Whats up with civi pilots?

[Purpledog]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpledog
By the third sim our instructor was twiddling his thumbs wondering what he could do to us for the rest of the course. Neither of us are God's gift to avaition either. His exact quote was, "I love teaching you mil guys because you come prepared".

And I suppose that you think that only ex-military pilots are capable of that level of performance in the sim?__________________
He said it, I didn't, Skippy. Quit trying to flame. Oh wait this is FI, nevermind. "That level of performance", ba ha ha. Like I said before, I'm no Yeager. All I did was get into the sim and take care of biz.

 

[floater_b2]

There are great pilots that came from the military side and great pilots that came from the civilian side. Just like there are not so stellar pilots that came from the military and there are not so stellar pilots that came from the civilian side. Can we lay off the whole us vs. them mentality? Having come from the military and now doing the civilian thing, the flying in the military is definitely different than that done in the civilian side. I don't think many would argue that. But that doesn't mean it is any better. It is just different. Some guys prefer doing one thing over another. Good for them. That's the great thing about aviation. There are so many different types of flying out there. Something for everyone...This industry is taking enough of a beating from non-pilots. Let's stop beating each other up as well!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Had a new FO (former F16) in a Lear 23 coming out of maintainace out of KISM, I called for flaps up and they retracted but the gauge still read flaps 8. I told the FO to tell ATC we needed to return to Kissimmee. He got on the mic with "emergency, emergency, emergency,,,I yanked his mic's RCA jack out of the COM panel,,,end of microphone privileges.

Had a new FO in a Falcon 20 (former A10), in a descent into KDRT, an engine flames out (not a rare occurrence). As I am reaching up to flip the ignitor switches to get the ol CF700 burnin again, the FO is telling ATC we have an emergency, again I yank his mics' RCA jack from the COM panel.

Military guys are good at what they are trained to do, but they don't realize that civilian flying is a business and that you have to choose your emergencies wisely. Just because there is a failure within the aircraft it does not necessarily constitute an emergency in the civilian world.

Plus, I would have rather not dealt with the BS paperwork for these NORMAL events.

 

[Lead Sled]

Had a new FO (former F16) in a Lear 23 coming out of maintainace out of KISM, I called for flaps up and they retracted but the gauge still read flaps 8. I told the FO to tell ATC we needed to return to Kissimmee. He got on the mic with "emergency, emergency, emergency,,,I yanked his mic's RCA jack out of the COM panel,,,end of microphone privileges.

Had a new FO in a Falcon 20 (former A10), in a descent into KDRT, an engine flames out (not a rare occurrence). As I am reaching up to flip the ignitor switches to get the ol CF700 burnin again, the FO is telling ATC we have an emergency, again I yank his mics' RCA jack from the COM panel.

Military guys are good at what they are trained to do, but they don't realize that civilian flying is a business and that you have to choose your emergencies wisely. Just because there is a failure within the aircraft it does not necessarily constitute an emergency in the civilian world.

Plus, I would have rather not dealt with the BS paperwork for these NORMAL events.

There are great pilots that came from the military side and great pilots that came from the civilian side. Just like there are not so stellar pilots that came from the military and there are not so stellar pilots that came from the civilian side. Can we lay off the whole us vs. them mentality? Having come from the military and now doing the civilian thing, the flying in the military is definitely different than that done in the civilian side. I don't think many would argue that. But that doesn't mean it is any better. It is just different. Some guys prefer doing one thing over another. Good for them. That's the great thing about aviation. There are so many different types of flying out there. Something for everyone...

Isn't this what I said?...

Over my career I've had the opportunity to fly with dozens of current and ex-military pilots from all branches of the service. I've seen some very sharp ex-military pilots and I've seen ones that didn't quite measure up - and in about the same proportion as the civilian pilots I've flown with. From what I have seen, it all boils down to this: There is generally no substitute for flight time and experience.

I'm sorry if Purpledog took offense that my experience of nearly 30 years of professional dealings doesn't support his perceptions or self image.

Skippy

 

[pilot141]

Conciliatory? I thought Diesel's comments were asinine and foolish,and said as much in not so many words. I thought the poster who started this thread was a bloody idiot, another whiner that can't or won't pull his weight, and certainly isn't needed in the work force where he can add to the problems instead of being part of a soloution. I thought most of the respondants here were certainly a lot more professional, and clearly most if not all of them are, or were, officers.

Don't like it, don't read it, mate.

I've never had a need or desire in my life to be conciliatory to you, or anybody else, and I won't start now. Thanks for playing.

For the record, the "conciliatory" comment was in regard to MY post, which you followed with another stir-the-pot post. I wasn't asking you to be conciliatory, and you've obviously got your Internet spurs on and all fired up so I'll be moving on.

Merry Christmas, especially to those folks (both military AND civilian) who find themselves away from home today. Fly safe!

 

[Kuma]

OK, now I have to get into this thread.

As for what WillowRunVortex said...well, yes and no. I have been in two services and by far, the Air Force is more concerned any time that something is not operating as designed. In the AF, "if you are looking at the yellow pages" (which means you are in the emergency part of the manual), then declare an emergency. When I was in the Marine Corps you could have high temps, low pressures or failed engines, but you didn't declare an emergency unless you thought that you needed assistance once on the ground (fire truck, ambulance, etc). If you had handled the inproperly functioning system properly, and expected to land uneventually, then you didn't declare the emergency at all. In the AF, they expect you to declare an emergency any time a caution light illuminates.

We all react like we've been trained. Some training may be too concervative, some may be too free, but none of it is "wrong". WillowRunVortex's company should have done a better job of training their pilots to the standards they want enforced. I think that removing the other pilot's ability to talk on the radio is short sighted and possibly an example of an in-experienced PIC. Instead of yanking his comm cord, couldn't you have told him to inform ATC that you were not declaring an emergency, but that you did need to return to Airport KXXX to land?

Kuma

 

[hooker23]

Some very eloquent and informative replies, thanks. Just to make sure, I went back and checked my original post. Its says nothing about flying abilities of either military or civilian. I started out in this world flying civilian and have met some outstanding pilots on the civilian side. I look forward to flying with them in the future. There are also great aviators in the Army and other uniformed services. There are also the duds, both civilian and military. To FURTHER clarify my original post: I am looking at getting out of the military and reading the various threads on FI scared me. It sounds like civilian aviation is about to implode. How can any company possibly advance with so much gloom and doom? So thats what I was asking. Do most pilots complain about their civilian jobs? If so, then I can take 99% of FI threads with a grain of salt. Thanks to those of you out there keeping posts positive.

To those civilian pilots who like ragging on military pilots who are new to the civilian side: we (military pilots) could do the same to you and more if you came over to the military side, but most of us don't when we get new pilots in. Its called being professional. I recently progressed an Embry Riddle grad in the CH47D, in a combat zone mind you. This was his first operational duty assignment. There was a ton he did wrong but flaming him doesn't help in the cockpit. We took a new guy and brought him up to our standards. I would expect the same from a civilian IP when I enter that world.

 

[pilotyip]

Vortex does not reflect the entire YIP on-demand community, engine failures are not normal events. When it happens there is logbook write up and an engine performance check signed off by maintenance before that airplane flies again. In the cases he describes, the F/O's should not have declared an emergency without the CA's approval. However having declared emergencies in my civilian life, I have never had to do anything but file an irregularity report with my company. But I have found that because of the assumed paperwork Vortex mentions, that many civilian background pilots are hesitate to declare an emergency. To clarify when an emergency should be declared we have SOP that covers when an emergency should be declared. We train it in the sim and enforce in line operations. Should a pilot elect not to declare under the situations defined in the SOP that he would be filling a different type of irregularity report and explaining to the CP why? If you have a problem, you let ATC know so they can be prepared to help if necessary, plus the emergency gives you relief from the regs. It is good thing to declare early when that engine flames out at 350 because if you didn’t and you are descending a for a relight and ATC says stop your descent at FL320 for traffic at 310, whoops now you better declare. The mighty DA-20 will not maintain 320 on a single engine you need help.

 

[Say Again Over]

Getting back to the thread, I have spent many hours flying, with both civilian and previous military types, learn a thing or two from both, but the one thing they all have in common is complaining, no matter how much they're making, whatever.

 

[Laxman]

All I have to say is that Mil flying and Civ flying are very different. Its an apples and oranges kinda argument. Whoever it was talking about all the problems mil pilots have converting to civ, multi 1000 hr civ pilots going through SUPT in the AF have their fair share of problems too. A guy in my class had 2000 hrs, w/ 800 IFR and almost failed out 3 times in phase two. Good instrument pilot, just not used to banking her up and pulling. He did almost killed me in the pattern when we were flying around solo. Then he almost side swiped another jet. That wasnt cool. In the end, he finally figured out why not to fly through an active MOA VFR