Whats up with civi pilots?

[Spooky 1]

I think the military vs civilian question is interesting. We have a pretty even mix of backgrounds at my company and we all play nice together. Its remarkable how we all end up pretty much the same no matter how we got there.

I do think that there might be some general, not-always-true, differences though.

The military guys love their procedures. Civilian guys more often could take them or leave them.

Military guys are sometimes shocked at how quickly they are thrown onto the line. "But aren't we going to learn xyz first?!" "What's the procedure for abc?!"

In extreme cases you will find a military guy who states that he will take no action unless there is a checklist for it. They about blow their minds when Flight Safety points out checklist problems where following the approved checklist will lead you down the wrong path so they show you what you really need to do instead. Heresy!!!

I know Diesel, he was just trying to yank some chains. My post is my honest opinion, but also figure it will yank a chain or two.

I know a few retired airline/military types that have gone over to NetJets recently and all of them have nothing but the finest compliments for the NetJets pilots group. Maybe I am reading something into your statements that is not there. Or, perhaps you might site an example of where the guys are coming up short in your opinion. I would agree that fighter pilot types use a different part of their brain than say a C5 pilot, but in either case I suspect that they are both extremely capable pilots and are certainly capable of following procedures or thinking outside the box when conditions warrant.

You have peaked my interest here. Excactly what does an instructor at FSI teach that is not a part of the normal/non-normal procedures? Examples please?

 

[Junkflyer]

I'd recommend making your 20 then flying civilian, that way you'd have a pension. The way things are now, you can work somewhere 20 or 30 years and they change the plan and you end up with $hit.
There are a lot of whiny pussies, but also a lot of good guys too.

 

[LJDRVR]

Holy Crud!

I was thinking: "How nice this thread hasn't degenerated into the whole whose-penis-is-bigger rant fest." Looks like my sentiments were premature.

Anybody on either side of the fence trying to make a case that their background is better simply doesn't understand that the two are apples and oranges. Totally different animals so to speak. What Fury 220 does moving studs and their gradesheets through the timeline bears almost no resembalance to my flying the line for 80 hours a month in an airliner. Could Fury learn to do my job? Sure, no sweat! Could I learn to do his? Yes, but it would take a lot more work to get me there, particularly in the formation department. Does this make Fury a better pilot than I? NOBODY KNOWS and NOBODY CARES! He is my brother Aviator and that's all that matters.

You self-indulgent losers enganged in self-agrandizing chest-thumping (And you know who you are...) need to get a life.

Deisel- You are a world class tool. How dare you make disparaging comments about the family memers of those citizens who serve our country, protecting your right to publicly demonstrate your brazen stupidity to the world. Making public comments about sexual relationships with the spouses and daughters of servicemembers, on a public bulletin board where everybody knows your employer and several know your identity? Your stupidy and taste know no bounds.

Watch your six turd.

 

[talondriver]

I think the military vs civilian question is interesting. We have a pretty even mix of backgrounds at my company and we all play nice together. Its remarkable how we all end up pretty much the same no matter how we got there.

I do think that there might be some general, not-always-true, differences though.

The military guys love their procedures. Civilian guys more often could take them or leave them.

Military guys are sometimes shocked at how quickly they are thrown onto the line. "But aren't we going to learn xyz first?!" "What's the procedure for abc?!"

In extreme cases you will find a military guy who states that he will take no action unless there is a checklist for it. They about blow their minds when Flight Safety points out checklist problems where following the approved checklist will lead you down the wrong path so they show you what you really need to do instead. Heresy!!!

I know Diesel, he was just trying to yank some chains. My post is my honest opinion, but also figure it will yank a chain or two.

Military guys love their procedures because that's how they were taught from day one. When you have a thousand things to do before you cross the FEBA (be it in a C-17 or A-10) it's nice to have a checklist/procedure to prevent missing something important...like mode 4 or master arm/ECM. Then, when you've just killed something or dropped a bunch of grunts out the back in-country and the adrenaline is high psi, it's nice to look at a checklist or have a procedure to remember to get the gear down at Al Udeid.

I too, would like to know more about FSI and their practices with bogus checklists.

 

[Diesel]

I was in sim with an ex military army guy who said that the memory items for the blackhawk were 20 steps long. Now that's a long memory item but i think if you're in a helicopter you have minimum time to get down. Are memory items or checklists more prevelant in helicopters?

One of the checklist items in the X has you not crossover electrical power from one engine to the other for a while down the checklist. Well if you do the checklist exactly right down the line you don't cross over power until like step 15 or so. By that time when you do crossover power and you still have any juice left in the battery and bus the tubes are either blank or when you crossover the spike actually melts the battery because of the overcharge.

So to stop that you do a memory non memory item. As soon as you lose the left engine you imediatly hit the crossover switch to parallel the power. During one sim i decided to do it just by the numbers because it's a sim and that's how we're supposed to do it in real life.

Well guess what i lost all the tubes and ended up flying the sim on stby gauges. Made a believer out of me right away but fsi won't change the checklist. So it's a memory non-memory item.

Make sense? It doesn't to me but i've tried it both ways.

Then reverse the question. Wouldn't fsi be able to fail you if you flip a switch without a checklist that's not a memory item? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. So they should just make it a memory item but they won't do that either.

So when you're doing your checkride you're dammed if you do dammed if you don't.

 

[pilot141]

Everyone should be giving mad props to Hooker for actually stepping back into this firestorm that he unintentionally created.

For everyone: Gee, you think the Mil vs civ thing has been debated before? Of course it has.

Nothing changes, other than those arguing. And that is the point.

Notice how the guys arguing most loudly in the mil/civ debate are at the front end of their careers.

In the mil guy's case, he's wide-eyed, energized and has his hair on fire to fly the next mission (in fact he cant' even wait to come off leave - he's got to be in a jet NOW!)

In the civ guy's case, he's bleary-eyed and dragging ass but has his logbook on fire because he's logging a shiatload of jet PIC in actual IMC and can't wait until he gets to the hotel.

In both cases the guy is busting his ass doing something that takes a ton of training to do. In both cases the guy actually LOVES what he does. In both cases the guy is a better pilot when he wakes up in the morning with more experience in his logbook.

But both have a lot to learn about aviation - and that learning is called experience.

It can't be taught in a two-week course at Nellis or in a seminar in Denver. It takes TIME.......time flying for any air carrier, or time flying in the military past the initial commitment.

Time to recognize that aviation is an almost incomprehensibly broad field with an amazing amount of specialties. Time to realize that taking a checkride as a 727 Flight Engineer is probably one of the most narrowly focused aviation events on Earth. Time to realize that a lot of people know a LOT of stuff that you don't know about flying airplanes. Time to realize that you are never too old, tired, experienced, new, young or inexperienced to learn something about an airplane.

Time to appreciate that mastery of our profession is a constantly shifting goal and that there is always something new to learn, or some lesson to learn from someone else. Time to realize that retiring and getting on that lake/beach/ski slope is not easily met.

Time is your friend.....the more you have, the smarter you get. It works for all aspects of aviation!

 

[avbug]

Mad props?

One of the checklist items in the X has you not crossover electrical power from one engine to the other for a while down the checklist. Well if you do the checklist exactly right down the line you don't cross over power until like step 15 or so. By that time when you do crossover power and you still have any juice left in the battery and bus the tubes are either blank or when you crossover the spike actually melts the battery because of the overcharge.

So to stop that you do a memory non memory item. As soon as you lose the left engine you imediatly hit the crossover switch to parallel the power. During one sim i decided to do it just by the numbers because it's a sim and that's how we're supposed to do it in real life.

A checklist isn't necessarily a do-list, as you've probably heard many, many, many times before.

Flow checks are appropriately backed up by checklists...where appropriate.

Just how long does it take you to execute those fifteen items that your bats are going dead that fast?

"Gee, there's that pesky pressure bump again."

"Yeah, and everything is frosted over. Look! I can see my breath!"

"Hey, you're turning blue!"

"So are you! You look like Violet Bouregard in Charlie and the Chocolate factory."

"Yeah, that was so bogus. I liked the Gene Wilder version better."

"Too right. Hey, we oughta, ah, do, something...checklist, can't think, uh, what does it say?"

"Ah, right, right, right, right, right you are. Which one would you like?"

"Ah, lets do that first one, what was it? Ah, pressure something. Descent, something like that. I know it was pretty important."

"Hey, I'm blind! This is so cool!"

"Me too, and my lips are numb. I feel just like when I'm drunk!"

"Me too. Too bad the checklist isn't in brail. Put on your mask."

"There, that's better. I can see the checklist now. That's it. Put on mask. Don mask. Why would anybody name their mask 'Don'?"

"I think that's just a fancy way of saying put it on. Okay, we did that part. What's next?"

"Oh, yeah. Don mask. Don. That's funny. Don't they know it's the modern age?"

"Totally."

"Don the mask, select one hundred percent. One hundred percent what?"

"I think they mean push this button here."

"Oh. Hey, it makes more noise? I can't understand what you're saying. Hey, watch this! Luke! I am your father, Luke!"

"Cool."

"Select one hudred percent. We got that. Thrust levers to idle."

"How come they're not called 'throttles,' any more?"

"Cause we're not using carburetors."

"Really?"

"Really. Dude, I can't understand anything you're saying with that mask on. You gotta take it off."

"Roger."

"Dude, open your eyes and finish the checklist. I gotta know what comes next? Wake up, okay. This isn't any time to take a break. Aw, nuts. Okay, thrust levers to idle. Oxygen mask microphone, mask. Now there's one I've always disagreed with. They have this checklist all backward. Chestlick. Checklist. Now that's funny. Backward. I'll start it from the end, like doing a maze backward. Autopilot disengage, spoilers extend. Well, now, that could have been done, differently. I mean, I think I should be setting the altitude alerter and putting engaging autoflight on airspeed, but that's not in the checklist. Gotta follow the checklist. Must follow the checklist. Cannot act or breathe before refering to the checklist. This mask is really tight. I'm just going to take it off so I can breathe..."

 

[pilot141]

And after another conciliatory attempt Avbug dumps all over the thead.

Give it a rest.

Besides, Avbug, if you want to go for anal checklists look no further than FedEx....a civilian, Part 121 Supp carrier. Look at the panic on a Captain's face when he recovers from a GPWS warning and tries to remember the name of the checklist to run......

 

[Huggyu2]

Pilot141,
I, for one, thought that was one of the best posts I've read in quite a while. In fact, being a not-so-eloquent-fella, I'm going to steal some of your phrases, if you don't mind. Good words.

 

[avbug]

Conciliatory? I thought Diesel's comments were asinine and foolish,and said as much in not so many words. I thought the poster who started this thread was a bloody idiot, another whiner that can't or won't pull his weight, and certainly isn't needed in the work force where he can add to the problems instead of being part of a soloution. I thought most of the respondants here were certainly a lot more professional, and clearly most if not all of them are, or were, officers.

Don't like it, don't read it, mate.

I've never had a need or desire in my life to be conciliatory to you, or anybody else, and I won't start now. Thanks for playing.

 

[Lead Sled]

Here we go again...

Over my career I've had the opportunity to fly with dozens of current and ex-military pilots from all branches of the service. I've seen some very sharp ex-military pilots and I've seen ones that didn't quite measure up - and in about the same proportion as the civilian pilots I've flown with. From what I have seen, it all boils down to this: There is generally no substitute for flight time and experience. I'll be the first to admit that flight time isn't everything (I've flown with some high-time bozos. and some low-time guys that flew a good airplane), but you guys know what I'm saying.

Several years ago, I was an instructor at a 141 flight school that did a lot of "GI Bill" training for military and ex-military pilots. I worked with many individuals whose military experience that ran the whole gamut - fighter, bomber, and transport. The transport guys did the best. They were the ones whose experience most closely paralleled what one would encounter in the "real world" of civilian flying. In most cases, it was very easy to transition these people in the allotted time and they, as a group, did very well on the check rides that followed.

The fighter pilots were an entirely different story. The attributes that make a good fighter pilot do not necessarily make the transition into the civilian world. While most of the transport guys were ready well within the allotted time, almost all of the fighter types required the entire program time allotment and even then, there were a few who were pretty "rough". They were good fighter pilots – they could "mix it up" with the best of them. Unfortunately, these are skills rarely required in today's world of airline and corporate flying. The problem was they were good and they knew it and it was hard to tell them anything - they already knew it all.

Three or four years ago I had the opportunity to fly with a recently retired F-15 fighter pilot. The colonel and I flew an Astra SPX all over the country - a couple of hundred hours worth. On paper, his credentials were impressive - nearly 6,000 hours of jet fighter time and all that goes with it. In reality, his 6,000 hours of military time provided him with an equivalent of perhaps 2,000 hours of civilian experience. Basic things that we would take for granted with a civilian pilot with 6,000 hours were just not there. Skills like the use of weather radar, FMS operation, etc. and even basic instrument approaches had not been honed because they were of little practical use in the military environment. In this particular pilot's case, by his own admission, he had flown less than 5 actual ILS approaches to minimums during his entire career. (We did more that that the first month we flew together.) He was also not comfortable in serious IFR weather or operating at the various high density airports that we frequented. He felt as out of place in "our" element as I would have felt in his. He was forced to play some serious "catch up ball" but he eventually caught on; just as many of us would also be able to catch on if given the opportunity to fly in the military.

You military guys definitely have a leg up when your service flying is over, but don’t for a minute think that you’re going to be able to step right out of your military jet into the left seat of a civilian bizjet. It most likely ain't going to happen. The big issue I've found when it come to military guys is attitude - it will make or break you in the civilian world.

Merry Christmas

'Sled

 

[Purpledog]

You military guys definitely have a leg up when your service flying is over, but don’t for a minute think that you’re going to be able to step right out of your military jet into the left seat of a civilian bizjet. It most likely ain't going to happen. The big issue I've found when it come to military guys is attitude - it will make or break you in the civilian world.

I have refrained from this idiotic thread, until now. I went to the 'esteemed' flight safety. I have a fighter background and my sim partner had a mil helo background (with less than 500 fixed wing hours). By the third sim our instructor was twiddling his thumbs wondering what he could do to us for the rest of the course. Neither of us are God's gift to avaition either. His exact quote was, "I love teaching you mil guys because you come prepared". Your colonel could have had the "Old dog, new trick syndrome". FMS/EFIS ins't hard to learn to use for someone who grew up in the computer age, but it just might be for someone who can't check email. Is that a good setup to lead this in the direction of why they shouldn't change the retirement age? Here we go................

 

[Lead Sled]

By the third sim our instructor was twiddling his thumbs wondering what he could do to us for the rest of the course. Neither of us are God's gift to avaition either. His exact quote was, "I love teaching you mil guys because you come prepared".

And I suppose that you think that only ex-military pilots are capable of that level of performance in the sim?

 

[semperfido]

c'mon guys--give it a rest.

 

[taloft]

A corporate chief pilot once remarked, "When you guys stop bitching, then I'll know it's time to start worrying."

I guess to a certain extent, it's part of the culture. Though I know military pilots who've told me the same thing can happen there. Shrug.

I wouldn't form my view of all civillian pilots from posts on an internet forum. Nor would it be wise to stereotype military pilots or pretty much members of any group based on the vocal anonymity of teh interweb.