pay but gained a 60% increase in happiness.
In order to have food with my meals, I also did the Guard thing and made twice as much there, in half the time.
Now 5 years later my "Big airline job" is nearly history and Ill be starting from scratch again.

I dont know how much active time you have, but if I may suggest, I would say get out and try it. The airline life style is great and I had a blast for the last 5 years. Its night and day compared to the military.
I met alot of good people there, and some not so good ones, just like the military.

Get out, get hired, and then join the guard/reserves.

The military unlike the airlines are stable well paying employment. So if you find its not for you, I guarantee you you can go back in and pick up right where you left off.

In fact you could do that for 5+ years while the seniority keeps clicking along, work on a retirement from the AD, guard or reserves that will equal an FO's salary for the rest of your life, and then come back to the airline when you can make a decent wage.

People, and pilots complain about stuff all the time but as long as youre enjoying it then who cares.

 

[SIG600]

This thread just seems like it'll never end... could it break the "dorky pilot" series record? Stay tuned.

 

[Fury220]

This thread just seems like it'll never end... could it break the "dorky pilot" series record? Stay tuned.

Do you have your copy of "2" yet? I've ordered mine, but it hasn't come in yet

I heard a couple of the new songs at their Tinker AFB show back in April. Hilarious.

 

[avbug]

Avbug..............wow. I always enjoy your view points and I seem recall a similar thread where you were going to waste someone if they so much as touched a child. Also recall passing along similar advice to you then. I'm happy, if not suprised that you are taking considering my point of view before you attempt to kick the other guys ass.

I know the thread to which you refer. It had become very juvinile, and it was occuring at the time Mark was killed. I didn't feel responses at that time, in that thread, appropriate due to circumstances which seemed to overshadow such issues.

However, seeing as you brought it up, my point of view then is no different than now. I do not support child abuse in any way, shape, or form, and uncategorically state for the record that I will do anything I deem necessary and appropriate to the circumstances to prevent it, without any limitations of any kind, and without hesitation or pause. That may be a few choice words, or it may be anything you can imagine, as the situation dictates. For that I make no apology. Then, or now.

That has nothing to do with this thread, however.

Family is almost sacred territory for most people. Even if I were to give Diesel a huge benefit of the doubt and assume that he was "joking," it's still a joke in bad taste. Horizontal mambo with a serviceman's wife/daughter while he's putting his life on the line overseas? Nothing but bad taste, my friend.

No arguement there. However, if he wants my ex-wife and/or mother-in-law, I'll gift wrap them and deliver.

Are you going to call Diesel on the carpet, too? Hmm...

No. I believe he works for netjets, so I feel bad for him already...and his comments speak for themselves. I'd say he set himself up for his own solo "carpet dance."

 

[hooker23]

Wow. Five pages to this thread. I never would have guessed. Didn't mean to poke the dragon. I take it this has been "discussed" before. I haven't flown civilian in 8 years and am wondering what peoples experiences have been transitioning from military to civilian flying and dealing with different attitudes that civlians have. The Army is great security in a strange world, not sure if I will get out any time soon. I'm institutionalized!! Thanks to those of you that wrote sane, intelligent answers to my first questions. I appreciate it. To those of you that took offense to my first post -- get a life and some thicker skin.

 

[Gorilla]

I'm going to try and summarize a bit, this coming from a guy with a mixed experience basket. I started flying (gliders) in 1976, and haven't stopped since.

Flying - It is intuitively obvious that there are different types of flying mission, and I see nothing wrong with presenting an opinion on them. Some have their origins in the military, some purely civilian pax and cargo, and others of a pseudo-military style, like the guys in old piston bombers who sling water on forest fires.

Civilian - You have the Duke's stories. Unbelievable stuff that would humble the cockiest fighter jock. And you also have scheduled air carrier flying. Unbelievably boring stuff, but with all too rare moments when it's all on the line, except you have no nylon letdown, and 100 to 350 people are depending upon you to save them.

Military - the mission runs the gamut from tame to "I'm gonna die." A dollar ride in a Tweet can encompass both of these! But by far, the most demanding and extreme flying mission has been the world of large force air-air and air-mud fighters. This has also for me been the most satisfying and excting. Nothing else comes close.

Guys contemplating the .mil mission, or exiting .mil and pursuing other flying, have a legitimate interest on what the mission will be.

Let me move on to the People, who are ultimately more important than the mission. On the first leg of a three-day, we usually find out what the other guy did in his prior life. And guess what? Nobody really gives a $h!t if I may use that word in this context. It's how well the dude flies NOW, not 10 years ago. Is the guy fun to fly with? Does he drink coffee and like BBQ? I'll buy a starbucks and a Dickeys. Does he fly R/C models, have a Harley? We find points of common interest and have a good time.

And pretty soon, no one remembers, or cares, what the other guy did 15 years ago.

Peace on Earth, my friends...

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I think the military vs civilian question is interesting. We have a pretty even mix of backgrounds at my company and we all play nice together. Its remarkable how we all end up pretty much the same no matter how we got there.

I do think that there might be some general, not-always-true, differences though.

The military guys love their procedures. Civilian guys more often could take them or leave them.

Military guys are sometimes shocked at how quickly they are thrown onto the line. "But aren't we going to learn xyz first?!" "What's the procedure for abc?!"

In extreme cases you will find a military guy who states that he will take no action unless there is a checklist for it. They about blow their minds when Flight Safety points out checklist problems where following the approved checklist will lead you down the wrong path so they show you what you really need to do instead. Heresy!!!

I know Diesel, he was just trying to yank some chains. My post is my honest opinion, but also figure it will yank a chain or two.

 

[Spooky 1]

I think the military vs civilian question is interesting. We have a pretty even mix of backgrounds at my company and we all play nice together. Its remarkable how we all end up pretty much the same no matter how we got there.

I do think that there might be some general, not-always-true, differences though.

The military guys love their procedures. Civilian guys more often could take them or leave them.

Military guys are sometimes shocked at how quickly they are thrown onto the line. "But aren't we going to learn xyz first?!" "What's the procedure for abc?!"

In extreme cases you will find a military guy who states that he will take no action unless there is a checklist for it. They about blow their minds when Flight Safety points out checklist problems where following the approved checklist will lead you down the wrong path so they show you what you really need to do instead. Heresy!!!

I know Diesel, he was just trying to yank some chains. My post is my honest opinion, but also figure it will yank a chain or two.

I know a few retired airline/military types that have gone over to NetJets recently and all of them have nothing but the finest compliments for the NetJets pilots group. Maybe I am reading something into your statements that is not there. Or, perhaps you might site an example of where the guys are coming up short in your opinion. I would agree that fighter pilot types use a different part of their brain than say a C5 pilot, but in either case I suspect that they are both extremely capable pilots and are certainly capable of following procedures or thinking outside the box when conditions warrant.

You have peaked my interest here. Excactly what does an instructor at FSI teach that is not a part of the normal/non-normal procedures? Examples please?

 

[Junkflyer]

I'd recommend making your 20 then flying civilian, that way you'd have a pension. The way things are now, you can work somewhere 20 or 30 years and they change the plan and you end up with $hit.
There are a lot of whiny pussies, but also a lot of good guys too.

 

[LJDRVR]

Holy Crud!

I was thinking: "How nice this thread hasn't degenerated into the whole whose-penis-is-bigger rant fest." Looks like my sentiments were premature.

Anybody on either side of the fence trying to make a case that their background is better simply doesn't understand that the two are apples and oranges. Totally different animals so to speak. What Fury 220 does moving studs and their gradesheets through the timeline bears almost no resembalance to my flying the line for 80 hours a month in an airliner. Could Fury learn to do my job? Sure, no sweat! Could I learn to do his? Yes, but it would take a lot more work to get me there, particularly in the formation department. Does this make Fury a better pilot than I? NOBODY KNOWS and NOBODY CARES! He is my brother Aviator and that's all that matters.

You self-indulgent losers enganged in self-agrandizing chest-thumping (And you know who you are...) need to get a life.

Deisel- You are a world class tool. How dare you make disparaging comments about the family memers of those citizens who serve our country, protecting your right to publicly demonstrate your brazen stupidity to the world. Making public comments about sexual relationships with the spouses and daughters of servicemembers, on a public bulletin board where everybody knows your employer and several know your identity? Your stupidy and taste know no bounds.

Watch your six turd.

 

[talondriver]

I think the military vs civilian question is interesting. We have a pretty even mix of backgrounds at my company and we all play nice together. Its remarkable how we all end up pretty much the same no matter how we got there.

I do think that there might be some general, not-always-true, differences though.

The military guys love their procedures. Civilian guys more often could take them or leave them.

Military guys are sometimes shocked at how quickly they are thrown onto the line. "But aren't we going to learn xyz first?!" "What's the procedure for abc?!"

In extreme cases you will find a military guy who states that he will take no action unless there is a checklist for it. They about blow their minds when Flight Safety points out checklist problems where following the approved checklist will lead you down the wrong path so they show you what you really need to do instead. Heresy!!!

I know Diesel, he was just trying to yank some chains. My post is my honest opinion, but also figure it will yank a chain or two.

Military guys love their procedures because that's how they were taught from day one. When you have a thousand things to do before you cross the FEBA (be it in a C-17 or A-10) it's nice to have a checklist/procedure to prevent missing something important...like mode 4 or master arm/ECM. Then, when you've just killed something or dropped a bunch of grunts out the back in-country and the adrenaline is high psi, it's nice to look at a checklist or have a procedure to remember to get the gear down at Al Udeid.

I too, would like to know more about FSI and their practices with bogus checklists.

 

[Diesel]

I was in sim with an ex military army guy who said that the memory items for the blackhawk were 20 steps long. Now that's a long memory item but i think if you're in a helicopter you have minimum time to get down. Are memory items or checklists more prevelant in helicopters?

One of the checklist items in the X has you not crossover electrical power from one engine to the other for a while down the checklist. Well if you do the checklist exactly right down the line you don't cross over power until like step 15 or so. By that time when you do crossover power and you still have any juice left in the battery and bus the tubes are either blank or when you crossover the spike actually melts the battery because of the overcharge.

So to stop that you do a memory non memory item. As soon as you lose the left engine you imediatly hit the crossover switch to parallel the power. During one sim i decided to do it just by the numbers because it's a sim and that's how we're supposed to do it in real life.

Well guess what i lost all the tubes and ended up flying the sim on stby gauges. Made a believer out of me right away but fsi won't change the checklist. So it's a memory non-memory item.

Make sense? It doesn't to me but i've tried it both ways.

Then reverse the question. Wouldn't fsi be able to fail you if you flip a switch without a checklist that's not a memory item? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. So they should just make it a memory item but they won't do that either.

So when you're doing your checkride you're dammed if you do dammed if you don't.

 

[pilot141]

Everyone should be giving mad props to Hooker for actually stepping back into this firestorm that he unintentionally created.

For everyone: Gee, you think the Mil vs civ thing has been debated before? Of course it has.

Nothing changes, other than those arguing. And that is the point.

Notice how the guys arguing most loudly in the mil/civ debate are at the front end of their careers.

In the mil guy's case, he's wide-eyed, energized and has his hair on fire to fly the next mission (in fact he cant' even wait to come off leave - he's got to be in a jet NOW!)

In the civ guy's case, he's bleary-eyed and dragging ass but has his logbook on fire because he's logging a shiatload of jet PIC in actual IMC and can't wait until he gets to the hotel.

In both cases the guy is busting his ass doing something that takes a ton of training to do. In both cases the guy actually LOVES what he does. In both cases the guy is a better pilot when he wakes up in the morning with more experience in his logbook.

But both have a lot to learn about aviation - and that learning is called experience.

It can't be taught in a two-week course at Nellis or in a seminar in Denver. It takes TIME.......time flying for any air carrier, or time flying in the military past the initial commitment.

Time to recognize that aviation is an almost incomprehensibly broad field with an amazing amount of specialties. Time to realize that taking a checkride as a 727 Flight Engineer is probably one of the most narrowly focused aviation events on Earth. Time to realize that a lot of people know a LOT of stuff that you don't know about flying airplanes. Time to realize that you are never too old, tired, experienced, new, young or inexperienced to learn something about an airplane.

Time to appreciate that mastery of our profession is a constantly shifting goal and that there is always something new to learn, or some lesson to learn from someone else. Time to realize that retiring and getting on that lake/beach/ski slope is not easily met.

Time is your friend.....the more you have, the smarter you get. It works for all aspects of aviation!

 

[avbug]

Mad props?

One of the checklist items in the X has you not crossover electrical power from one engine to the other for a while down the checklist. Well if you do the checklist exactly right down the line you don't cross over power until like step 15 or so. By that time when you do crossover power and you still have any juice left in the battery and bus the tubes are either blank or when you crossover the spike actually melts the battery because of the overcharge.

So to stop that you do a memory non memory item. As soon as you lose the left engine you imediatly hit the crossover switch to parallel the power. During one sim i decided to do it just by the numbers because it's a sim and that's how we're supposed to do it in real life.

A checklist isn't necessarily a do-list, as you've probably heard many, many, many times before.

Flow checks are appropriately backed up by checklists...where appropriate.

Just how long does it take you to execute those fifteen items that your bats are going dead that fast?

"Gee, there's that pesky pressure bump again."

"Yeah, and everything is frosted over. Look! I can see my breath!"

"Hey, you're turning blue!"

"So are you! You look like Violet Bouregard in Charlie and the Chocolate factory."

"Yeah, that was so bogus. I liked the Gene Wilder version better."

"Too right. Hey, we oughta, ah, do, something...checklist, can't think, uh, what does it say?"

"Ah, right, right, right, right, right you are. Which one would you like?"

"Ah, lets do that first one, what was it? Ah, pressure something. Descent, something like that. I know it was pretty important."

"Hey, I'm blind! This is so cool!"

"Me too, and my lips are numb. I feel just like when I'm drunk!"

"Me too. Too bad the checklist isn't in brail. Put on your mask."

"There, that's better. I can see the checklist now. That's it. Put on mask. Don mask. Why would anybody name their mask 'Don'?"

"I think that's just a fancy way of saying put it on. Okay, we did that part. What's next?"

"Oh, yeah. Don mask. Don. That's funny. Don't they know it's the modern age?"

"Totally."

"Don the mask, select one hundred percent. One hundred percent what?"

"I think they mean push this button here."

"Oh. Hey, it makes more noise? I can't understand what you're saying. Hey, watch this! Luke! I am your father, Luke!"

"Cool."

"Select one hudred percent. We got that. Thrust levers to idle."

"How come they're not called 'throttles,' any more?"

"Cause we're not using carburetors."

"Really?"

"Really. Dude, I can't understand anything you're saying with that mask on. You gotta take it off."

"Roger."

"Dude, open your eyes and finish the checklist. I gotta know what comes next? Wake up, okay. This isn't any time to take a break. Aw, nuts. Okay, thrust levers to idle. Oxygen mask microphone, mask. Now there's one I've always disagreed with. They have this checklist all backward. Chestlick. Checklist. Now that's funny. Backward. I'll start it from the end, like doing a maze backward. Autopilot disengage, spoilers extend. Well, now, that could have been done, differently. I mean, I think I should be setting the altitude alerter and putting engaging autoflight on airspeed, but that's not in the checklist. Gotta follow the checklist. Must follow the checklist. Cannot act or breathe before refering to the checklist. This mask is really tight. I'm just going to take it off so I can breathe..."

 

[pilot141]

And after another conciliatory attempt Avbug dumps all over the thead.

Give it a rest.

Besides, Avbug, if you want to go for anal checklists look no further than FedEx....a civilian, Part 121 Supp carrier. Look at the panic on a Captain's face when he recovers from a GPWS warning and tries to remember the name of the checklist to run......

 

[Huggyu2]

Pilot141,
I, for one, thought that was one of the best posts I've read in quite a while. In fact, being a not-so-eloquent-fella, I'm going to steal some of your phrases, if you don't mind. Good words.

 

[avbug]

Conciliatory? I thought Diesel's comments were asinine and foolish,and said as much in not so many words. I thought the poster who started this thread was a bloody idiot, another whiner that can't or won't pull his weight, and certainly isn't needed in the work force where he can add to the problems instead of being part of a soloution. I thought most of the respondants here were certainly a lot more professional, and clearly most if not all of them are, or were, officers.

Don't like it, don't read it, mate.

I've never had a need or desire in my life to be conciliatory to you, or anybody else, and I won't start now. Thanks for playing.

 

[Lead Sled]

Here we go again...

Over my career I've had the opportunity to fly with dozens of current and ex-military pilots from all branches of the service. I've seen some very sharp ex-military pilots and I've seen ones that didn't quite measure up - and in about the same proportion as the civilian pilots I've flown with. From what I have seen, it all boils down to this: There is generally no substitute for flight time and experience. I'll be the first to admit that flight time isn't everything (I've flown with some high-time bozos. and some low-time guys that flew a good airplane), but you guys know what I'm saying.

Several years ago, I was an instructor at a 141 flight school that did a lot of "GI Bill" training for military and ex-military pilots. I worked with many individuals whose military experience that ran the whole gamut - fighter, bomber, and transport. The transport guys did the best. They were the ones whose experience most closely paralleled what one would encounter in the "real world" of civilian flying. In most cases, it was very easy to transition these people in the allotted time and they, as a group, did very well on the check rides that followed.

The fighter pilots were an entirely different story. The attributes that make a good fighter pilot do not necessarily make the transition into the civilian world. While most of the transport guys were ready well within the allotted time, almost all of the fighter types required the entire program time allotment and even then, there were a few who were pretty "rough". They were good fighter pilots – they could "mix it up" with the best of them. Unfortunately, these are skills rarely required in today's world of airline and corporate flying. The problem was they were good and they knew it and it was hard to tell them anything - they already knew it all.

Three or four years ago I had the opportunity to fly with a recently retired F-15 fighter pilot. The colonel and I flew an Astra SPX all over the country - a couple of hundred hours worth. On paper, his credentials were impressive - nearly 6,000 hours of jet fighter time and all that goes with it. In reality, his 6,000 hours of military time provided him with an equivalent of perhaps 2,000 hours of civilian experience. Basic things that we would take for granted with a civilian pilot with 6,000 hours were just not there. Skills like the use of weather radar, FMS operation, etc. and even basic instrument approaches had not been honed because they were of little practical use in the military environment. In this particular pilot's case, by his own admission, he had flown less than 5 actual ILS approaches to minimums during his entire career. (We did more that that the first month we flew together.) He was also not comfortable in serious IFR weather or operating at the various high density airports that we frequented. He felt as out of place in "our" element as I would have felt in his. He was forced to play some serious "catch up ball" but he eventually caught on; just as many of us would also be able to catch on if given the opportunity to fly in the military.

You military guys definitely have a leg up when your service flying is over, but don’t for a minute think that you’re going to be able to step right out of your military jet into the left seat of a civilian bizjet. It most likely ain't going to happen. The big issue I've found when it come to military guys is attitude - it will make or break you in the civilian world.

Merry Christmas

'Sled

 

[Purpledog]

You military guys definitely have a leg up when your service flying is over, but don’t for a minute think that you’re going to be able to step right out of your military jet into the left seat of a civilian bizjet. It most likely ain't going to happen. The big issue I've found when it come to military guys is attitude - it will make or break you in the civilian world.

I have refrained from this idiotic thread, until now. I went to the 'esteemed' flight safety. I have a fighter background and my sim partner had a mil helo background (with less than 500 fixed wing hours). By the third sim our instructor was twiddling his thumbs wondering what he could do to us for the rest of the course. Neither of us are God's gift to avaition either. His exact quote was, "I love teaching you mil guys because you come prepared". Your colonel could have had the "Old dog, new trick syndrome". FMS/EFIS ins't hard to learn to use for someone who grew up in the computer age, but it just might be for someone who can't check email. Is that a good setup to lead this in the direction of why they shouldn't change the retirement age? Here we go................

 

[Lead Sled]

By the third sim our instructor was twiddling his thumbs wondering what he could do to us for the rest of the course. Neither of us are God's gift to avaition either. His exact quote was, "I love teaching you mil guys because you come prepared".

And I suppose that you think that only ex-military pilots are capable of that level of performance in the sim?

 

[semperfido]

c'mon guys--give it a rest.

 

[taloft]

A corporate chief pilot once remarked, "When you guys stop bitching, then I'll know it's time to start worrying."

I guess to a certain extent, it's part of the culture. Though I know military pilots who've told me the same thing can happen there. Shrug.

I wouldn't form my view of all civillian pilots from posts on an internet forum. Nor would it be wise to stereotype military pilots or pretty much members of any group based on the vocal anonymity of teh interweb.