Whats up with civi pilots?

[Fury220]

This thread just seems like it'll never end... could it break the "dorky pilot" series record? Stay tuned.

Do you have your copy of "2" yet? I've ordered mine, but it hasn't come in yet

I heard a couple of the new songs at their Tinker AFB show back in April. Hilarious.

 

[avbug]

Avbug..............wow. I always enjoy your view points and I seem recall a similar thread where you were going to waste someone if they so much as touched a child. Also recall passing along similar advice to you then. I'm happy, if not suprised that you are taking considering my point of view before you attempt to kick the other guys ass.

I know the thread to which you refer. It had become very juvinile, and it was occuring at the time Mark was killed. I didn't feel responses at that time, in that thread, appropriate due to circumstances which seemed to overshadow such issues.

However, seeing as you brought it up, my point of view then is no different than now. I do not support child abuse in any way, shape, or form, and uncategorically state for the record that I will do anything I deem necessary and appropriate to the circumstances to prevent it, without any limitations of any kind, and without hesitation or pause. That may be a few choice words, or it may be anything you can imagine, as the situation dictates. For that I make no apology. Then, or now.

That has nothing to do with this thread, however.

Family is almost sacred territory for most people. Even if I were to give Diesel a huge benefit of the doubt and assume that he was "joking," it's still a joke in bad taste. Horizontal mambo with a serviceman's wife/daughter while he's putting his life on the line overseas? Nothing but bad taste, my friend.

No arguement there. However, if he wants my ex-wife and/or mother-in-law, I'll gift wrap them and deliver.

Are you going to call Diesel on the carpet, too? Hmm...

No. I believe he works for netjets, so I feel bad for him already...and his comments speak for themselves. I'd say he set himself up for his own solo "carpet dance."

 

[hooker23]

Wow. Five pages to this thread. I never would have guessed. Didn't mean to poke the dragon. I take it this has been "discussed" before. I haven't flown civilian in 8 years and am wondering what peoples experiences have been transitioning from military to civilian flying and dealing with different attitudes that civlians have. The Army is great security in a strange world, not sure if I will get out any time soon. I'm institutionalized!! Thanks to those of you that wrote sane, intelligent answers to my first questions. I appreciate it. To those of you that took offense to my first post -- get a life and some thicker skin.

 

[Gorilla]

I'm going to try and summarize a bit, this coming from a guy with a mixed experience basket. I started flying (gliders) in 1976, and haven't stopped since.

Flying - It is intuitively obvious that there are different types of flying mission, and I see nothing wrong with presenting an opinion on them. Some have their origins in the military, some purely civilian pax and cargo, and others of a pseudo-military style, like the guys in old piston bombers who sling water on forest fires.

Civilian - You have the Duke's stories. Unbelievable stuff that would humble the cockiest fighter jock. And you also have scheduled air carrier flying. Unbelievably boring stuff, but with all too rare moments when it's all on the line, except you have no nylon letdown, and 100 to 350 people are depending upon you to save them.

Military - the mission runs the gamut from tame to "I'm gonna die." A dollar ride in a Tweet can encompass both of these! But by far, the most demanding and extreme flying mission has been the world of large force air-air and air-mud fighters. This has also for me been the most satisfying and excting. Nothing else comes close.

Guys contemplating the .mil mission, or exiting .mil and pursuing other flying, have a legitimate interest on what the mission will be.

Let me move on to the People, who are ultimately more important than the mission. On the first leg of a three-day, we usually find out what the other guy did in his prior life. And guess what? Nobody really gives a $h!t if I may use that word in this context. It's how well the dude flies NOW, not 10 years ago. Is the guy fun to fly with? Does he drink coffee and like BBQ? I'll buy a starbucks and a Dickeys. Does he fly R/C models, have a Harley? We find points of common interest and have a good time.

And pretty soon, no one remembers, or cares, what the other guy did 15 years ago.

Peace on Earth, my friends...

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I think the military vs civilian question is interesting. We have a pretty even mix of backgrounds at my company and we all play nice together. Its remarkable how we all end up pretty much the same no matter how we got there.

I do think that there might be some general, not-always-true, differences though.

The military guys love their procedures. Civilian guys more often could take them or leave them.

Military guys are sometimes shocked at how quickly they are thrown onto the line. "But aren't we going to learn xyz first?!" "What's the procedure for abc?!"

In extreme cases you will find a military guy who states that he will take no action unless there is a checklist for it. They about blow their minds when Flight Safety points out checklist problems where following the approved checklist will lead you down the wrong path so they show you what you really need to do instead. Heresy!!!

I know Diesel, he was just trying to yank some chains. My post is my honest opinion, but also figure it will yank a chain or two.

 

[Spooky 1]

I think the military vs civilian question is interesting. We have a pretty even mix of backgrounds at my company and we all play nice together. Its remarkable how we all end up pretty much the same no matter how we got there.

I do think that there might be some general, not-always-true, differences though.

The military guys love their procedures. Civilian guys more often could take them or leave them.

Military guys are sometimes shocked at how quickly they are thrown onto the line. "But aren't we going to learn xyz first?!" "What's the procedure for abc?!"

In extreme cases you will find a military guy who states that he will take no action unless there is a checklist for it. They about blow their minds when Flight Safety points out checklist problems where following the approved checklist will lead you down the wrong path so they show you what you really need to do instead. Heresy!!!

I know Diesel, he was just trying to yank some chains. My post is my honest opinion, but also figure it will yank a chain or two.

I know a few retired airline/military types that have gone over to NetJets recently and all of them have nothing but the finest compliments for the NetJets pilots group. Maybe I am reading something into your statements that is not there. Or, perhaps you might site an example of where the guys are coming up short in your opinion. I would agree that fighter pilot types use a different part of their brain than say a C5 pilot, but in either case I suspect that they are both extremely capable pilots and are certainly capable of following procedures or thinking outside the box when conditions warrant.

You have peaked my interest here. Excactly what does an instructor at FSI teach that is not a part of the normal/non-normal procedures? Examples please?

 

[Junkflyer]

I'd recommend making your 20 then flying civilian, that way you'd have a pension. The way things are now, you can work somewhere 20 or 30 years and they change the plan and you end up with $hit.
There are a lot of whiny pussies, but also a lot of good guys too.

 

[LJDRVR]

Holy Crud!

I was thinking: "How nice this thread hasn't degenerated into the whole whose-penis-is-bigger rant fest." Looks like my sentiments were premature.

Anybody on either side of the fence trying to make a case that their background is better simply doesn't understand that the two are apples and oranges. Totally different animals so to speak. What Fury 220 does moving studs and their gradesheets through the timeline bears almost no resembalance to my flying the line for 80 hours a month in an airliner. Could Fury learn to do my job? Sure, no sweat! Could I learn to do his? Yes, but it would take a lot more work to get me there, particularly in the formation department. Does this make Fury a better pilot than I? NOBODY KNOWS and NOBODY CARES! He is my brother Aviator and that's all that matters.

You self-indulgent losers enganged in self-agrandizing chest-thumping (And you know who you are...) need to get a life.

Deisel- You are a world class tool. How dare you make disparaging comments about the family memers of those citizens who serve our country, protecting your right to publicly demonstrate your brazen stupidity to the world. Making public comments about sexual relationships with the spouses and daughters of servicemembers, on a public bulletin board where everybody knows your employer and several know your identity? Your stupidy and taste know no bounds.

Watch your six turd.

 

[talondriver]

I think the military vs civilian question is interesting. We have a pretty even mix of backgrounds at my company and we all play nice together. Its remarkable how we all end up pretty much the same no matter how we got there.

I do think that there might be some general, not-always-true, differences though.

The military guys love their procedures. Civilian guys more often could take them or leave them.

Military guys are sometimes shocked at how quickly they are thrown onto the line. "But aren't we going to learn xyz first?!" "What's the procedure for abc?!"

In extreme cases you will find a military guy who states that he will take no action unless there is a checklist for it. They about blow their minds when Flight Safety points out checklist problems where following the approved checklist will lead you down the wrong path so they show you what you really need to do instead. Heresy!!!

I know Diesel, he was just trying to yank some chains. My post is my honest opinion, but also figure it will yank a chain or two.

Military guys love their procedures because that's how they were taught from day one. When you have a thousand things to do before you cross the FEBA (be it in a C-17 or A-10) it's nice to have a checklist/procedure to prevent missing something important...like mode 4 or master arm/ECM. Then, when you've just killed something or dropped a bunch of grunts out the back in-country and the adrenaline is high psi, it's nice to look at a checklist or have a procedure to remember to get the gear down at Al Udeid.

I too, would like to know more about FSI and their practices with bogus checklists.

 

[Diesel]

I was in sim with an ex military army guy who said that the memory items for the blackhawk were 20 steps long. Now that's a long memory item but i think if you're in a helicopter you have minimum time to get down. Are memory items or checklists more prevelant in helicopters?

One of the checklist items in the X has you not crossover electrical power from one engine to the other for a while down the checklist. Well if you do the checklist exactly right down the line you don't cross over power until like step 15 or so. By that time when you do crossover power and you still have any juice left in the battery and bus the tubes are either blank or when you crossover the spike actually melts the battery because of the overcharge.

So to stop that you do a memory non memory item. As soon as you lose the left engine you imediatly hit the crossover switch to parallel the power. During one sim i decided to do it just by the numbers because it's a sim and that's how we're supposed to do it in real life.

Well guess what i lost all the tubes and ended up flying the sim on stby gauges. Made a believer out of me right away but fsi won't change the checklist. So it's a memory non-memory item.

Make sense? It doesn't to me but i've tried it both ways.

Then reverse the question. Wouldn't fsi be able to fail you if you flip a switch without a checklist that's not a memory item? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. So they should just make it a memory item but they won't do that either.

So when you're doing your checkride you're dammed if you do dammed if you don't.