Virgin America Revenue...

[Busdriver320]

hyflyin,

I read that thread as well and agree it doesn't jive with the direct comment to me from a flight ops manager. Time will tell which one of them is right, and I am guessing DC is closer to the truth.

Ralph,

Mgmt is going to say whatever they have to to keep stringing us along as long as possible. The latest, as I'm sure you've heard, is that DC has been heard to state he "wants our pilots to be the best paid in the industry". GMAFB!

I'm done being strung along. The whole notion that we aren't making money is pure BS with a giant load of whipped-cream on top. No investor(s) anywhere, ever, in the history of the world would have eaten these losses for so long. The "investors" or "owners" are making a fine return on their money, period. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool who buys into the you're-lucky-to-have-a-job nonsense and DC, SRB, and the hedge fund owners just love how stupid they are.

I could care less if it takes 4-5 years to obtain a contract. Since the last sections negotiated are always the compensation ones, that part of our demands will just simply just have to increase for each week/month/year we work for less than our peers so that the end result is the same as the measley $1-2 they're "voluntarily" handing out every year. 9% as BW said in the infamous letter? Try about 2% as was mathmatically posted on our private forum by someone. Yet another instance of deception.

And 'VAPA" isn't the only way to go as some have posted. There ARE other options besides ALPA or IBT. I heard recently that one of our Capts was told by a TWU organizer who was working with the F/A's that TWU wanted us and B6 pilots as they don't currently have any pilot groups in their fold. Maybe that's worth looking into? I mean, they DO represent people in the transportation industry, right?

On another topic, I just love the self-congratulating they give themselves on the hiring they do too. These are the folks that hired some tool that showed up in a tee shirt and sweats to jumpseat, and another who glued some plastic kid's wings on an an ECAM, and another who left one of his own who was trying to go home at the gate and pushed 8 minutes early even though the jacka$$ knew the guy was coming, and another who threatened to divert if he didn't get a 1st class meal served to him, and how many other "golden eagle awards" you've heard about? And how many people here have had rec's either turned down or never even given a chance to begin with?...plenty. I'll bet you could find at least 4 out of 10 guys that would tell you they couldn't get a really good person in the door.

 

[NEDude]

Ralph,

Mgmt is going to say whatever they have to to keep stringing us along as long as possible. The latest, as I'm sure you've heard, is that DC has been heard to state he "wants our pilots to be the best paid in the industry". GMAFB!

I'm done being strung along. The whole notion that we aren't making money is pure BS with a giant load of whipped-cream on top. No investor(s) anywhere, ever, in the history of the world would have eaten these losses for so long. The "investors" or "owners" are making a fine return on their money, period. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool who buys into the you're-lucky-to-have-a-job nonsense and DC, SRB, and the hedge fund owners just love how stupid they are.

I could care less if it takes 4-5 years to obtain a contract. Since the last sections negotiated are always the compensation ones, that part of our demands will just simply just have to increase for each week/month/year we work for less than our peers so that the end result is the same as the measley $1-2 they're "voluntarily" handing out every year. 9% as BW said in the infamous letter? Try about 2% as was mathmatically posted on our private forum by someone. Yet another instance of deception.

And 'VAPA" isn't the only way to go as some have posted. There ARE other options besides ALPA or IBT. I heard recently that one of our Capts was told by a TWU organizer who was working with the F/A's that TWU wanted us and B6 pilots as they don't currently have any pilot groups in their fold. Maybe that's worth looking into? I mean, they DO represent people in the transportation industry, right?

On another topic, I just love the self-congratulating they give themselves on the hiring they do too. These are the folks that hired some tool that showed up in a tee shirt and sweats to jumpseat, and another who glued some plastic kid's wings on an an ECAM, and another who left one of his own who was trying to go home at the gate and pushed 8 minutes early even though the jacka$$ knew the guy was coming, and another who threatened to divert if he didn't get a 1st class meal served to him, and how many other "golden eagle awards" you've heard about? And how many people here have had rec's either turned down or never even given a chance to begin with?...plenty. I'll bet you could find at least 4 out of 10 guys that would tell you they couldn't get a really good person in the door.

On the point of your last paragraph, those people exist at EVERY company. The 10% rule hold just as true at VX as it does at other airlines. I am guessing VX is a little on the smaller side of 10%, perhaps 8-9% but that is just me. The really bad airlines probably are around 12-13%. That is my totally unscientific and very un-objective observation.

Regarding a union - the biggest issue we as a group will face what kind of resources we will have access to should we decide to unionize. ALPA and IBT have the most resources and experience in pilot negotiations. I have been both and don't suck down the kool aid of either (if that isn't obvious enough at this point), but I have had bad and good experiences with both. IMHO it depends on how active the local leadership is. TWU may have the resources, but would we want to be the guinea pig in their attempts to land pilot groups? If we went VAPA would we have the resources and expertise with only 500+ pilots to be an effective union?

At this point I remain neutral to slightly against a union campaign, but perhaps it is because I have not been here long enough. I do think the effects of our lower pay are beginning to manifest itself in the pilots we are starting to recruit and I hope that message is getting through to upper management. I do believe the message has made it to middle management but often times there is a huge gap between middle and upper management.

Should the pilot group decide to pursue unionization, I will support it. But I do think we should have realistic expectations of what to expect in the process. Sure it may take only two years to negotiate a contract, but it may also take 5+ years, and everyone involved needs to be aware of that possibility.

Lastly, I firmly believe the decision to unionize lies strictly with our pilot group, not others and especially not the 'haters' who falsely spread fear tactics of denied jumpseats.

 

[aircombat]

I'm pretty sure you don't know how scope works.

The union scopes out work, not the company.

They do that to limit what the company can outsource.

For example, Delta can't sell a seat on a plane with a Delta flight number operated by another airline unless the pilots sign off on it. Delta pilots are ALPA. DAPLA, unfortunately, did sign away some of their scope. What exists keeps current Delta pilot jobs more secure than they would be without their scope clause.

Maybe my wording isn't perfect but you should understand what I am saying. Only companies with unions outsource their work to regionals. It's simple why. Management has more negotiating leverage with the whipsaw. I realize that a union uses scope to limit what the company can outsource. My point is that it doesn't work proven only by history.

Non union management doesn't outsource their pilots jobs because that would definitely piss off a pilot group enough to vote in a union. I'm still waiting for examples proving me wrong.

 

[NEDude]

Maybe my wording isn't perfect but you should understand what I am saying. Only companies with unions outsource their work to regionals. It's simple why. Management has more negotiating leverage with the whipsaw. I realize that a union uses scope to limit what the company can outsource. My point is that it doesn't work proven only by history.

Non union management doesn't outsource their pilots jobs because that would definitely piss off a pilot group enough to vote in a union. I'm still waiting for examples proving me wrong.

Funny thing is most of the fear mongering about not having a union is coming from people who have never been non-union. I have been ALPA, I have been Teamsters, and I have been non-union. Here are some facts: I have never taken a pay cut at a non-union carrier, I HAVE taken a pay cut at an ALPA carrier; I have been furloughed three times - once from an ALPA carrier, once from a Teamsters carrier and once from a non-union company. In my experience a union was no better at protecting my job than a non-union carrier, and worse at protecting my pay. In the two non-union carriers I have worked for the threat of a union was in many cases more effective at raising pay or protecting the pilots than an actual union. The reality is that there is very little difference in working for a union carrier vs. a non-union carrier.


There certainly may be a point where a union is needed. That point came at one point during my tenure at the first non-union carrier I worked for, which is why I was part of the organizing committee. But we as a group must decide when that point in time comes for us based on pay, work rules and benefits, not because we want the approval of other pilot on internet message boards.

 

[aircombat]

agreed, I wish that ALPA works but the simple fact is they are losing the war. They mock non union pilots saying they are so vulnerable to losing their jobs to outsourcing when the only pilots furloughed due to outsourcing have been ALPA members. When you ask them why, all you get is name calling and intimidation tactics.

 

[hyflyin]

Ralph,



On another topic, I just love the self-congratulating they give themselves on the hiring they do too. These are the folks that hired some tool that showed up in a tee shirt and sweats to jumpseat, and another who glued some plastic kid's wings on an an ECAM, and another who left one of his own who was trying to go home at the gate and pushed 8 minutes early even though the jacka$$ knew the guy was coming, and another who threatened to divert if he didn't get a 1st class meal served to him, and how many other "golden eagle awards" you've heard about? And how many people here have had rec's either turned down or never even given a chance to begin with?...plenty. I'll bet you could find at least 4 out of 10 guys that would tell you they couldn't get a really good person in the door.

Seriously Bus, who cares about the sweats or wings. We used to leave porn hidden all over the plane in the 90's, now, gluing wings on the dash. As for the sweats, well SRB showed dressed in drag to a launch. How about DCs attire when flying? I bet you haven't blasted him. What exactly do you expect from such a relaxed atmosphere? I don't agree with the sweats, nor would I do it, but had said individual showed dressed in a skirt and heels we would be celebrating it. How you show up to jumpseat certainly doesn't determine your professionalism when behind the cockpit door.

Now leaving one of your own or another pilot at the gate, different story. To the best of my recollection he was talked to and it shouldn't happen again. How about we let it go and keep our company business on our company site?

Just a thought...

 

[Busdriver320]

How about we let it go and keep our company business on our company site?

Just a thought...

Good point. Mea culpa. I was only trying to point out how we're deceived by mgmt by some of the things they say. Interview 13 and take 3? Either the candidate pool is really getting bad or they're really looking hard for anti-union personalities.

Peace

 

[hyflyin]

Good point. Mea culpa. I was only trying to point out how we're deceived by mgmt by some of the things they say. Interview 13 and take 3? Either the candidate pool is really getting bad or they're really looking hard for anti-union personalities.

Peace

Understand and agree.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Either the candidate pool is really getting bad or they're really looking hard for anti-union personalities.

Of course they are. Because without a CBA, they can impose any wage/work rule changes at any time. That's management heaven.

Understand and agree.

Glad to see you're admitting it...finally.