Virgin America Revenue...

[Fubijaakr]

Don't interrupt his rants with reality. It only angers him. Write it off to the chip on his black uniformed shoulder.

 

[NEDude]

I always love this comment. Also the "if you don't like it leave" version. If the union votes for it then that the unions prerogative.

And if a pilot group decides not to unionize it is their prerogative. It is their prerogative to decide if/when a union campaign becomes needed.

See that is the issue to begin with here - fubi and other accuse Virgin pilots of killing the profession by not being unionized. But when faced with examples of how unions (or unionized pilot groups since you prefer that wording) have made profession killing decisions, you defend it by saying "they voted on it so all is good", or if you are fubi you just ignore all of those examples.

What you are failing to recognize is that not organizing at this time is just as valid a choice as a union voting on an issue. The Jet Blue pilots voting down ALPA was an entirely democratic choice made by that pilot group. Their choice to do so was just as valid as Spirit pilots voting to strike. Just because you don't like the decision doesn't mean it is not a valid and democratic decision.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You can make any choice you want. Just realize your choices sometimes have unintended consequences.

 

[NEDude]

I don't recall voting on outsourcing any flying at Alaska Airlines. When did this vote happen and how did our pilot group happen to not hear about it?

Oh, you didn't vote for it? My mistake, sorry.


I just assumed your union would have voted for some scope protections and perhaps tried to protect union jobs. Sorry for you short-sightedness and the fact that it is allowing your jobs to go non-union.

Now I suppose you are going to try and defend your union failing to protect its own jobs. This should be interesting to see how you spin that...

 

[Mamma]

You have still not answered the question. Please explain how/when Alaska pilots voted for someone else to do our flying. I must have missed it. I could care less whether you have a union or not. Pilots groups sink or swim by the decisions they make. Some decisions work out some don't. I'm sure your group will do what is best for them.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Those would be Horizon jobs, Ace. Talk to them. They're Teamsters FYI.

 

[Mamma]

Oh, you didn't vote for it? My mistake, sorry.


I just assumed your union would have voted for some scope protections and perhaps tried to protect union jobs. Sorry for you short-sightedness and the fact that it is allowing your jobs to go non-union.

Now I suppose you are going to try and defend your union failing to protect its own jobs. This should be interesting to see how you spin that...

OK. I think you are mistaking Skywest doing flying for Horizon. We do not vote on Horizon's scope language as we are Alaska Airlines. Horizon is not ALPA either so I'm missing the point you are trying to make. BUT, i'll give you another go at it if you so desire.

 

[NEDude]

You have still not answered the question. Please explain how/when Alaska pilots voted for someone else to do our flying. I must have missed it. I could care less whether you have a union or not. Pilots groups sink or swim by the decisions they make. Some decisions work out some don't. I'm sure your group will do what is best for them.

You mean you didn't vote for your contract? I mean every contract out there has scope protections, so obviously yours does as well right? Perhaps you guys just felt there was no need for scope protections so you decided to vote for a contract that had none. In both cases, either by direct vote to allow it, or by voting for a contract that did not include scope protections, union jobs are allowed to be outsourced to a non-union carrier under the provisions of your contract.

 

[NEDude]

OK. I think you are mistaking Skywest doing flying for Horizon. We do not vote on Horizon's scope language as we are Alaska Airlines. Horizon is not ALPA either so I'm missing the point you are trying to make. BUT, i'll give you another go at it if you so desire.

The Skywest contract is with Alaska Airlines, to fly on Alaska Airlines routes. It is not a contract with Horizon. So it should fall under your (apparently non-existent) scope.

 

[Mamma]

The Skywest contract is with Alaska Airlines, to fly on Alaska Airlines routes. It is not a contract with Horizon. So it should fall under your (apparently non-existent) scope.

Are you confusing the Alaska Air Group with Alaska Airlines? I can understand your ignorance if that is the case because many do...especially in the media. The below article was supposed to say "Alaska Air Group." The issue we are having is the branding of aircraft on Horizon's side that now say "Alaska Airlines" when in fact they are not. But as the union expert you are, I'm sure you understand there is a process to go through and that the pilots of Alaska Airlines cannot vote on scope issues with Horizon.

Alaska Airlines Announces Routes, Schedule For New Partner

2/25/2011 5:06 a.m.

SEATTLE — Alaska Airlines today announced that SkyWest Airlines will begin flying six West Coast routes currently operated by Horizon Air, starting May 14. The Utah-based carrier will fly the routes using five 70-seat Bombardier CRJ-700 regional jets it is acquiring from Horizon.

Alaska's partnership with SkyWest for CRJ-700 flying enables Horizon to fly the Bombardier Q400 turboprop exclusively.

 

[NEDude]

Are you confusing the Alaska Air Group with Alaska Airlines? I can understand your ignorance if that is the case because many do...especially in the media. The below article was supposed to say "Alaska Air Group." The issue we are having is the branding of aircraft on Horizon's side that now say "Alaska Airlines" when in fact they are not. But as the union expert you are, I'm sure you understand there is a process to go through and that the pilots of Alaska Airlines cannot vote on scope issues with Horizon.

Alaska Airlines Announces Routes, Schedule For New Partner

2/25/2011 5:06 a.m.

SEATTLE — Alaska Airlines today announced that SkyWest Airlines will begin flying six West Coast routes currently operated by Horizon Air, starting May 14. The Utah-based carrier will fly the routes using five 70-seat Bombardier CRJ-700 regional jets it is acquiring from Horizon.

Alaska's partnership with SkyWest for CRJ-700 flying enables Horizon to fly the Bombardier Q400 turboprop exclusively.

If the contract was with Horizon, then I stand corrected.

However the marketing and ticket sales are being handled by Alaska Airlines, and the flights are operating with Alaska Airlines flight numbers. In other words this is Alaska Airlines branded flying. Are trying to argue that Alaska Airlines pilots have no scope protections regarding RJs and Alaska Airlines branded flying? If you do not, why on earth did your pilot group vote in favor of a contract that did not include scope protections for Alaska Airlines branded flying?

Unless you are arguing that Alaska Airlines marketing and selling tickets on flights with Alaska Airlines flight numbers is somehow NOT Alaska Airlines branded flying. Or you are claiming that this is in violation of the scope provisions of your contract, you cannot argue the fact that Alaska Airlines branded flying is being outsourced to non-union pilots in accordance with the contract approved by the ALPA pilots at Alaska Airlines.

 

[jayme]

I'm pretty sure that "AAG" could have SkyWest or VX for that matter fly 777s with Alaska Airlines painted on the side. Maybe I'm wrong. Educate me.

This, of course, has nothing to do with VX Revenue. I don't understand why every VX thread that NEdude contributes to ends up as a discussion about ALPA.

 

[NEDude]

I'm pretty sure that "AAG" could have SkyWest or VX for that matter fly 777s with Alaska Airlines painted on the side. Maybe I'm wrong. Educate me.

Apparently so. I guess the pilots did not vote for scope protections.

This, of course, has nothing to do with VX Revenue. I don't understand why every VX thread that NEdude contributes to ends up as a discussion about ALPA.

Because it usually drags fubijaakr and others out of the sewer to claim that all Virgin pilots, and everything associated with Virgin, are evil because we are not ALPA. Does not matter the topic or point of the claim, he drags the ALPA issue into it. So I like to point out the foolishness of his belief that ALPA is flawless and makes everything perfect, which gets us here.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm pretty sure that Fubi's complaint isn't that you're not ALPA. I think it's that you're non-union completely. It's not an ALPA issue.

 

[Mamma]

If the contract was with Horizon, then I stand corrected.

However the marketing and ticket sales are being handled by Alaska Airlines, and the flights are operating with Alaska Airlines flight numbers. In other words this is Alaska Airlines branded flying. Are trying to argue that Alaska Airlines pilots have no scope protections regarding RJs and Alaska Airlines branded flying? If you do not, why on earth did your pilot group vote in favor of a contract that did not include scope protections for Alaska Airlines branded flying?

Unless you are arguing that Alaska Airlines marketing and selling tickets on flights with Alaska Airlines flight numbers is somehow NOT Alaska Airlines branded flying. Or you are claiming that this is in violation of the scope provisions of your contract, you cannot argue the fact that Alaska Airlines branded flying is being outsourced to non-union pilots in accordance with the contract approved by the ALPA pilots at Alaska Airlines.

How can I reason with someone that has no idea what they are talking about? My pain threshold for holding your hand through this has come to a limit. I get it now that you think you are somehow validating your non-union existence while sticking it to Fubi at the same time. Here's a bit of advice if you want it: don't opine on another airline's CBA if you don't know what's in it. Do a little research on an issue to avoid sounding ignorant. And last, put Fubi on your ignore list if he gets you do riled up that you would lose credibility. He just likes pulling your chain and getting a reaction.

 

[jayme]

Because it usually drags fubijaakr and others out of the sewer to claim that all Virgin pilots, and everything associated with Virgin, are evil because we are not ALPA. Does not matter the topic or point of the claim, he drags the ALPA issue into it. So I like to point out the foolishness of his belief that ALPA is flawless and makes everything perfect, which gets us here.

1. I don't think we've been called "evil."
2. If we are, it's not because we aren't ALPA.
3. You seem to drag ALPA into this more than any other person in these threads.
4. As much as I dislike the guy, I don't agree that he believes that ALPA is flawless and makes everything perfect.

It would help if you would step back a little bit and calm down. There are plenty of legitimate gripes about how poorly we are compensated and how that makes it harder for other pilots to justify their pay.

 

[jayme]

How can I reason with someone that has no idea what they are talking about? My pain threshold for holding your hand through this has come to a limit. I get it now that you think you are somehow validating your non-union existence while sticking it to Fubi at the same time. Here's a bit of advice if you want it: don't opine on another airline's CBA if you don't know what's in it. Do a little research on an issue to avoid sounding ignorant. And last, put Fubi on your ignore list if he gets you do riled up that you would lose credibility. He just likes pulling your chain and getting a reaction.

Since your contract isn't in the public record, can you please correct us on what scope protections you have?

Assuming you voted "yes" on your last contract, and assuming you have no scope protection, doesn't NEdude have a point?

 

[Mamma]

Since your contract isn't in the public record, can you please correct us on what scope protections you have?

Assuming you voted "yes" on your last contract, and assuming you have no scope protection, doesn't NEdude have a point?

Why would you assume we have no scope protection? Alaska Airlines scope clause says all flying will be done by pilots in the seniority list. But....we cannot stop the Air Group from starting another airline, scoping out Horizon flying to Skywest or even buying another airline like Hawaiian and running them as a separate op like Horizon. The rebranding of Alaska Airlines livery on Horizon and Skywest planes is being worked on but it's a process. NEdude thinks ALPA can negotiate whatever we want when really its a case of give and take. At least we have a seat at the table to push for things important to us vs having no say.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Perhaps you could point out the crappy wages from your own history. And how your UNION, like ours, eventually raised them through contract negotiations instead of trying to bully and embarrass me personally.

The propensity of you and your SWA cronies to continue to gang up on people who disagree with you is childish and ugly.

And you might also point out that while you were engaged in that battle, SWAPA union members were welcome to share in the negotiated Union privileges of other airline pilot unions.

 

[strobzz]

Do you really thing your airline can afford to pay ANYONE a raise at your airline? You guys should be offering pay cuts, if anything.

ualdriver,which ALPA carrier did you fly L188's at?