SWAPA/ALPA negotiate settlement

[Andy]

What are you, anyway, a March 2010 hire? You have a whopping 14 months on the line at AAI, and you're the expert. :laugh:

Wow. How many of the last 14 months have you been on the line at AAI?

 

[luv2fly]

Ty,

Do you really believe you guys "proposed" ---"about 250" captain seats? And, you really think that SWA balked at the training cost? I am sorry, but you guys are thinking on the wrong scale. You need to think on the scale of 6000 pilots. We have over 250 Captain training events every month! We have over 250 Captain qualified First Officers ready to fill those slots, requiring no training. So quit spewing your BS!

 

[Nindiri]

Any updates out of Dallas? Some of the SWA pilots posting here this weekend were saying that SWAPA would not negotiate in good faith. Hopefully it was just a few malcontents, and SWAPA has more integrity than that, but it would help to get some good news from Dallas.

 

[Nindiri]

Actually, the proper name is....Mexico.

:beer:

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I hope the AT MC has the guts to put this on the table. I know it would pass. It just seems the logical way to come together without hurting each others' feelings. Sure the angry 12 would complain about it, but who the f%&k cares. they had their day 2 weeks ago.

MJ, is that you?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Ty,

We have over 250 Captain training events every month!

PT/PC is not a Captain training event. Just a recurrent. No one can put out 250 fresh captains a month. You got 14 sims running 24 hours a day? because that's what it would take.

Actually more than 14, or no one would take recurrent checkrides that month.

 

[titan1]

If you want to make posts against your own team, Tokyo Joe, perhaps you ought to get your facts straight.

We did propose giving up some junior CA seats, about 250 of them. SWA management did not want that to happen because of all of the training events it would trigger, as displaced 737 CA bid 717CA, displaced 717CA bid 737FO, etc.

What are you, anyway, a March 2010 hire? You have a whopping 14 months on the line at AAI, and you're the expert. :laugh:

I like it! Sitt 'n' back and havin a bhruski! Enjoying the ride watching tranny self destruct! Pop, there goes another AAhhhh!!!

 

[titan1]

And in 2 weeks, you'll once again post "Wow. Just wow." followed by "It's ON.". Then the same posted in Nov once the Arby's menu is printed.

"Juan" Valdez is a joke! Step down "my friend"!

 

[CaptWidgeon]

Some of the SWA pilots posting here this weekend were saying that SWAPA would not negotiate in good faith.

i'll bite.
who said that and where?

 

[luv2fly]

Ty,

We have over 250 Captain training events every month!

PT/PC is not a Captain training event. Just a recurrent. No one can put out 250 fresh captains a month. You got 14 sims running 24 hours a day? because that's what it would take.

Actually more than 14, or no one would take recurrent checkrides that month.

I said training events, not Captain upgrade.

 

[Nindiri]

There really isn't any "negotiating" going on anymore. The sides are meeting and some "offers" may cross the table, but nothing will happen. Swapa is done giving and the Tran boys are feeling too entitled. It will go to arbitration, period. The only remaining question is what will GK do? I have a pretty good idea it will not be what the AirTran pilots want to have happen. We shall see. To bad it's going to crash and burn when it could have been a very successful acquisition.

Among others, that was just a couple of days ago, CaptWidgeon. If SWAPA is "really" not going to negotiate, why did they invite the AT team back to Dallas for further negotiations? That is not bargaining in good faith.

 

[luv2fly]

Nindiri,

I think you are confusing yourself. The AT MC already agreed to a deal. The MEC, who by the way directs the MC, decided to vote no. So who is negotiating in bad faith?

 

[obadie]

Nindri your misinformed!

Yes, they definitely promised a staple or near-staple. It's not exactly a secret, it's been in the news and was even discussed on the SWA pilots' own message board.

I don't understand why SWAPA made that promise. Surely they knew that SWA pilots would expect them to follow through with it.

Your obviously a Troll. Your above statement is completely FALSE!

 

[Fubijaakr]

Nindiri,

I think you are confusing yourself. The AT MC already agreed to a deal. The MEC, who by the way directs the MC, decided to vote no. So who is negotiating in bad faith?

Again, someone who has NO idea of how NC/MC/MEC relationships in negotiations work.

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

 

[Nindiri]

Sorry, obadie, but the staple promise is an established fact. That's why the junior SWA pilots were so angry that the proposed SLI was not a complete staple. You can read about it on your own SWA pilots' message board.

 

[luv2fly]

Really, that is your response? You must be in complete utopia!

 

[luv2fly]

Sorry, obadie, but the staple promise is an established fact. That's why the junior SWA pilots were so angry that the proposed SLI was a complete staple. You can read about it on your own SWA pilots' message board.

False. Prove it.

 

[Nindiri]

Prove what? That the radical SWA FO's were not happy with the SLI? That's pretty easy, just look back at all the posts complaining about it being too generous to AT pilots.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

Among others, that was just a couple of days ago, CaptWidgeon. If SWAPA is "really" not going to negotiate, why did they invite the AT team back to Dallas for further negotiations? That is not bargaining in good faith.

In light of the email sent by Linden and the comments surfacing on this thread, I'll repeat here my post on another thread stating comments made by MC and MEC members during the Paschal's meeting yesterday (Look at item 2):

my comments will be in red. i'm sure you've seen this before.

Well, I'll offer my 2 cents as to the Paschal's meeting yesterday:

Linden, Todd, Frank Early and even ALPA National President Capt. Lee Moak made a brief appearance.

These comments are what I was able to gather from being there quite a while. (Don't shoot the messenger)

1. Frank asked everyone to stay relaxed and remember that SL9 and the AIP are behind us. Moving forward, they have our feel for what we want and Attorney Katz is working on converting them to legal terms. Because of legal purposes, he could not disclose anything else on this.

2. They (MC) will not accept a negotiated settlement unless it provides significant improvements in pure seniority (no letters, no protections, no conditions, etc). Frank feels that the odds of that occurring are highly unlikely and we are on a continued course towards arbitration.
to me this looks like they aren't going in with the most open minds. can you bargain in faith with a closed mind?

3. Our MC/Attorneys declined to extend arbitration because "they are ready right now to continue". SW suggested extending the arbitration process by up to 3 additional months because they don't think they'll be able to achieve SOC at the original time-frame.
in my opinion this is an opportunity to bargain for a few more months, you know, let's see if we can't do something. mc/atty's, naw, we want "right now". not really team players here.

4. Interestingly enough was that Frank mentioned that at the beginning of this week there was very little interest in SWAPA wanting to meet again before mediation began. After GK met with SWAPA earlier this week they made a 180 and now want to meet again with our MC and "talk". Frank thinks that it's something GK might have said to them. As they requested, our MC is headed back there again on Tuesday to meet with SW/SWAPA.
we do realize mr kelly holds the check book. i have noooo idea what he told swapa. granted, they apparently didn't want to talk anymore either, until the boss man, who has been instrumental all along the way here, said something. bottom line, looks like swapa was willing to at least 'talk', more than aai was willing to do.

5. Contrary to beliefs on the line, Frank said that the communications channels are quite open and they really do have good communications with SWA management. He said that SWA management are well aware of our hard work and warrior spirit. They know we embrace the SWA culture.

6. Integration continues and there are NO actions taking place to make them believe that it will not happen. He said that one big RED FLAG to look for would be if SWA retires their SOC request to the FAA and of course, there's no indication at all of this.
except mr kelly did say he may not get it in the original time frame. might mean something, then again maybe not.

7. Another remark made was that the only other problem that could exist was that the arbitrated list would be so great (he used the word "Home Run") for us that SWAPA could not swallow it and that GK would not be able to convince them by throwing $$ into the pot for them and thereby seriously affecting their culture. Frank didn't think that the arbitrated list would be so amazing for us to put us in that position.
hope frank's crystal ball is working good, there's a lot on the line here to be guessing about this.

8. Capt Moak briefly spoke to us and told us that ALPA National would give us their full support and then answered some questions.

9. Linden said that whether you were for or against the proposed SLI that NOW was the time for all of us to unite and move forward to end this process. He said that SWAPA was united and so should we from now on.

Yes, I'd say unofficially that there were well over 200 guys show up over all.

I left the meeting feeling very good about our odds and truly hope the answers I received there are manifested into hard action.

Oy yes, Frank did offer a hug to whoever needed one ! (LOL)

Again, these are not my opinions but a recount of the comments I heard said yesterday.


- J.C. Feliciano

my opinion, what i take out of this info from the aai alpa meeting, at least swapa was willing to talk, mc/atty's said no. i guess if you're not at the table you can't have bad faith.

 

[luv2fly]

Prove what? That the radical SWA FO's were not happy with the SLI? That's pretty easy, just look back at all the posts complaining about it being too generous to AT pilots.

No, prove what you asserted.

 

[Empennage]

Sorry, obadie, but the staple promise is an established fact. That's why the junior SWA pilots were so angry that the proposed SLI was not a complete staple. You can read about it on your own SWA pilots' message board.

What do you continue to call it a staple when it was not. I will admit it's a moot point, but you need to be more honest and forthright.

The drama created by emotional statements are misleading, factually incorrect and frankly Immature.

If I need to define a staple, I will be more than happy to. I'm giving you more respect than that and the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Nindiri]

CaptWidgeon, I think your argument here needs to be with your own SWA pilots. I'm simply repeating what they posted about SWAPA having no intentions of really negotiating even though they invited the AT team back to Dallas ostensibly for that purpose. If you disagree, you need to talk to them, not me.

More importantly, your above post is in poor taste. You should not be posting actual names of anonymous members here.

 

[luv2fly]

Nindiri,

You are ignoring any question you cannot spin. Very poor!

 

[Nindiri]

What do you continue to call it a staple when it was not. I will admit it's a moot point, but you need to be more honest and forthright.

The drama created by emotional statements are misleading, factually incorrect and frankly Immature.

If I need to define a staple, I will be more than happy to. I'm giving you more respect than that and the benefit of the doubt.

I think you misunderstand me. I am in no way suggesting that trying to negotiate a staple was unethical or dishonest; if that was what SWAPA wanted to negotiate, that is their right. But I confess that I am surprised that they would openly promise a staple to their pilots and stir them up in support of it, with such a poor chance of actually achieving it. Now, having promised a staple or near-staple and being unable to deliver, they have backed themselves into a corner and have to deal with their own angry pilots who understandably want to know why SWAPA did not deliver on the promise.

 

[luv2fly]

Once again, ignoring the questions that point out the spin, while spinning the agenda!

Poor form!

 

[Nindiri]

Spinning the agenda?

No, I don't think so. I am simply answering questions as they come to me, and asking a few of my own. And, I might add, without resorting to invective or name-calling, unlike some of the more radical SWA members here and their crude sycophants like Andy.

 

[texman]

I think you misunderstand me. I am in no way suggesting that trying to negotiate a staple was unethical or dishonest; if that was what SWAPA wanted to negotiate, that is their right. But I confess that I am surprised that they would openly promise a staple to their pilots and stir them up in support of it, with such a poor chance of actually achieving it. Now, having promised a staple or near-staple and being unable to deliver, they have backed themselves into a corner and have to deal with their own angry pilots who understandably want to know why SWAPA did not deliver on the promise.

My friend you are wrong in your thoughts. SWAPA and AT MC have all the data that supports or did support the SL9. I think this is all strategy ( both sides ) that will play out via the PA.

 

[obadie]

Sorry, obadie, but the staple promise is an established fact. That's why the junior SWA pilots were so angry that the proposed SLI was not a complete staple. You can read about it on your own SWA pilots' message board.

Like I said it's false. Why would you believe anything off this forum or any other forum. I've read every email from our union and not one stated a staple. Don't confuse emotion with facts.


Show me this "established fact"....just because a anonymous poster says so that's not fact.

 

[luv2fly]

Spinning the agenda?

No, I don't think so. I am simply answering questions as they come to me, and asking a few of my own. And, I might add, without resorting to invective or name-calling, unlike some of the more radical SWA members here and their crude sycophants like Andy.

Hypocrite, and you are still dodging every question you can't spin into an anti-SWAPA agenda.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

CaptWidgeon, I think your argument here needs to be with your own SWA pilots. I'm simply repeating what they posted about SWAPA having no intentions of really negotiating even though they invited the AT team back to Dallas ostensibly for that purpose. If you disagree, you need to talk to them, not me.

More importantly, your above post is in poor taste. You should not be posting actual names of anonymous members here.

in any organization you're going to have your 2, or 5 or 10%'s, who you listen to to make your point makes a difference. did we have a few say a staple was the only way, not gonna say it didn't happen, but to paint swapa's/all swa pilots, or more importantly our negotiating committee, with the brush that this is what we went into negotiations with is disingenuous. i'm sure there is an aai pilot who thinks your number one should be the combined number 2, or heck, number 1 even, but i wouldn't then say aai pilots all have that opinion, much less that's what the NC went in looking for. but that's just me. the info above, that comes from those who are at the table. at least our BoD was willing to let us take part in the system, thanks to alpa none of us get to help direct our future.

or does it. you are familiar with our sl8?

and as far as outing anyone, i honestly have no idea if any of the above people are on this forum. we have a thread with the name of our union pres in it, is that in bad taste? i don't think so. now, if you say john doe, aka pilot joe on fi, that's different.