Whats up with civi pilots?

[vetrider]

High tension powerlines don't mix well with a 4-ship escorting a strike package at 600 knots either. I'll grant you ag is a different world. I shouldn't have painted with so broad a brush.

I'll rephrase it - Civilian flying for a scheduled air carrier is a joke.

Added: Sorry guys I woke up today with a numbed brain at the thought of once again packing my crap to do a trip I've done hundreds of times - "Is the FMC programmed!!?? Uh Oh, we'd better check all the waypoints! Oh No, it's a BLEEDS OFF TAKEOFF today!!! Run the BLEEDS OFF CHECKLIST 4 times please, we need to GET IT RIGHT!"

In my dreams, I'm flying upside down again, packing heat and pulling G's. I miss it, that's all.

The Added paragraph is funnier than hell, thanks for the laugh. Funny and so true.

 

[sandman2122]

Hey "AD"

I think I'll learn how to surf!

With HER!!!!

 

[SIG600]

To expand on what Kuma said on how different services run business...

There was a Carrier Qual det running out of Homestead when I was in training, and when we packed up shop, the Det OIC was told by the AF we were never allowed back. Flying a bingo profile from the ship is just standard operating procedure for the Navy... no big deal... but does require declaring an emergency because you're almost out of gas. Well the "E" word sets an Air Force base to General Quarters and after a few students bingo'ing from the ship back to the beach they were about to pull their hair out. Just different ways of running shop.

Fury, ya I've got their new CD... it's histerical, especially "going in for guns."

 

[aeronautic1]

How many pilots in the military with 30+ years under their belt (and on their shoulder boards) still strap on a jet 10-15 (or more/PT135) days per month?

I know pilots who are in their 70's flying Gulfstreams. And doing a fine job of it.

I wonder if there is a trucker's forum and if they complain about their jobs like some pilots do. Prostitutes? Bus drivers? School Teachers?

Hmmm

 

[VNugget]

A dollar ride in a Tweet

Heyyy, I gotta dollar, when's my ride?

 

[AdlerDriver]

Nice Stereotype

Over my career I've had the opportunity to fly with dozens of current and ex-military pilots from all branches of the service. I've seen some very sharp ex-military pilots and I've seen ones that didn't quite measure up - and in about the same proportion as the civilian pilots I've flown with. From what I have seen, it all boils down to this: There is generally no substitute for flight time and experience. I'll be the first to admit that flight time isn't everything (I've flown with some high-time bozos. and some low-time guys that flew a good airplane), but you guys know what I'm saying.

Several years ago, I was an instructor at a 141 flight school that did a lot of "GI Bill" training for military and ex-military pilots. I worked with many individuals whose military experience that ran the whole gamut - fighter, bomber, and transport. The transport guys did the best. They were the ones whose experience most closely paralleled what one would encounter in the "real world" of civilian flying. In most cases, it was very easy to transition these people in the allotted time and they, as a group, did very well on the check rides that followed.

The fighter pilots were an entirely different story. The attributes that make a good fighter pilot do not necessarily make the transition into the civilian world. While most of the transport guys were ready well within the allotted time, almost all of the fighter types required the entire program time allotment and even then, there were a few who were pretty "rough". They were good fighter pilots – they could "mix it up" with the best of them. Unfortunately, these are skills rarely required in today's world of airline and corporate flying. The problem was they were good and they knew it and it was hard to tell them anything - they already knew it all.

Three or four years ago I had the opportunity to fly with a recently retired F-15 fighter pilot. The colonel and I flew an Astra SPX all over the country - a couple of hundred hours worth. On paper, his credentials were impressive - nearly 6,000 hours of jet fighter time and all that goes with it. In reality, his 6,000 hours of military time provided him with an equivalent of perhaps 2,000 hours of civilian experience. Basic things that we would take for granted with a civilian pilot with 6,000 hours were just not there. Skills like the use of weather radar, FMS operation, etc. and even basic instrument approaches had not been honed because they were of little practical use in the military environment. In this particular pilot's case, by his own admission, he had flown less than 5 actual ILS approaches to minimums during his entire career. (We did more that that the first month we flew together.) He was also not comfortable in serious IFR weather or operating at the various high density airports that we frequented. He felt as out of place in "our" element as I would have felt in his. He was forced to play some serious "catch up ball" but he eventually caught on; just as many of us would also be able to catch on if given the opportunity to fly in the military.

You military guys definitely have a leg up when your service flying is over, but don’t for a minute think that you’re going to be able to step right out of your military jet into the left seat of a civilian bizjet. It most likely ain't going to happen. The big issue I've found when it come to military guys is attitude - it will make or break you in the civilian world.

Merry Christmas

'Sled

Sled,
Your post is so obviously based on your own uninformed stereotypes it’s almost comical. I’m sure you’ve had the opportunity to work with some military pilots who were “tools”. I don’t doubt some had flown fighters.
In my experience, people who paint with the broad brush you are using, usually have very little first hand knowledge of what flying fighters really involves.

………….. The attributes that make a good fighter pilot do not necessarily make the transition into the civilian world.

Please enlighten us, in your expert opinion, what are these attributes? The ones you think you learned from “Top Gun” or the ones you and the rest of the part 141 instructors decided amongst yourselves? You obviously don’t have a clue what attributes make a good fighter pilot.

………. They were good fighter pilots – they could "mix it up" with the best of them. Unfortunately, these are skills rarely required in today's world of airline and corporate flying.

How do you know they were good fighter pilots? Did you see them flying fighters? Did you personally experience them “mixing it up with the best of them”? Obviously not. So you don’t have any idea what kind of fighter pilots they were. And, once again, those elusive skills that one must possess to succeed in airline and corporate flying are totally unrelated to the skills of a fighter pilot according to you. Give me a break.

I spent 12 years in the F-15 and 3.5 years in the F-15 schoolhouse training new and previously qualified F-15 pilots. I saw an occasional tool who might fit your stereotype. Most of the hundreds of pilots I saw going through training did not. Here’s the reality, Sled. Some of the attributes that make a great fighter pilot are: an effective leader and follower, a real team player, an excellent stick and rudder pilot (including precision instrument flying), an aircraft systems expert, a quick thinking multi-tasker, an effective communicator and a disciplined professional who is ready for every mission. Sounds like a lot of the good civilian pilots I know too. Obviously, if a pilot like this was to show up and attempt to fly as part of a crew on an airliner or corporate jet, he would fail miserably, right?

It sounds to me that you might be surprised to learn that the fundamentals of good CRM are a daily part of a good fighter pilot’s training. They rarely work alone and are constantly part of a team. They must effectively utilize the assets at their disposal, inquire and advocate when necessary, provide inputs to aid the leader in choosing a course of action or use those inputs to make that decision if they’re leading. They delegate tasks both during mission planning as well as during the mission itself. You name a tenant of CRM and I’ll give you an example of a fighter pilot using it. You don’t have to be sitting 2 feet away from your crew to use CRM. The unique thing is, unlike an airline Captain, fighter pilots routinely switch back and forth between the roles of leader and subordinate. I acted as mission commander of a Red Flag mission one day and was a wingman the next. This might even happen in a heartbeat during a mission. A #3 in a 4-ship is kind of a deputy flight-lead. If the 4-ship lead is lost or has a mechanical issue, leadership responsibilities automatically shift to #3.

You attempt to use a few isolated cases and draw some fairly significant conclusions. It sounds to me like the 6000 hour Colonel you flew around with was not typical. He sounds like some of the older pilots I’ve met (both military and civilian) who are not products of the computer age and spent most of their years on round dial jets. They’re just old dogs and new tricks like the FMC are not going to be easy for them. As far as the weather radar…. Give me a break. Do you realize the F-15 has one of the most complex and capable radars available? Do you really think pushing “on”; adjusting antenna tilt, maybe selecting one or two other operating modes and a range is going to be that difficult? If that was giving him trouble, he probably wasn’t a very good F-15 pilot. Just as a contrast for you, I spent 5 years stationed in Germany and flew hundreds of approaches to mins throughout Europe. I developed outstanding instrument skills as did every other pilot I was stationed with. Your 6000 hour wonder is not the norm. Any disciplined fighter pilot who spent a disproportionate time flying from bases blessed with lots of VFR weather found other ways to ensure their instrument skills remain honed. Extra time in the sim, requesting an approach when it’s VFR or using a portion of an occasional single ship sortie to practice approaches. Constantly challenging oneself and ensuring you’re prepared are the marks of a professional whether they’re flying fighters or not. My first experience with an FMC took maybe a couple of hours in the trainer to get comfortable with. Most fighter pilots I know my age and younger have similar stories. Please don’t try to make using an FMC out to be more complex than it really is. Once again, if this guy was having trouble, I think you were dealing with an “old dog”.
One of the few things I agree with you about is attitude. The guys with bad ones who think they can fly an airliner like a fighter and it won’t have its share of challenges give the rest of us a bad name. You’ll always find a few unprofessional pilots from any background. I would never have considered myself ready to jump in the “left seat of a bizjet” by virtue of my military experience. Most of the fighter pilots I know wouldn’t either.

Happy New Year

 

[Say Again Over]

AdlerDriver

Thanks for saying that! :beer:

 

[Caveman]

"I spent 5 years stationed in Germany and flew hundreds of approaches to mins throughout Europe."

Hundreds? To mins?

 

[Spooky 1]

"I spent 5 years stationed in Germany and flew hundreds of approaches to mins throughout Europe."

Hundreds? To mins?

Very possible in some parts of Germany and other parts of Europe as well.

 

[AdlerDriver]

"I spent 5 years stationed in Germany and flew hundreds of approaches to mins throughout Europe."

Hundreds? To mins?

Yeah, I'd say that's accurate. 15-ish sorties per month. Typical German winter weather from Nov-Mar is 300/1 and clear above 5000. Say half the sorties were in bad weather, thats over 30 per winter times 5 years and not counting bad weather the rest of the year. I'm not sure why that's so hard to believe.BTW, our mins were ceiling/vis. Maybe a little different from what you're used to. 300-1 off station and 200-1/2 at home base.