Virgin America Revenue...

[NEDude]

So true. Usairs MEC, for example, was told by ALPA that an expectation of date of hire was unreasonable. Nicolau during mediation expressed his negative opinion of date of hire. Nicolau, during arbitration, refused to award date of hire. How was this ALPA's fault. B6 has hundreds of Usair pilots many of which voted yes for ALPA but many voted no.
ALPA has not been perfect but ALPA is not responsible for your furlough. Economics are responsible for your furlough.

Not once, EVER, have I blamed ALPA for any of my furloughs. Another case of lack of reading comprehension.

What I have claimed is that after a furlough, I had the option of an ALPA carrier or Virgin America. Guess which one paid less than half of the other, and which pay rate did ALPA endorse? I have also claimed that others have been furloughed due to ALPA easing of scope - United replacing 737s with RJs anyone?

I have also claimed that there are thousands of pilots out there from places like TWA, Midwest, ATA, Aloha and such that DO blame ALPA for their lost jobs. I am not an expert on the TWA situation, but I do know the TWA guys feel strongly enough that ALPA screwed them to file a lawsuit against ALPA. Their evidence of the screw job was strong enough to win that lawsuit against ALPA.

On top of that what I have claimed about ALPA is they are a virtually powerless organization that that can only guarantee one thing and one thing only - to take 1.95% of my pay. They cannot protect against furloughs, they cannot protect me against bankruptcy, they cannot protect me in a merger, they cannot protect me from bad management decisions, they cannot protect me from pay cuts (in fact they have often advised in favor of paycuts), and they most definitely cannot and WILL NOT protect me against their past failings. All of those things have been pointed out by not only me, but by HUNDREDS of other on this forum, including yourself.

As for the economics of Virgin America the only thing I can offer is this: Virgin America has long outlasted the likes of Skybus and Independence Air. Virgin America keeps getting new investments and keeps getting financing to keep taking delivery of new airplanes. The only way those things happen is if the investors and financiers feel relatively secure in their investments. The de-regulation era is full people putting down a ton of cash to start an airline, but they ALWAYS have cut and run if the money doesn't come back very quickly. This is why there is the "five year rule" with regards to airline start-ups, if they make it to five years chances are they will survive or be at least strong enough to be good merger material. Virgin America is closing in on 4.5 years with several more airplanes coming - in other words the drawing down that proceeds furloughs or shutting down is not happening.

You and others have thrown out all sorts of numbers and such, but you have not been able to reasonably explain why Virgin keeps getting money, not when history of both the de-regulation era of aviation, as well as the recent history in the financial market, has been skittish investors who are very short on patience.

I have also said, several times, that there is a very real possibility that Virgin America will go the way of the dodo bird. I have stated MANY times that myself and most of us at Virgin have been through too much in our careers to think things are stable. I ALWAYS have my resume ready, and I would regardless of what carrier I am with. That being said, no matter what happens, I do not regret going to Virgin as opposed to the ALPA carrier I was offered a job at because in the few years I have been here I am over $70,000 ahead of where I would be with the ALPA carrier.

My main beef with the ALPA cheerleaders is they admit numerous times that ALPA is a weak organization, with no real unity- fubi claims it all the time. But you then expect others to make sacrifices to make up for your own lack of unity by offering false threats denied jumpseats, insults, and expressing vile hatred for start-up companies with a new way of doing business which have been one of the cornerstones of the American economy for 200+ years. Really it seems most of the ALPA cheerleaders love capitalism as long as it doesn't exist in their profession, which is a very hypocritical view.

Lastly, if the bankruptcy argument for lower pay that fubi likes to point out, was the sole event that has led to declining pay for pilots at major airlines, I may be able to buy his argument. But when adjusted for inflation, airline pilot pay had been declining for twenty years prior to United, Delta, Northwest and USAirways heading to court. Since then the union in-fighting at USAirways, the shutdown of carriers like, ATA, Midwest and Aloha (the latter with the help of ALPA endorsed poverty level wages), and the ALPA endorsed furloughs of pilots at United (scope relaxation and replacing of 737s with RJs) have helped in keeping wages low. To pin the entire blame on pilots at one or two companies (particularly when most of those pilots were long-time dues paying members at ALPA) shows total ignorance at the entire post-regulation era. I for one cannot look past someone displaying such total ignorance.

 

[Lake Alice]

I've seen you post this a few times, and I'm not sure where you're getting it from. M/B does not suggest a 50% staple at all. In fact, it doesn't suggest any sort of integration methodology. All it does is lay out a process that must be followed.

M/B refers to section 3/13 of A/M which suggest that one pilot group not be staples, i.e. 50%

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Don't get me wrong fubi, if Delta calls, I'll go. If Alaska calls, the same. Ditto to American, UniCal, and all the big boys. However, all of them don't seem to be keen on hiring these days. So if JetBlue or VA call, I'm gone. There is no point sticking it out at an ALPA regional that has screwed our pilot group for over 5 years, and then agreeing to binding arbitration with a group of 3 highly unqualified negotatiors from within our ranks. Add the impending bankruptcy filing and a potential paycuts/concessions, I'd rather take my chances at a place like VA.

ALPA hasn't skrewd you, your fellow pilots, the very guys sitting next to you are the skrewers. If you want to feel better meet a Rep out in the parking lot, take your aluminum baseball bat and explain you point, they will listen.
Too much Ghandi and not enough Jimmy Hoffa...

 

[Lake Alice]

Not once, EVER, have I blamed ALPA for any of my furloughs. Another case of lack of reading comprehension.

What I have claimed is that after a furlough, I had the option of an ALPA carrier or Virgin America. Guess which one paid less than half of the other, and which pay rate did ALPA endorse? I have also claimed that others have been furloughed due to ALPA easing of scope - United replacing 737s with RJs anyone?

I have also claimed that there are thousands of pilots out there from places like TWA, Midwest, ATA, Aloha and such that DO blame ALPA for their lost jobs. I am not an expert on the TWA situation, but I do know the TWA guys feel strongly enough that ALPA screwed them to file a lawsuit against ALPA. Their evidence of the screw job was strong enough to win that lawsuit against ALPA.

On top of that what I have claimed about ALPA is they are a virtually powerless organization that that can only guarantee one thing and one thing only - to take 1.95% of my pay. They cannot protect against furloughs, they cannot protect me against bankruptcy, they cannot protect me in a merger, they cannot protect me from bad management decisions, they cannot protect me from pay cuts (in fact they have often advised in favor of paycuts), and they most definitely cannot and WILL NOT protect me against their past failings. All of those things have been pointed out by not only me, but by HUNDREDS of other on this forum, including yourself.

As for the economics of Virgin America the only thing I can offer is this: Virgin America has long outlasted the likes of Skybus and Independence Air. Virgin America keeps getting new investments and keeps getting financing to keep taking delivery of new airplanes. The only way those things happen is if the investors and financiers feel relatively secure in their investments. The de-regulation era is full people putting down a ton of cash to start an airline, but they ALWAYS have cut and run if the money doesn't come back very quickly. This is why there is the "five year rule" with regards to airline start-ups, if they make it to five years chances are they will survive or be at least strong enough to be good merger material. Virgin America is closing in on 4.5 years with several more airplanes coming - in other words the drawing down that proceeds furloughs or shutting down is not happening.

You and others have thrown out all sorts of numbers and such, but you have not been able to reasonably explain why Virgin keeps getting money, not when history of both the de-regulation era of aviation, as well as the recent history in the financial market, has been skittish investors who are very short on patience.

I have also said, several times, that there is a very real possibility that Virgin America will go the way of the dodo bird. I have stated MANY times that myself and most of us at Virgin have been through too much in our careers to think things are stable. I ALWAYS have my resume ready, and I would regardless of what carrier I am with. That being said, no matter what happens, I do not regret going to Virgin as opposed to the ALPA carrier I was offered a job at because in the few years I have been here I am over $70,000 ahead of where I would be with the ALPA carrier.

My main beef with the ALPA cheerleaders is they admit numerous times that ALPA is a weak organization, with no real unity- fubi claims it all the time. But you then expect others to make sacrifices to make up for your own lack of unity by offering false threats denied jumpseats, insults, and expressing vile hatred for start-up companies with a new way of doing business which have been one of the cornerstones of the American economy for 200+ years. Really it seems most of the ALPA cheerleaders love capitalism as long as it doesn't exist in their profession, which is a very hypocritical view.

Lastly, if the bankruptcy argument for lower pay that fubi likes to point out, was the sole event that has led to declining pay for pilots at major airlines, I may be able to buy his argument. But when adjusted for inflation, airline pilot pay had been declining for twenty years prior to United, Delta, Northwest and USAirways heading to court. Since then the union in-fighting at USAirways, the shutdown of carriers like, ATA, Midwest and Aloha (the latter with the help of ALPA endorsed poverty level wages), and the ALPA endorsed furloughs of pilots at United (scope relaxation and replacing of 737s with RJs) have helped in keeping wages low. To pin the entire blame on pilots at one or two companies (particularly when most of those pilots were long-time dues paying members at ALPA) shows total ignorance at the entire post-regulation era. I for one cannot look past someone displaying such total ignorance.

ALPA didn't relax scope. Individual pilot groups voted to relax scope in return for other items. This is an individual pilot group decision and not ALPA. Every pilot group that relaxed scope voted in favor of it. ALPA did not impose this on any pilot group.
First year regional pilots pay is low and, again, this is not ALPA's fault. You aren't worth anything as entry level regional pilot. You aren't worth anything because the money isn't there from the Major airline paying the SLP. This isn't ALPA's fault. It's economics. You have an uneducated hard on for ALPA and you clearly don't understand economics.
VX finances are difficult to explain but one thing is for sure. The truth is hidden because the company is private. I'm not suggesting this is good or bad.

 

[tzskipper]

ALPA didn't relax scope. Individual pilot groups voted to relax scope in return for other items. This is an individual pilot group decision and not ALPA. Every pilot group that relaxed scope voted in favor of it. ALPA did not impose this on any pilot group.
First year regional pilots pay is low and, again, this is not ALPA's fault. You aren't worth anything as entry level regional pilot. You aren't worth anything because the money isn't there from the Major airline paying the SLP. This isn't ALPA's fault. It's economics. You have an uneducated hard on for ALPA and you clearly don't understand economics.
VX finances are difficult to explain but one thing is for sure. The truth is hidden because the company is private. I'm not suggesting this is good or bad.

LA,

I think your point is the thing that most pilots do not want to accept; the basic principle that ALPA is a truly democratic, from the bottom up organization. Pilots elect LEC reps, LEC reps elect MEC positions, LEC and MEC participate and vote on ALPA BOD issues (as the LEC reps make up the BOD at the national level).

ALPA is basically set up to provide two different areas of "expertise" (imo) for pilots; on a "micro" (individual airline) level, ALPA is a toolbox which provides analysis and advice in navigating individual negotiations. As an aside (again imo), the sooner pilots understand that negotiations are driven by the economic realities of their specific property (these realities are what the Mediator uses as guidance) and that "pattern bargaining" no longer really is the driver, the easier the process becomes for the Negotiating committee, SPC and MEC to complete an agreement.

On a "macro" level ALPA provides legal and medical support for all member pilots, along with the ability to work with Washington D.C. on issues concerning our profession. Again, before anyone gets pissy, it is the line pilot that elects the LEC rep(s) that make up the MEC, and it is the MEC that gives direction to the ALPA national BOD (remember bottom up democracy?) for it's longer term, broader goals.

At the end of the day, it is the individual pilots responsibility to participate in the process at the local level, as that participation is the driver of the entire local and national organization.

Have a good New Year.

S

 

[NEDude]

ALPA didn't relax scope. Individual pilot groups voted to relax scope in return for other items. This is an individual pilot group decision and not ALPA. Every pilot group that relaxed scope voted in favor of it. ALPA did not impose this on any pilot group.
First year regional pilots pay is low and, again, this is not ALPA's fault. You aren't worth anything as entry level regional pilot. You aren't worth anything because the money isn't there from the Major airline paying the SLP. This isn't ALPA's fault. It's economics. You have an uneducated hard on for ALPA and you clearly don't understand economics.
VX finances are difficult to explain but one thing is for sure. The truth is hidden because the company is private. I'm not suggesting this is good or bad.

I do understand economics - that is why I went with Virgin, not the ALPA carrier. I have been at Virgin less than two years and I am already nearly $70,000 ahead of where I would be had I stayed at the ALPA carrier. That is good economics.

I understand that it was individual pilot groups that made the decisions to relax scope. However those collective decisions by ALL of the ALPA represented legacy pilot groups (and APA) to relax scope and allow RJs has had a devastating effect on the industry and profession. ALPA national failed to provide any sort of guidance or common strategy to be used by its groups regarding RJs, and many other important issues, thereby failing in its capacity as a national "union". The decisions made by the individual groups were very selfish and there is crystal clear proof of the damage they have caused to the profession, yet they are given a "free pass" by the ALPA apologists. That is called a double standard.

On the economic side, pilots at Virgin have been told to just sit on unemployment or get a job in another industry instead of taking the best available job at the time. I know that seems like a fine and dandy argument in fairy tail land. But for someone who has spent 20+ years as an airline pilot, there is not a lot of marketable skills that someone can take outside of the industry in a very tight job market. Have you spent time on the unemployment line during this economic downturn? I have. In the metro area I live in most of the jobs were either part-time store clerks, in the medical field or in computer technology. The part-time store clerks paid worse than unemployment (actually about what the ALPA regional paid) and I have no medical training and my computer technology expertise is over a decade and a half old. In other words I would have to go back to school to get additional training. So tell me, economic master, in an environment where college graduates are struggling to find entry level jobs, and thousands of experienced workers are out of jobs, does it make economic sense to take on loads of new debt to go back to school in the hopes of finding a job in a new field during the worst job market in over a generation? Or does it make more economic sense to take the best available job in an industry in which you are experienced? That is real world economics my friend, economics faced not only by the hundreds of us at Virgin America, but by the thousands airline pilots who lost their jobs over the last ten plus years.

You want more economics - how about this: When one pilot group (let's just say Delta ALPA in the early 1990s) votes to allow RJs to be flown by pilots at another airline (let's just say Comair) making pennies on the dollar, that changes the airlines economic structure. The other airlines (Continental, USAirways, American) see this and decide they need to outsource flying to remain competitive. Slowly, one by one, each airline tries to outdo each other on the RJs to gain a competitive advantage. Then a pilot group decides to allow even larger RJs, and the pattern repeats itself. Are you ignorant enough to think the environment, and thus the economic realities, that allowed RJs to flourish was not created in part by decisions made by pilot groups?

 

[PCL_128]

M/B refers to section 3/13 of A/M which suggest that one pilot group not be staples, i.e. 50%

Section 3 of A/M just requires that the merger be "fair and equitable." It doesn't provide or prohibit any methods of integration. It leaves it open for an arbitrator to decide what is fair. Section 13 is only a process. It includes direct negotiations and leads to mandatory binding arbitration after 90 days. Again, it includes no guidance on integration methodology.

 

[Lake Alice]

LA,

I think your point is the thing that most pilots do not want to accept; the basic principle that ALPA is a truly democratic, from the bottom up organization. Pilots elect LEC reps, LEC reps elect MEC positions, LEC and MEC participate and vote on ALPA BOD issues (as the LEC reps make up the BOD at the national level).

ALPA is basically set up to provide two different areas of "expertise" (imo) for pilots; on a "micro" (individual airline) level, ALPA is a toolbox which provides analysis and advice in navigating individual negotiations. As an aside (again imo), the sooner pilots understand that negotiations are driven by the economic realities of their specific property (these realities are what the Mediator uses as guidance) and that "pattern bargaining" no longer really is the driver, the easier the process becomes for the Negotiating committee, SPC and MEC to complete an agreement.

On a "macro" level ALPA provides legal and medical support for all member pilots, along with the ability to work with Washington D.C. on issues concerning our profession. Again, before anyone gets pissy, it is the line pilot that elects the LEC rep(s) that make up the MEC, and it is the MEC that gives direction to the ALPA national BOD (remember bottom up democracy?) for it's longer term, broader goals.

At the end of the day, it is the individual pilots responsibility to participate in the process at the local level, as that participation is the driver of the entire local and national organization.

Have a good New Year.

S

Exactly. It's a vote. Like I said I'm not a fan of ALPA but at least they give you the chance to vote.

 

[Snapshot]

Well, you have to make your decision. Don't be surprised if other pilots shun you in your Johnny Cash uniform or you can't get a jumpseat ride.

Weak.

You are one of the few pilots out there that make me wish ALPA allowed us to vote on who gets furloughed. You wouldn't stand a chance and you might get an eye opening dose of reality. Work is work. Work that pays better than you last job is a better job. Perhaps you think the process is: Start a Union, demand a pay rate, then find an airline to employ you. It isn't. That being said, it would be nice if they got around to standing up for themselves. What are y'all waiting for?

A whole lot of pilots at Virgin are from elsewhere and they get it. Do you really think that you are more aware of their pay than they are? They have to live on it, for Christ's sake... They also realize that it pays more than regionals and a hell of a lot more than unemployment.
That being said, it would be nice if they got around to standing up for themselves. What are y'all waiting for?

I say again, as much as you want to blame someone else for your woes.....
Virgin does not get to vote on your contract. Allegiant does not get to vote on your contract. Regionals do not get to vote on your contract. I don't give two $hits what someone else is willing to work for. I work for what I'm willing to work for.

If you are unhappy with any facet of your life, take it up with YOUR PILOT GROUP. Management didn't impose anything on them......
They voted for and accepted it.

 

[jayme]

That being said, it would be nice if they got around to standing up for themselves. What are y'all waiting for?

I believe that guys are waiting to see what the company comes up with for our next raise. It is widely expected to be announced soon. I also think most guys think we will get closer to JetBlue faster if we stay union-free, as opposed to locking in our pay while we negotiate for years as the company drags their feet.

Not saying I agree, just trying to answer your question.