Virgin America Revenue...

[Lake Alice]

NEdude,

You are very emotional in your arguments. A few points. TWA/AA merger amounted to an 8:1 integration or 52% staple. Allegheny/Mohawk which is referenced in McKaskill/Bond suggests a 50% staple. This 2% difference was also during a Ch.11 filing trending to CH.7. TWA was going to liquidate and they still received a 52% staple. Please tell me what you would have expected.
Regionals.
A 50 seater loses money, period. A Boyd research report of the AA filling states American will retire all Embraer ERJ 135/140/145, and some Bombardier CRJ 700 and ATR-72 by 2016 and begin retiring CRJ's in 2016. They are not cost effective and most routes may be flown with 319's. Unprofitable routes will simply be dropped. ERJ's and CRJ's are economically obsolete. This holds true for all SLP contracts. ALPA has nothing to do with the economics despite the opinion you state.

I understand you are upset about regional pay, I understand you are upset about VX pay and industry views of your benefits package but I must say AGAIN regional pilots are not worth the pay because the aircraft do not produce the revenue.
Also, this is not any unions fault. ALPA is not at fault for this. These are facts. This is not an opinion.

UAL has a stronger grasp on VX financials so I defer commentary.

 

[ualdriver]

OH come on, like having ALPA on property actually stopped concessions? Every single airline concession post 9/11 has been from a union carrier (mostly ALPA). In every case, they volunteered paycuts in round one to avert bankruptcy. EVERY case! Next, the company declared bankruptcy anyway and filed motion 1113 to void the pilot contract. Then they were forced round #2 of forced paycuts. Make no mistake, the airline will get paycuts and concessions whether you are ALPA or not. Frankly, I think ALPA has become too political an organization, with a goal of representing both majors and regionals which are contradictory to each other.

Your post above was making it sound like ALPA was tthe reason you were having to take pay cuts. Right now, ALPA is currently the reason you are NOT taking at least a 5% haircut. Sounds like so far you are getting your 1.95% worth.

Of course the ALPA carriers are the ones that took the big cuts. They were the ones with the best pilot benefits and the ones that were being undercut the most by the likes of JetBlue, Frontier, Southwest, and such.

To your other points, they are made with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. With that benefit, now pilots know that it is pretty pointless to try to "save" your airline by taking pay cuts outside of bankruptcy if you are likely to end up in bankruptcy anyway. I think that is the main reason why the American guys didn't even bother as they knew it was going to happen anyway. The Pinnacle guys should be thinking the same thing.

 

[Busdriver320]

You know, I usually just lurk around here but I've decided to chime in on a few things....


First: I'm glad for all you guys like Fubi, Fish, UAL, and all the other haters that you've had your golden one or two airline career. Maybe you took some paycuts or a downgrade, but you know there's a lot of guys that did all the right things back in 80's-90's and built their instructor -> 135 -> regional time and got on with a legacy. Those hired between mid '99 or so and 9/11 have had their careers and expectations destroyed. Many of us have had multiple jobs or jobs outside flying, or crappy flying jobs just to stay current. We were handed a sh1t sandwich and will never have the chance to get back where we should have been. I've never PFT'd (turned down CoEx back in the 90's...I'd be a capt at CAL now as they had the flowthrough back then), never signed a training bond (turned down ATA and USA3000 for that reason alone), and had a class date at a legacy cancelled once, with the pool dumped and being told to start the whole process over if we wanted to come back "when we do start hiring".
UAL, I'd take my file number there back if I can have it! I'm a 2172'er and there was no 10 year bypass back then. I was given a choice to come back to certain 2nd furlough (it had been announced the Guppy's would be parked) or resign. Nice, huh? I'd still be on the street on the 2nd furlough with the CAL option still above me. Whaddya say, can I have my seniority number back? As has been mentioned before, VX has been a lifeline for many ex-ATA, Aloha, MidEx, TWA, ABEX, and UAL folks.


Second: As far as the VA financials, ya'll are forgettin' somethin'; we're privately held and that "interest" is likely going back to the people who own us. The airline may "lose" money, but the owners are making money and that's all that counts, right? And who owns some of our airplanes? With registrations to companies located in some strip mall in Vegas and Salt Lake City and called the "521 leasing company" I can guarantee it isn't GCAS or ILFC. It's all a shell game where the 1% can hide and continue to amass their wealth and tell the rest of us we're lucky to have jobs because the company is losing money.


Third: There are many here that see the need for pay and retirement to improve, and if there aren't improvements in 2012 I think you'll see an organizing effort. While I have nothing personal against ALPA (all my former carriers were ALPA and I've done ALPA work in the past), you'll never see it at VX. Too many haters and people who feel they've been duped. We'll either get an in-house or go with Teamsters or TWU or someone else. There are people here I'd have never thought would support a union who are now saying they will. And then there are the ones who've been duped by the 1% into thinking they are IN the 1% or have some chance of being in the 1% and just hate unions period.

Yes, our pay and retirement needs to improve. It isn't as bad as some have purported it to be, but it needs to improve. Many of us came here under the impression it would significantly increase after a couple of years of the "startup" process and that time has passed. QOL, however, is pretty good except for reserve, and that is in the process of being improved now.


So go ahead and hate us and continue to call us names. Put up a bona fide legal picket line and I won't cross it, but don't tell me I have to go work at Home Depot for 25% of what my skills can earn. I'm simply living in the globalized world trying to make a living like everyone else, and playing the cards I was dealt.


For those of you like Lake Alice who direct their dislike to our pay or other issues and don't wish us fellow pilots personal failure, I thank you.


Happy New Year!


Standing by for Fubi to come with some snarky derivative of Busdriver....

 

[Fubijaakr]

Well, apparently you guys know what you're worth. I just wish you'd stick to RJ flying and NOT fly A320s for RJ wages.

 

[ackattacker]

Second: As far as the VA financials, ya'll are forgettin' somethin'; we're privately held and that "interest" is likely going back to the people who own us. The airline may "lose" money, but the owners are making money and that's all that counts, right? And who owns some of our airplanes? With registrations to companies located in some strip mall in Vegas and Salt Lake City and called the "521 leasing company" I can guarantee it isn't GCAS or ILFC. It's all a shell game where the 1% can hide and continue to amass their wealth and tell the rest of us we're lucky to have jobs because the company is losing money.

Most of what you said is reasonable except for this. Ultimately income is not matching expenditures, the balance sheet is plain as day. The company is losing money overall, and the only way the investors/owners are getting paid is because the company is borrowing more money. Ponzi scheme, shell game, whatever you want to call it, unless the company can turn an actual profit there is only one way that ends.

 

[Flyer1015]

Well, apparently you guys know what you're worth. I just wish you'd stick to RJ flying and NOT fly A320s for RJ wages.

Don't get me wrong fubi, if Delta calls, I'll go. If Alaska calls, the same. Ditto to American, UniCal, and all the big boys. However, all of them don't seem to be keen on hiring these days. So if JetBlue or VA call, I'm gone. There is no point sticking it out at an ALPA regional that has screwed our pilot group for over 5 years, and then agreeing to binding arbitration with a group of 3 highly unqualified negotatiors from within our ranks. Add the impending bankruptcy filing and a potential paycuts/concessions, I'd rather take my chances at a place like VA.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Well, you have to make your decision. Don't be surprised if other pilots shun you in your Johnny Cash uniform or you can't get a jumpseat ride.

 

[Flyer1015]

Well, you have to make your decision. Don't be surprised if other pilots shun you in your Johnny Cash uniform or you can't get a jumpseat ride.

We've taken a VA jumpseater at my ALPA carrier. And what deicision? Stay as a 5th year RJ FO with no movement or upgrade in sight, potential shamruptcy and concessions, or move on? That's not really a choice, if you are smart.

 

[ualdriver]

You know, I usually just lurk around here but I've decided to chime in on a few things....


First: I'm glad for all you guys like Fubi, Fish, UAL, and all the other haters that you've had your golden one or two airline career. Maybe you took some paycuts or a downgrade, but you know there's a lot of guys that did all the right things back in 80's-90's and built their instructor -> 135 -> regional time and got on with a legacy. Those hired between mid '99 or so and 9/11 have had their careers and expectations destroyed. Many of us have had multiple jobs or jobs outside flying, or crappy flying jobs just to stay current. We were handed a sh1t sandwich and will never have the chance to get back where we should have been. I've never PFT'd (turned down CoEx back in the 90's...I'd be a capt at CAL now as they had the flowthrough back then), never signed a training bond (turned down ATA and USA3000 for that reason alone), and had a class date at a legacy cancelled once, with the pool dumped and being told to start the whole process over if we wanted to come back "when we do start hiring".
UAL, I'd take my file number there back if I can have it! I'm a 2172'er and there was no 10 year bypass back then. I was given a choice to come back to certain 2nd furlough (it had been announced the Guppy's would be parked) or resign. Nice, huh? I'd still be on the street on the 2nd furlough with the CAL option still above me. Whaddya say, can I have my seniority number back? As has been mentioned before, VX has been a lifeline for many ex-ATA, Aloha, MidEx, TWA, ABEX, and UAL folks.


Second: As far as the VA financials, ya'll are forgettin' somethin'; we're privately held and that "interest" is likely going back to the people who own us. The airline may "lose" money, but the owners are making money and that's all that counts, right? And who owns some of our airplanes? With registrations to companies located in some strip mall in Vegas and Salt Lake City and called the "521 leasing company" I can guarantee it isn't GCAS or ILFC. It's all a shell game where the 1% can hide and continue to amass their wealth and tell the rest of us we're lucky to have jobs because the company is losing money.


Third: There are many here that see the need for pay and retirement to improve, and if there aren't improvements in 2012 I think you'll see an organizing effort. While I have nothing personal against ALPA (all my former carriers were ALPA and I've done ALPA work in the past), you'll never see it at VX. Too many haters and people who feel they've been duped. We'll either get an in-house or go with Teamsters or TWU or someone else. There are people here I'd have never thought would support a union who are now saying they will. And then there are the ones who've been duped by the 1% into thinking they are IN the 1% or have some chance of being in the 1% and just hate unions period.

To your first point, it doesn't matter what the reason is anyone went to VA, and I'm not going to enter a circular argument about the point, but VA wages are a drag on the industry. I don't care what anyone says, and I'm not going to respond any further as this has been hashed out a million times before.

Further, I don't really fault guys for going to VA, for example. It's a free country and you can do what you want. But if you make that decision, at least own up to the effect airlines VA, GoJets, JetBlue, etc., have had on the industry. If I didn't have a "golden" career and I chose to go to VA, I'd just say, yeah, you're right. It doesn drag down the industry but I have no choice. If you don't like the decision, tough luck. The guys that go to these undercutting airlines just get so defensive about what low wages and crappy work rules do the industry. Just own up to it and be done with it.

To your second point, that's just incorrect. The people/entities who earn the interest are the people who LOANED money to VA, which may or not may be the same people who contributed money or property to START-UP/ORGANIZE VA. Think about it like this: Suppose you and a group of people contribute money to start a corporation. You all put in $10,000 and start a business. A year later, the business needs a delivery truck, so they take out a loan from Bank A to buy the truck. Bank A gets the interest. The corporation gets the debt and pays the interest. The original founders and collecting the interest.

To your third point, I doubt you guys are getting a raise unless there is a mass exodus of pilots and the company has no other choice. They can't even afford to pay you what you're getting paid now. I don't care if you get a union or not, in my opinion if anything you guys need to suck it up and take a pay cut so that your low fares can actually cover your costs. You can't undercut in the airline biz unless your wages (an airline's largest controllable costs) help with the undercutting! Your wages aren't low enough yet!

 

[Fubijaakr]

The guys that go to these undercutting airlines just get so defensive about what low wages and crappy work rules do the industry. Just own up to it and be done with it.

..if anything you guys need to suck it up and take a pay cut so that your low fares can actually cover your costs. You can't undercut in the airline biz unless your wages (an airline's largest controllable costs) help with the undercutting! Your wages aren't low enough yet!

Two brilliant points. However, the phrase "Casting pearls before swine" comes to mind.