Virgin America Revenue...

[NEDude]

Further, I don't really fault guys for going to VA, for example. It's a free country and you can do what you want. But if you make that decision, at least own up to the effect airlines VA, GoJets, JetBlue, etc., have had on the industry.

To your third point, I doubt you guys are getting a raise unless there is a mass exodus of pilots and the company has no other choice. They can't even afford to pay you what you're getting paid now. I don't care if you get a union or not, in my opinion if anything you guys need to suck it up and take a pay cut so that your low fares can actually cover your costs. You can't undercut in the airline biz unless your wages (an airline's largest controllable costs) help with the undercutting! Your wages aren't low enough yet!

GoJets was endorsed by ALPA in jets for jobs - you know, where ALPA gives up scope so mainline can outsource good paying jobs to the poverty level wage paying regionals. So anyone who goes to GoJets should have the full blessing of any and all ALPA pilots.

The board of directors has already voted to approve a raise in 2012, just like they did last year. No union needed (yet).

 

[NEDude]

Two brilliant points. However, the phrase "Casting pearls before swine" comes to mind.

This from the same man who badmouths his own union, shows unparalleled literary skill by over use of the word "doosh", and has been incorrectly predicting for over three years now that Virgin America: is facing imminent shutdown, will never take delivery of new airplanes, will never give raises to the pilots without a union, and the pilots will be constantly shunned and denied the jumpseat.

Frankly, given your track record fubi, I hope for nothing but more doom and gloom predictions from you.

 

[NEDude]

Talk about short sighted - you fail to recognize any of the other factors involved. Of course that would involve rational thought that your third grade brain cannot handle.

ALPA has at best turned a blind eye to the outsourcing of entry level mainline jobs to the regionals - a fact you cannot recognize.

ALPA has at best accepted the poverty level wages paid at the regionals that have put downward pressure on wages - a fact you cannot recognize.

Tell me, why can't your brain wrap itself around the cause and effect of the outsourcing? Do you not see that by giving up scope and accepting of poverty level wages at the regionals it creates an environment that makes it advantageous for management to outsource mainline flying? Have you not been seeing that over the past decade?! Can you not recognize the fact that every time ALPA signs off on the releasing of more scope, it creates less opportunity for pilots to move onto a mainline carrier and forces more pilots to live at poverty level wages? Can you not see that all of this has created a situation where poverty level wage paying ALPA carriers are now playing a part in driving ALPA legacy carriers out of business (refer to the case of Mesa's Hawaii operation and how it affected Aloha airlines)? Can you not see how that puts extreme downward pressure on wages and creates an environment in which regional pilots, pilots at companies that were driven out of business, or pilots that were furloughed because their jobs were outsourced to regionals, are now looking for other work? Is that too much to wrap your brain around?

These things are happening right in front of you and you fail to acknowledge any of them. You are so stuck on an argument that one airline's management used several years ago (an argument that did not even involve Virgin America) to blame all the ills of the industry on Virgin America pilots. It takes of lot of ignorant nerve to accuse me of being short sighted when you fail to see what has been happening right in front of your eyes.

Yes, I know, you are going to come back and call me some variation of 'doosh' and accuse me of drinking more red kool-aid. How original.

Still waiting for some answers fubi...

 

[NEDude]

NEdude,

You are very emotional in your arguments. A few points. TWA/AA merger amounted to an 8:1 integration or 52% staple. Allegheny/Mohawk which is referenced in McKaskill/Bond suggests a 50% staple. This 2% difference was also during a Ch.11 filing trending to CH.7. TWA was going to liquidate and they still received a 52% staple. Please tell me what you would have expected.
Regionals.
A 50 seater loses money, period. A Boyd research report of the AA filling states American will retire all Embraer ERJ 135/140/145, and some Bombardier CRJ 700 and ATR-72 by 2016 and begin retiring CRJ's in 2016. They are not cost effective and most routes may be flown with 319's. Unprofitable routes will simply be dropped. ERJ's and CRJ's are economically obsolete. This holds true for all SLP contracts. ALPA has nothing to do with the economics despite the opinion you state.

I understand you are upset about regional pay, I understand you are upset about VX pay and industry views of your benefits package but I must say AGAIN regional pilots are not worth the pay because the aircraft do not produce the revenue.
Also, this is not any unions fault. ALPA is not at fault for this. These are facts. This is not an opinion.

UAL has a stronger grasp on VX financials so I defer commentary.

I totally agree with you on the economics of the 50-70 seat RJs, they are going away. But there is increased push from managements to allow even larger 90-100 seat aircraft to be flown by regionals. They will follow the same pattern they always have - threaten bankruptcy, throw a small token bone to their captains and then wait for the union to cave. The union will then follow its pattern and vote along the lines of seniority (slightly more captains than FOs), the scope will be given away, and larger airplanes will be flown by pilots making poverty level wages. This will be followed by more junior pilots being furloughed, captains being downgraded and more ALPA chest thumping about "raising the bar".

Sorry, but the pattern has played out too much over the last decade plus to make me believe any other result.

As for the TWA acquisition, you have just proved my point - ALPA is virtually powerless to provide you anything above and beyond what the law currently provides. However fubi and the other ALPA cheerleaders try to convince you are screwed in an acquisition if you do not have ALPA.

 

[ualdriver]

I totally agree with you on the economics of the 50-70 seat RJs, they are going away. But there is increased push from managements to allow even larger 90-100 seat aircraft to be flown by regionals. They will follow the same pattern they always have - threaten bankruptcy, throw a small token bone to their captains and then wait for the union to cave. The union will then follow its pattern and vote along the lines of seniority (slightly more captains than FOs), the scope will be given away, and larger airplanes will be flown by pilots making poverty level wages. This will be followed by more junior pilots being furloughed, captains being downgraded and more ALPA chest thumping about "raising the bar".

Sorry, but the pattern has played out too much over the last decade plus to make me believe any other result.

As for the TWA acquisition, you have just proved my point - ALPA is virtually powerless to provide you anything above and beyond what the law currently provides. However fubi and the other ALPA cheerleaders try to convince you are screwed in an acquisition if you do not have ALPA.

You are one bitter dude, and it clouds your logic.

Your first paragraph assumes that major airline pilots haven't learned from history. I can assure you that at UAL you are absolutely, positively WRONG, and my buds at other carriers seem to say the right things as well concerning scope. But they can speak for themselves. Unless every major airline ends up in bankruptcy again and gets scope relief forced down their throats under the gavel of a bankruptcy judge, I doubt you will see any scope relief anytime soon. Well, maybe at AMR, but obviously the AMR pilots have lost a lot of control of their future.

Seriously, you need to step away from the keyboard and stop posting a lot of crazy, emotional half-truths like the post above that refer to "patterns" and unions caving where I don't even know what you're talking about. I witnessed the last 10 years and the effects of bankruptcy first hand and you're confusing the crap out of me.

 

[Lake Alice]

I totally agree with you on the economics of the 50-70 seat RJs, they are going away. But there is increased push from managements to allow even larger 90-100 seat aircraft to be flown by regionals. They will follow the same pattern they always have - threaten bankruptcy, throw a small token bone to their captains and then wait for the union to cave. The union will then follow its pattern and vote along the lines of seniority (slightly more captains than FOs), the scope will be given away, and larger airplanes will be flown by pilots making poverty level wages. This will be followed by more junior pilots being furloughed, captains being downgraded and more ALPA chest thumping about "raising the bar".

Sorry, but the pattern has played out too much over the last decade plus to make me believe any other result.

As for the TWA acquisition, you have just proved my point - ALPA is virtually powerless to provide you anything above and beyond what the law currently provides. However fubi and the other ALPA cheerleaders try to convince you are screwed in an acquisition if you do not have ALPA.

I haven't proven your point at all. ALPA negotiated the TWA integration prior to the M/B provisions. It would have been substantially worse under the system Jetblue or VA operate. Keep in mind the M/B provision stipulates a fair integration and suggests a 50% staple. Your actual integration will either based on an arbitrator who IS NOT bound by previous awards or if you don't enter arbitration then the president of your company will negotiate your integration for you. Also current ALPA MEC/LEC's are now being voted in by seniority block therefore each elected representative will vote based on their block and not the top heavy seniority system you suggest. Lastly these poverty wages you speak of are for first year pilots. Again, how much are you worth when you have 500-1000TT. Take the Buffalo accident as an example. Their experience is exactly why more experienced pilots deserve higher pay i.e., Hudson River.

Lastly, this board has been very patient with your post. I understand this is also a public forum but you have failed to provide a single economic fact to support any argument you have had regarding regionals, majors or VX's situation or unions.

For the record I don't care for ALPA, Teamsters or independents but for this industry a union is a necessary evil.

 

[Fubijaakr]

NEDude is simply someone who got furloughed and blames ALPA for it. He's clinging for dear life trying to justify working for wages/benefits that undercut the rest of the industry.

Quite frankly, places like VX, AGT and B6 are populated with bitter, anti-Union guys who can't understand that they got furloughed by management, not ALPA.

That's the primary reason B6 guys can't get a successful organizing drive done...too much misplaced anger.

 

[Lake Alice]

NEDude is simply someone who got furloughed and blames ALPA for it. He's clinging for dear life trying to justify working for wages/benefits that undercut the rest of the industry.

Quite frankly, places like VX, AGT and B6 are populated with bitter, anti-Union guys who can't understand that they got furloughed by management, not ALPA.

That's the primary reason B6 guys can't get a successful organizing drive done...too much misplaced anger.

So true. Usairs MEC, for example, was told by ALPA that an expectation of date of hire was unreasonable. Nicolau during mediation expressed his negative opinion of date of hire. Nicolau, during arbitration, refused to award date of hire. How was this ALPA's fault. B6 has hundreds of Usair pilots many of which voted yes for ALPA but many voted no.
ALPA has not been perfect but ALPA is not responsible for your furlough. Economics are responsible for your furlough.

 

[Fubijaakr]

ALPA has not been perfect but ALPA is not responsible for your furlough. Economics are responsible for your furlough.

Amen. Sing it, Sister. However, you'll never get guys like 'Dude to admit it. Its easier to sling mud at ALPA.

 

[Lake Alice]

NEdude it simply too emotional.

B6 is no better than a regional. The pay was bad, the benefits were bad, the retirement was bad, the schedules were bad. Much of this was changed by the threat of a union vote and while B6 is still behind in almost every category it's not the bane of the industry and most of that is due to union support.