Virgin America Revenue...

[Mamma]

So Fubijaakr, you feel that a low paying non-unionized airline like Virgin is dragging the industry down. Its not fair. But, on the same hand, you will advocate the single most destructive and stagnating factor in our industry...age 65 as being acceptable and fair. Seems like it is all "me me me me" with you. Maybe if age 65 did not happen, stagnation and future prospects would not be as grim and outfits like Virgin would have to pay more to attract pilots. Now, I understand it happened and it is what it is now. But, so did Virgin. They happened and they are here.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Not really. My only point with Age 65 is that it's a done deal. It isn't going away. Crying over spilled milk won't change anything.

 

[Mamma]

Not really. My only point with Age 65 is that it's a done deal. It isn't going away. Crying over spilled milk won't change anything.

No. The law is the law but the choice is still yours. You could retire at age 60 along with the rest of the "pro-union" and "pro-profession" pilots and help the industry. But, most are choosing to stay and stagnating the profession and soon wages. Thanks ALPA for this gift.

 

[mxer]

Perhaps you could point out the crappy wages from your own history. And how your UNION, like ours, eventually raised them through contract negotiations instead of trying to bully and embarrass me personally.

The propensity of you and your SWA cronies to continue to gang up on people who disagree with you is childish and ugly.

And you might also point out that while you were engaged in that battle, SWAPA union members were welcome to share in the negotiated Union privileges of other airline pilot unions.

Now thats just funny. Fubi, I had to double check that it was you posting this. Pot/Kettle. "eventually raised them..." Same will most likely happen here. All in due time. Instead of trying to "bully and embarrass" VX pilots with your personal attacks and insults, try a little support and encouragement. Every word of your post is just awesome.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Wrong. Thank ICAO and the Congress for the gift. Last time I checked, ALPA isn't one of the three branches of government.

 

[Mamma]

Wrong. Thank ICAO and the Congress for the gift. Last time I checked, ALPA isn't one of the three branches of government.

Then why even have a union? Do you think if Prater actually listened to his membership and advocated no change this would have gone through? Probably. BUT, what if Prater actually listened to his membership and had a pair of balls? Imagine him going on the View, Oprah and taking out ads in the papers saying how the 60,000 pilot strong union does not advocate this change due to safety concerns and destruction of careers? Hmmmmmmmm. I imagine the soccer moms would have put some serious heat on Oberstar and Congress to not change this law. So, no, I saw that ALPA dishonestly gave Congress the gift of their rubber stamp and this went though. ALPA did not even give the rank and file the benefit of a reach around with a delayed integration program.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I think ALPA recognized the inevitability of the change and decided it was more profitable expenditure of time and assets protecting retirement language.

We weren't going to stop that train. So why expend lobbying capital to try. At some point you have to trust the judgment of the guy on the scene rather than rely on polling data.

 

[Mamma]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I think ALPA recognized the inevitability of the change and decided it was more profitable expenditure of time and assets protecting retirement language.

We weren't going to stop that train. So why expend lobbying capital to try. At some point you have to trust the judgment of the guy on the scene rather than rely on polling data.

What about the Allied Pilots Association? They opposed Age 65 but ALPA let them twist in the wind. Imagine the influence of both unions combined? Defeatists like you who say "it was going to happen anyway" to an incredibly destructive event towards the profession deserve no respect in a true union.

 

[NEDude]

1. I don't think we've been called "evil."
2. If we are, it's not because we aren't ALPA.
3. You seem to drag ALPA into this more than any other person in these threads.
4. As much as I dislike the guy, I don't agree that he believes that ALPA is flawless and makes everything perfect.

It would help if you would step back a little bit and calm down. There are plenty of legitimate gripes about how poorly we are compensated and how that makes it harder for other pilots to justify their pay.

I have to respectfully disagree with you regarding points one and two - fubi, and others, have called us evil due to among other things not being ALPA. Fubi has in many posts on other threads voiced open contempt for Teamsters, APA, SWAPA and any and every non-ALPA union out there. So yes, when addressing him, I point out ALPA specifically.

BTW - I have fun getting him riled up as well. Certainly is a fun way to pass the time on reserve.

 

[NEDude]

Why would you assume we have no scope protection? Alaska Airlines scope clause says all flying will be done by pilots in the seniority list. But....we cannot stop the Air Group from starting another airline, scoping out Horizon flying to Skywest or even buying another airline like Hawaiian and running them as a separate op like Horizon. The rebranding of Alaska Airlines livery on Horizon and Skywest planes is being worked on but it's a process. NEdude thinks ALPA can negotiate whatever we want when really its a case of give and take. At least we have a seat at the table to push for things important to us vs having no say.

So you are claiming that Alaska Airlines marketing and selling tickets on flights operated with Alaska Airlines flight numbers is not Alaska Airlines flying?

Okay, just wanted to get that straight.

For the record, in case people have missed it the many times I have posted it - I AM NOT ANTI-UNION OR EVEN ANTI-ALPA. I HAVE NEVER BLAMED ALPA FOR MY FURLOUGHS. I have been a happy dues paying member of both ALPA and Teamsters and was part of an ALPA organizing committee!! I have also never claimed that pay and benefits were great at Virgin, only that they were significantly better than what I was making at an ALPA regional and that there are union wages out there that are the same or less than Virgin.

What I am opposed to is baseless statements that pilots at Virgin America (or JetBlue or Allegiant) are seniority hopping low time pilots who are responsible for dragging wages down. Numerous factors, including some bad decisions made by ALPA groups, are the reason wages have dropped. I cannot speak to the JetBlue or Allegiant pilots, but the majority of pilots at Virgin are ex-TWA, Midwest, ATA, Aloha, USA3000, United, USAirways, not a bunch of 25 year old RJ drivers looking for a short cut (as fubi has claimed on many occasions).

If the time comes that we at Virgin decide we need to unionize, I will fully support it and even take an active role in doing so as I did in the past. But I am not going to live in the fantasy land that so many ALPA cheerleaders like to promote that going union will solve our issues. In fact in the near to mid term a union may even create more issues. But the decision to organize rests solely with the Virgin pilots and nobody else, regardless of what others may think it does to the industry. That is the standard that is applied to groups who vote to give up scope - it was their decision, their perogative, regardless of how it may affect the rest of the industry. If you apply that standard to one pilot group, and don't apply it to another, that is called hypocrisy. For the record, I don't like or respect hypocrites.

 

[Mamma]

So you are claiming that Alaska Airlines marketing and selling tickets on flights operated with Alaska Airlines flight numbers is not Alaska Airlines flying?

Okay, just wanted to get that straight.

For the record, in case people have missed it the many times I have posted it - I AM NOT ANTI-UNION OR EVEN ANTI-ALPA. I HAVE NEVER BLAMED ALPA FOR MY FURLOUGHS. I have been a happy dues paying member of both ALPA and Teamsters and was part of an ALPA organizing committee!! I have also never claimed that pay and benefits were great at Virgin, only that they were significantly better than what I was making at an ALPA regional and that there are union wages out there that are the same or less than Virgin.

What I am opposed to is baseless statements that pilots at Virgin America (or JetBlue or Allegiant) are seniority hopping low time pilots who are responsible for dragging wages down. Numerous factors, including some bad decisions made by ALPA groups, are the reason wages have dropped. I cannot speak to the JetBlue or Allegiant pilots, but the majority of pilots at Virgin are ex-TWA, Midwest, ATA, Aloha, USA3000, United, USAirways, not a bunch of 25 year old RJ drivers looking for a short cut (as fubi has claimed on many occasions).

If the time comes that we at Virgin decide we need to unionize, I will fully support it and even take an active role in doing so as I did in the past. But I am not going to live in the fantasy land that so many ALPA cheerleaders like to promote that going union will solve our issues. In fact in the near to mid term a union may even create more issues. But the decision to organize rests solely with the Virgin pilots and nobody else, regardless of what others may think it does to the industry. That is the standard that is applied to groups who vote to give up scope - it was their decision, their perogative, regardless of how it may affect the rest of the industry. If you apply that standard to one pilot group, and don't apply it to another, that is called hypocrisy. For the record, I don't like or respect hypocrites.

I am and was not blasting VX in the slightest. As I said before, your pilot group will do what is best for your pilot group. All I am doing is correcting your understanding of our scope agreement and who Skywest is doing the flying for.

For the last time, Skywest is flying HORIZON ROUTES. We cannot change that and we don't have a say in it. Are you clear on this now? As I told you before, we are in discussions about the change of livery on the aircraft. This Skywest issue is pretty much numero uno for the pilot group on the upcoming contract and we will try to mitigate it.

 

[waveflyer]

Is anyone not familiar w/ saw's old wages- but that said, I don't feel bad for any of older pilots, they got stock and profit sharing that still put them up there with other legacy pilots. But you don't see SWA getting on here bashing VX- I see you doing it.

So- enlighten me- when did Alaska become union? Did you, or did you not have far less planes than VA in 1980? Didn't your airline argue for deregulation so you could come in and undercut PanAm?

Sorry you don't like competition- but as I pointed out - at least neither SWA or VA are outsourcing - get your own flying back in the tent and away from SkyWest and you might be remotely credible- or is the CRJ-700 too complicated for you?

Until then you're just a troll

Perhaps you could point out the crappy wages from your own history. And how your UNION, like ours, eventually raised them through contract negotiations instead of trying to bully and embarrass me personally.

The propensity of you and your SWA cronies to continue to gang up on people who disagree with you is childish and ugly.

And you might also point out that while you were engaged in that battle, SWAPA union members were welcome to share in the negotiated Union privileges of other airline pilot unions.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Wave,

You asked about the mood at VA. There is widespread grumbling about the pay and work rules needing to be brought up to industry norms. The company has for the last several years announced early in the year pay raises to be effective June 1 of each year. Last year the raise was disappointing to many here. There is also a work rules review going on right now that has pilot reps on the committee. The results of those two items will drive the mood of the pilot group going forward.

Many here have prior experience working in union shops. Many here would like to see us under a CBA, but the question is which bargaining agent would work for us. There is a lot of resentment towards ALPA for opposing VA's certification and lack of support for former members landing here from shut down carriers. A lot of former Teamsters here are advising against going that route as well. Going in house seems best but is the toughest way to go.

A catch 22 we have is if the company doesn't give raises and work rule improvements it will hasten the union drive, while at the same time the resulting RLA imposed status quo during the negotiation of a first contract will further drag out our low pay pain.

Interesting times, stay tuned...

 

[Lake Alice]

Wave,

You asked about the mood at VA. There is widespread grumbling about the pay and work rules needing to be brought up to industry norms. The company has for the last several years announced early in the year pay raises to be effective June 1 of each year. Last year the raise was disappointing to many here. There is also a work rules review going on right now that has pilot reps on the committee. The results of those two items will drive the mood of the pilot group going forward.

Many here have prior experience working in union shops. Many here would like to see us under a CBA, but the question is which bargaining agent would work for us. There is a lot of resentment towards ALPA for opposing VA's certification and lack of support for former members landing here from shut down carriers. A lot of former Teamsters here are advising against going that route as well. Going in house seems best but is the toughest way to go.

A catch 22 we have is if the company doesn't give raises and work rule improvements it will hasten the union drive, while at the same time the resulting RLA imposed status quo during the negotiation of a first contract will further drag out our low pay pain.

Interesting times, stay tuned...

If there is truly widespread grumbling then this will certainly be an interesting time for VX pilots. The only improvements Jetblue pilots have received were as a result of 2 union drives and significant attrition in 05 and 06. The likelihood of seeing anything significant has now diminished as the union threat is less. While we did receive pay enhancements the benefits, retirement, merger/ scope protection are still well below average.
Like Jetblue VX will certainly target particular groups whom they consider to be the voting block or have the most influence. Prepare to see a level of underhandedness like you've never seen and union busting companies like Ford and Harrison take over your crew room, mailboxes and inboxes.
An interesting time for VX indeed.

 

[pilotpm]

The propensity of you and your SWA cronies to continue to gang up on people who disagree with you is childish and ugly.

WOW! Only through a deft move did I avoid spitting coffee all over my computer when I read this from you. You really crack me up. You, Fish/Fubi, are the poster boy for childish and ugly! OMG that is some funny stuff right there.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Lake,

We watched very closely during the FA union drive. The F&H led company response was everywhere. We are also watching closely to the treatment of the FAs now that the drive is over. It failed, but the vote was 60/40 with over 90% turnout, a strong first effort.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I have to respectfully disagree with you regarding points one and two - fubi, and others, have called us evil due to among other things not being ALPA..

Nope. Find me one quote. I always point out you're NON-UNION. That's all.

All pilot unions help jack the house. You undermine it. Do you understand the difference? Or are you so consumed by ALPA hate that you read everything with a jaundiced eye?

Even your blind dog avatar could do better, but its very appropriate in your case.

 

[NEDude]

I am and was not blasting VX in the slightest. As I said before, your pilot group will do what is best for your pilot group. All I am doing is correcting your understanding of our scope agreement and who Skywest is doing the flying for.

For the last time, Skywest is flying HORIZON ROUTES. We cannot change that and we don't have a say in it. Are you clear on this now? As I told you before, we are in discussions about the change of livery on the aircraft. This Skywest issue is pretty much numero uno for the pilot group on the upcoming contract and we will try to mitigate it.

Fair enough, you got caught up in a long running disagreement with one of your co-workers.

As I said before, if the Skywest flying is not being marketed and sold as Alaska Airlines flights with Alaska Airlines flight numbers, I apologize to you.

But the basis of my statement stands correct - just perhaps should be applied to a different pilot group - union flying is being outsourced to a non-union shop and such a transfer is being allowed by the union under the provisions of the contract in which it negotiated. Which ever airline this is being outsourced from, be it Alaska or Horizon, the pilots did not feel strongly enough about protecting their own union's jobs to make that a priority in negotiations. This is, as you say and I agree with, entirely their prerogative. But the pilots of that group do not have the right to then accost other pilot groups and accuse them of "lowering the bar" when they themselves failed to protect their own jobs from outsourcing.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Is VX hiring?

 

[Mamma]

Fair enough, you got caught up in a long running disagreement with one of your co-workers.

As I said before, if the Skywest flying is not being marketed and sold as Alaska Airlines flights with Alaska Airlines flight numbers, I apologize to you.

But the basis of my statement stands correct - just perhaps should be applied to a different pilot group - union flying is being outsourced to a non-union shop and such a transfer is being allowed by the union under the provisions of the contract in which it negotiated. Which ever airline this is being outsourced from, be it Alaska or Horizon, the pilots did not feel strongly enough about protecting their own union's jobs to make that a priority in negotiations. This is, as you say and I agree with, entirely their prerogative. But the pilots of that group do not have the right to then accost other pilot groups and accuse them of "lowering the bar" when they themselves failed to protect their own jobs from outsourcing.

Just another point to make since you threw the spear. Don't underestimate Management. They are sneaky bastards. I don't think the Horizon guys ever saw this coming.