Whats up with civi pilots?

[BluDevAv8r]

The military is a lot more choosy and ruthless in it's selection and initial training than a civilian flight school whose criteria is "how much money ya got."

Civilian flying does not even approach 1/10th the complexity and demand of military flying. Been there, done both.

I would agree with your statement generally, but that doesn't remove the fact that there are questionable folks on both sides of the fence. Either way, this thread has drifted significantly...I think we can all agree that no matter what cockpit someone is in...the operator will eventually complain...about something! And I also think we can all agree that any kind of flying will kill you fast if you don't know what you are doing.

-Neal

 

[SIG600]

Civilian flying does not even approach 1/10th the complexity and demand of military flying. Been there, done both.

What I was trying to get across to Turbine head in his effort to "retrain" all the military guys.

 

[Draginass]

My own experience, as well as other military pilots that I've observed, is that transition to part 121 flying does take a little while. I'd say about 3-6 months by the time a pilot has been around the system enough to understand the nuances. Also, new pilots in the civilian system are not closely monitored and mentored like in a mililtary flying squadron. As a civlian, you're pretty much on your own. I think this is one way that marginally competent pilots can survive so long in a part 121 company. The varying degrees of standardization among long time part 121 captains can be confusing at first. Also, learining the company's part 121 ops specs takes a while, as does learning a new airplane at the same time. Civilian type-rating training is minimal (understandable due to cost constraints). Just enough to be safe and out-on-the-line-you-go.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

My own experience, as well as other military pilots that I've observed, is that transition to part 121 flying does take a little while. I'd say about 3-6 months by the time a pilot has been around the system enough to understand the nuances. Also, new pilots in the civilian system are not closely monitored and mentored like in a mililtary flying squadron. As a civlian, you're pretty much on your own. I think this is one way that marginally competent pilots can survive so long in a part 121 company. The varying degrees of standardization among long time part 121 captains can be confusing at first. Also, learining the company's part 121 ops specs takes a while, as does learning a new airplane at the same time. Civilian type-rating training is minimal (understandable due to cost constraints). Just enough to be safe and out-on-the-line-you-go.

Yes, training is fairly minimal and could always be beefed up but most of training in the 121 world is done "on the job" both during IOE and then later through mentorship by the FO's Captains. If it were a single pilot operation then I believe more training would occur. That said, training will always be to proficiency but also watched carefully by the beancounters to prevent excess cost. The military has to be able to do everything the 121 guys do (take off, cruise, land) and then their operational mission that the MWS also requires...and that is the major difference.

-Neal

 

[AdlerDriver]

............. civil and military are two different types of training and flying. ................ Military flying is just a different sets of flying skills from the civilian world.

Yip,
Correct me if I’m wrong but, I don’t think you meant to make such a general statement.

Some aspects of military training and flying are different but it’s not totally exclusive. Same comment to your second statement. It’s not a totally different set of flying skills. The basics are just that – basic.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Thanks Yip good post. Thats basically all I ever said..............

basically all you ever said???? If you take out the BS, inaccuracies and the stereotypes, maybe. Nice try.

 

[pilotyip]

Adler is correct in his understnading of my post there are similar skills as well different skills.

 

[jetjockey1231]

hooker23 - stay where you are because you are not qualified to do anything more than you are doing now. Pilotyip, if you mil pilots are so great, why are you only flying worn out da20s in michigan? if the mil is so good why do all of you become civ pilots? it's because you are no better than us civ pilots!!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

hooker23 - stay where you are because you are not qualified to do anything more than you are doing now. Pilotyip, if you mil pilots are so great, why are you only flying worn out da20s in michigan? if the mil is so good why do all of you become civ pilots? it's because you are no better than us civ pilots!!

Step away from the bottle......

 

[jetjockey1231]

bludevav8r - what - you did not like what i said?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

bludevav8r - what - you did not like what i said?

Nope, it is flamebait...and has no rational basis for being a decent argument. Also shows your insecurity as an aviator. Your argument (or lack thereof), aside from being immature, is just weak. Period. And this is coming from a pure civilian aviator...a weenie RJ pilot at that.

-Neal

 

[jetjockey1231]

bludevav8r - you are absolutely right! you are a weenie RJ pilot. before you tell someone that they are insecure, you must first look in the mirror. First of all I was not replying to a thread that you had written and second how many ex mil pilots have youy flown with or do you know? it seems that maybe you wanted to be in the mil but was not accepted. on the other hand, i never applied and had no intention of being a mil pilot. this is the true definition of a real civ pilot.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

If I got an immediate for a hard on demand 135 trip in a Lear or a Falcon, I certainly would prefer a 1500 hr civilian who had done all his flying as a civilian, rather than a 1500 hr "TopGun" who got the job because of his military background.

I need someone who I can tell where we’re going and have him run to the phone file a flight plan with Flight Service without having to break out with the god da_mn charts,,,so that we are ready to start engines in about 8 minutes after he picks up the phone.

I need someone who can quickly and correctly calculate T/O and landing weights and distances by glancing at a card almost instantly. In 135 on-demand freight, T/O and landing distances are computed to the foot.

When was the last time the NAVY or the USAF told you to land on a snow covered un-controlled 5000ft runway in a 26,000lbs jet with no reverse,,, with your only ground resource being "Fred" the fork-lift/ truck driver giving you braking action reports from the radio in his truck?

We don’t have 10,000 ft runways all the time or a tail hook to stop us. We don't have the "nylon let-down" either. If we are wrong in our decisions,,,we're fu_cked.

With a freight 135 trip in a jet I need someone who can set up and brief an NDB approach in about 1 minute (and know how to time it correctly and call out MDA's).

I need someone who can work antiquated radar unites. I need someone who can hand fly a jet at high altitudes (370 for the Falcon, 410 for the Lear) with-out an auto-pilot (this is where everyone fails), so we can get up to an altitude where we have a fighting chance of completing the trip without running out of gas (we can't "hook-up" with a tanker in the real world either).

And before you fighter guys chime in I guarantee you it will take plenty of time for you to hold altitude at 410 in a 20 series Learjet with-out an auto-pilot.

I need someone who knows how to pick their way thru a thunderstorm without going 150 miles out of the way to get around it.

I need someone that will keep his cool and won't say dumb sh1t on the radio when something quits working on the aircraft.

These are actual things I encountered while flying out of YIP with ex-military guys. Granted the FO's were new at the time, but they were not ready for the trips, in my opinion.

When I think of flying a single seat fighter with a tail hook, an ejection seat, in-flight refueling capability, and enough power to make the wing an after-thought, I think of relief.

 

[Fury220]

on the other hand, i never applied and had no intention of being a mil pilot. this is the true definition of a real civ pilot.

Haha -- good one, brother. Tell us another.

 

[Fury220]

If I got an immediate for a hard on demand 135 trip in a Lear or a Falcon, I certainly would prefer a 1500 hr civilian who had done all his flying as a civilian, rather than a 1500 hr "TopGun" who got the job because of his military background.

I need someone who I can tell where we’re going and have him run to the phone file a flight plan with Flight Service without having to break out with the god da_mn charts,,,so that we are ready to start engines in about 8 minutes after he picks up the phone.

I need someone who can quickly and correctly calculate T/O and landing weights and distances by glancing at a card almost instantly. In 135 on-demand freight, T/O and landing distances are computed to the foot.

When was the last time the NAVY or the USAF told you to land on a snow covered un-controlled 5000ft runway in a 26,000lbs jet with no reverse,,, with your only ground resource being "Fred" the fork-lift/ truck driver giving you braking action reports from the radio in his truck?

We don’t have 10,000 ft runways all the time or a tail hook to stop us. We don't have the "nylon let-down" either. If we are wrong in our decisions,,,we're fu_cked.

With a freight 135 trip in a jet I need someone who can set up and brief an NDB approach in about 1 minute (and know how to time it correctly and call out MDA's).

I need someone who can work antiquated radar unites. I need someone who can hand fly a jet at high altitudes (370 for the Falcon, 410 for the Lear) with-out an auto-pilot (this is where everyone fails), so we can get up to an altitude where we have a fighting chance of completing the trip without running out of gas (we can't "hook-up" with a tanker in the real world either).

And before you fighter guys chime in I guarantee you it will take plenty of time for you to hold altitude at 410 in a 20 series Learjet with-out an auto-pilot.

I need someone who knows how to pick their way thru a thunderstorm without going 150 miles out of the way to get around it.

I need someone that will keep his cool and won't say dumb sh1t on the radio when something quits working on the aircraft.

These are actual things I encountered while flying out of YIP with ex-military guys. Granted the FO's were new at the time, but they were not ready for the trips, in my opinion.

When I think of flying a single seat fighter with a tail hook, an ejection seat, in-flight refueling capability, and enough power to make the wing an after-thought, I think of relief.

After reading your post, I promptly got on my knees and kowtow-ed so hard I broke my nose. Thank you for your enlightened, fully-informed, hands-down-the-best-I-ever-read post. You've obviously read this entire thread and have, therefore, not opened any possibility of others thinking you to be a complete dumbsh!t. Thank you.

 

[Fury220]

I'm considering being the ultimate narcissist and quoting MYSELF in my signature line:

Nuthin but love both ways for you guys. Notice, I don't comment much about what you guys do. Why? Well, my knowledge base is small when it comes to your job. I respect the guys on the other side of the fence who do the same.

I think this thread will go down in FI history as being one of the "Top 10 of 2006." Laugh-a-thon all the way.

 

[guppygoshawk]

If I got an immediate for a hard on demand 135 trip in a Lear or a Falcon, I certainly would prefer a 1500 hr civilian who had done all his flying as a civilian, rather than a 1500 hr "TopGun" who got the job because of his military background.

I need someone who I can tell where we’re going and have him run to the phone file a flight plan with Flight Service without having to break out with the god da_mn charts,,,so that we are ready to start engines in about 8 minutes after he picks up the phone.

I need someone who can quickly and correctly calculate T/O and landing weights and distances by glancing at a card almost instantly. In 135 on-demand freight, T/O and landing distances are computed to the foot.

When was the last time the NAVY or the USAF told you to land on a snow covered un-controlled 5000ft runway in a 26,000lbs jet with no reverse,,, with your only ground resource being "Fred" the fork-lift/ truck driver giving you braking action reports from the radio in his truck?

We don’t have 10,000 ft runways all the time or a tail hook to stop us. We don't have the "nylon let-down" either. If we are wrong in our decisions,,,we're fu_cked.

With a freight 135 trip in a jet I need someone who can set up and brief an NDB approach in about 1 minute (and know how to time it correctly and call out MDA's).

I need someone who can work antiquated radar unites. I need someone who can hand fly a jet at high altitudes (370 for the Falcon, 410 for the Lear) with-out an auto-pilot (this is where everyone fails), so we can get up to an altitude where we have a fighting chance of completing the trip without running out of gas (we can't "hook-up" with a tanker in the real world either).

And before you fighter guys chime in I guarantee you it will take plenty of time for you to hold altitude at 410 in a 20 series Learjet with-out an auto-pilot.

I need someone who knows how to pick their way thru a thunderstorm without going 150 miles out of the way to get around it.

I need someone that will keep his cool and won't say dumb sh1t on the radio when something quits working on the aircraft.

These are actual things I encountered while flying out of YIP with ex-military guys. Granted the FO's were new at the time, but they were not ready for the trips, in my opinion.

When I think of flying a single seat fighter with a tail hook, an ejection seat, in-flight refueling capability, and enough power to make the wing an after-thought, I think of relief.

I need someone, I need someone..........
You know there are guys that do all that by themselves???
Seriously, thats all pretty laughable.
Hold altitude @ 410 w/o auto-pilot?? Yeah, pretty much every Naval Aviator has done that from the back of a T-45 without the help of the HUD. (Guess there's no auto in the -38 for the AF types, but I really don't know) A tailhook and Inflight Refueling as a relief?!?!? Buddy, I don't care how many "slippery, short and uncontrolled" airports you've landed at, you have no idea what the heck you're talking about. None. None at all.

 

[Fury220]

I need someone, I need someone..........
You know there are guys that do all that by themselves???
Seriously, thats all pretty laughable.
Hold altitude @ 410 w/o auto-pilot?? Yeah, pretty much every Naval Aviator has done that from the back of a T-45 without the help of the HUD. (Guess there's no auto in the -38 for the AF types, but I really don't know) A tailhook and Inflight Refueling as a relief?!?!? Buddy, I don't care how many "slippery, short and uncontrolled" airports you've landed at, you have no idea what the heck you're talking about. None. None at all.

No altitude hold on a -38 either. Oh, and I somehow manage to hold 410 while I talk on the radio, instruct, and navigate at the same time (while the SA black hole in the rear 'pit is literally trying to fly himself out of a canvas bag...literally). I never thought it to be that hard (sts) until WillowRun informed me otherwise. I'm sure he's doing it all at .9 IMN too.


Again...please...talking out of your stinky hole is funny, but still ill-advised.

Peace!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Again...please...talking out of your stinky hole is funny, but still ill-advised.

Peace!

Personal experience, thats all. I guess I flew with the "bad apples"

Edit 1: The ones that couldn't fly their thumbs up their asses.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

bludevav8r - you are absolutely right! you are a weenie RJ pilot.

It is called self-deprecating humor...look it up sometime.

before you tell someone that they are insecure, you must first look in the mirror. First of all I was not replying to a thread that you had written and second how many ex mil pilots have youy flown with or do you know? it seems that maybe you wanted to be in the mil but was not accepted. on the other hand, i never applied and had no intention of being a mil pilot. this is the true definition of a real civ pilot.

I have flown with many ex-military pilots...both as their FO and now as their Captain. You build this big wall between civilian and military (or wannabe military) pilots...why? I am not a "true" civilian pilot because I applied to be an F-16 pilot in the Guard (and by the way, had 600 hours of untrue civilian time and a CFI/MEI at the time)? Give me a break dude. You must be a joy to fly with...

-Weenie RJ Pilot (and if I can ever get hired to fly a Boeing I will be a weenie Boeing pilot...just for you)