SWA culture!

[texman]

Out of fairness I'll say that the career of the Airtran pilot should NOT be decreased by this deal either.

Gup

Thats the problem with this whole FI debate bullshyt. Decreased/increased what is the middle of the road. WE ALL ON FI DON'T HAVE THE FACTS! WE ALL NEED TO PUT THE PIPE DOWN! OUR NC'S AND MC'S DO!

 

[texman]

Then why waste transition language on it if you feel so strongly about it?

Your going to have to LIVE it to believe me. The last guy on our list probably feels more secure then a dude 500 up on UALs (insert any airline here) list.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the guy 500 numbers up on our list is close to a third of the way up. You'd have to ask him if he feels more secure or not. I'd have to believe that he'd rather be a third of the way up our list than the bottom of your list.

[/QUOTE]Please Stop sounding like an idiot. YOU WANT SWAPA's CONTRACT. SWAPA got that for its members. It didn't come free, it wasn't a handout from Southwest. We spent millions on our section ONE alone. This very section that is protecting us (SWAPA) Pilots. We got rid of Skywest, right? Southwest, GK can't even paint the airplanes without our agreement. They were in violation of our contract by having an Air Tran sticker on the nose of our airplane on May 2. This is a great contract.[/QUOTE]

Yelling at me in all caps doesn't make me understand it any better. I don't have to have SWAPA's contract, don't tell me I want it. I KNOW IT'S NOT WORTH GIVING UP SIGNIFICANT RELATIVE SENIORITY FOR. Does the caps help enforce the point?

[/QUOTE]There is tons of mutual respect between SWA and SWAPA. This will benefit you. Why don't you all just give in a bit and say "I want to be a SWAPA Pilot" it would really go a long way.[/QUOTE]

There in lies the problem, "a bit" has a very different connotation between groups. I'm sure "a bit" is much smaller to me than it is to you. Kind of like a marshaller with his wands 3" from each other for 3'. That's a long 3" .

[/QUOTE]Claiming that SWAPA had nothing to do with where we are now it just a huge slap in the face and I find it insulting, which makes me want to insult you further.... then I grind my teeth at night and its not good.

All I am saying is, this is not a done deal. You guys (we are driving this thing) have a lot to lose. Don't over play your hand. :beer:[/QUOTE]

If it wasn't for your mgmt, it wouldn't matter what the letters stood for in the acronym of your union because you'd be in the same boat as the rest of us, period, end of story. I'm confident in my MC and not concerned in the least about overplaying our hand. I'm not losing any sleep at night.[/QUOTE]

lUV,

I have to say this. Do you know who started SWAPA, or requested it to happen? Do you know who helped the company make money in relationship to trip rigs and what person got fired from that (in mgt). Do you understand the sacrifice the 3 and 4 digits guy's made to make this airline what it is today? You don't know the working relationship we have with mgt? It is tight brother. I worry about your personality. the reason why is because I smell kiss azz. Thats not how we roll at SWA. We work as a team.

WE work together! Trust me. It's called success sharing.

 

[jonjuan]

Please Stop sounding like an idiot. YOU WANT SWAPA's CONTRACT. SWAPA got that for its members. It didn't come free, it wasn't a handout from Southwest. We spent millions on our section ONE alone. This very section that is protecting us (SWAPA) Pilots. We got rid of Skywest, right?
Claiming that SWAPA had nothing to do with where we are now it just a huge slap in the face and I find it insulting, which makes me want to insult you further.... then I grind my teeth at night and its not good.

Speaking of idiot. Herbs vision gave you your contract. Period. Quit thinking you were largely influential in it. Sure, you were a partner, however if Herb or GK decided they wanted to change tactics and line their pockets, you, like ALPA, would have had little say.
You got lucky-good on ya, but don't think for a second that you are any better than anyone else in the industry.

 

[scoreboardII]

I don't for a minute think anyone says SWA is better, it's just being proud of what they have now. What do they have? A contract which dollar for dollar over the years has grown at inflation pace to keep the exact same relative pay today that SWA pilots had in 1973. In other words, an hourly rate today of $211 was $38 in 1971. That shows you how crappy this industry has been for decades.

 

[jonjuan]

I don't for a minute think anyone says SWA is better, it's just being proud of what they have now. What do they have? A contract which dollar for dollar over the years has grown at inflation pace to keep the exact same relative pay today that SWA pilots had in 1973. That shows you how crappy this industry has been for decades.

Most rational post I have seen on the subject to date. Great to be proud of the company which allowed you all this. However, it's the business model which allowed the growth and profits. As part and parcel, I have heard here that swapa specifically didn't allow the company to outsource, aka regional jets, however, it was never part of their point to point model as it was with the major model of hub- based flying.
SWA has created the environment for its pilots to gain significant contract improvements. Great for the industry. Gary, however, has decided to forego organic growth to gain a significant foothold in Atlanta, the Caribbean, and New York. He saw and still sees the upside outweighing the downside, even when he he figured there would be a hard fought SLI. He saw his future at coworkers as SWA co- workers, otherwise he would not have pulled the trigger.

 

[Dan Roman]

I don't for a minute think anyone says SWA is better, it's just being proud of what they have now. What do they have? A contract which dollar for dollar over the years has grown at inflation pace to keep the exact same relative pay today that SWA pilots had in 1973. In other words, an hourly rate today of $211 was $38 in 1971. That shows you how crappy this industry has been for decades.

True statement there. Interesting to note that when ALPA (UAL DAL etc.) attained the pay rates they did in the 90's some raised eyebrows, but in fact they were not even keeping up with inflation. Back than a SWA pilot was way below a UAL pilot in compensation (although not as far behind as in 1973) but now they have kind of followed the turtle and hare scenario, slow steady progress.
Had the industry not been hit by the perfect storm of 2001 airline pilot pay would be a lot better and tickets would just be a little higher (or more realistically management bonus's less) but air travel would still be a bargain.

 

[Dan Roman]

Fubi-
No one is saying we are better aviators - we are saying that we have the better, more difficult to get, JOB.
A LOT of people didn't have the money for the type, including me. Hell, I didn't have the money for flight school! But I figured it out bc I really wanted to be here. (and still do and consider that sacrifice the best investment I ever made)
Your statement highlights just 1 of the additional sacrifices Swapa pilots made to get the job. IMO, that's relevant.
Back in the day, you weren't willing to scrap, save, beg, or rearrange your finances for $8k - and took the job that didn't need it. IMO- that's a choice you can live with, but ought not be rewarded.

Wave, using your line of reasoning here would be like saying if two regionals merged and one was a pay for training outfit, the PFT airline should get preferential treatment in a merger because it was more difficult to attain the job?? The PFT pilots shelled out thousands so it should be rewarded?

 

[Dan Roman]

We = All Air Tran Pilots minus Ty Webb and PCL.

The day I interviewed at Southwest there were 12 in my group, they only hired 2. The day I interviewed at Air Tran (@ Air Inc.) there were 6 of us, they hired 5.

All that says is AirTran does a better job of prescreening potential candidates. I hope you don't think that the 2 hired were "better" than the 10 they turned away. Interviewing is a crapshoot, not an indication of the best guy wins. We have all been around this business long enough to be aware of that.
Grasping for straws there dude! If you somehow think your analogy proves some sort of SWA superiority we might have a clue to some of the SWA narcissism being exhibited on here.

 

[waveflyer]

Wave, using your line of reasoning here would be like saying if two regionals merged and one was a pay for training outfit, the PFT airline should get preferential treatment in a merger because it was more difficult to attain the job?? The PFT pilots shelled out thousands so it should be rewarded?

Seriously Dan?
The old PFT schtick - there's no anology in the 90's regionals- now I'm pretty sure you're stealing food off ScopeoutRJs plate by stealing his bit. The truth is, SWA is and always has been a more difficult and time consuming job to attain- especially in the 10 years since 9/11. I argue that this is relevant in a SLI debate bc it takes years longer to meet the competitive mins- you can disagree on that if you like- but that particular argument's just flame. Welcome to troll status.

 

[SWA/FO]

Funny, they just don't believe anything. They forget how hard it was for them to get a "decent" contract from Tranny management, but our contract was just handed to us by Herb.... Their mighty ALPA took a strike vote to show their management they meant business. Since we got better results and a better contact, now it was just given to us, funny.

We got an FO at 87% on the tranny list, actually pressing the test button. His career earnings just went up by 2,000,000 and he still wants more, he wants all those SWA guys below him. Unreal, ungrateful and sad.

There is a real culture here at Southwest and some of you will never "get it".

 

[slaquer5]

Wave, using your line of reasoning here would be like saying if two regionals merged and one was a pay for training outfit, the PFT airline should get preferential treatment in a merger because it was more difficult to attain the job?? The PFT pilots shelled out thousands so it should be rewarded?

Dan just how bad do you hate SWA?. FYI getting a 737 type does not get someone a job at SWA. But hay enjoy what you seem to do every waking moment ( slam and hate on SWA )

Get out there is a lot to see and do.

 

[sfomarc]

I received my type from a previous airline but you are right, SWA is a PFT.

They paid ME while I was in Training.

 

[Tripower455]

Wow, now we've come full circle..... Back to the PFT idiocy....... Ask PCL about really PAYING FOR TRAINING, then ask any SW guy about it and compare experiences. I'll give you a hint. One empties tens of thousands of dollars OUT of your bank account. The other puts hundreds of thousands INTO it.

All we need now is for the virtual pilots, OYSterGLEEk to chime in on how bad it is do LBB layovers, and the thread can be locked, as all of the FI circle jerk arguments will be covered by one thread!

Great job!

 

[SWA/FO]

They paid ME while I was in Training.

Southwest paid me while I was in training too!

 

[MILF Hunter]

Therein lies the million dollar question. What is the magic equation that will give a reasonble outcome for current WN pilots while doing as little damage to the FL pilots seniority wise (contract and pay withstanding).

It is interesting to note that the well verbalized concerns of some WN posters places so much emphasis on seniority, when other WN posters try to tell the FL guys that seniority and seat don't matter, it's all about the pay and contract.

You seem unwilling to acknowledge the link between seniority and career earnings expectations. For ATN pilots, your career earnings will increase dramatically regardless of your seniority. For SWA pilots, numerous seniority models will decrease our career earnings expectations. How you can think it's fair for some ATN pilots to earn an additional 1-2 million over their career while some SWA pilots take a loss is concerning.

It's not about beating the ATN pilots, its simply about protecting the career value of our pilots. It hardly seems unfair to protect our value while increasing yours.

 

[jonjuan]

You seem unwilling to acknowledge the link between seniority and career earnings expectations. For ATN pilots, your career earnings will increase dramatically regardless of your seniority. For SWA pilots, numerous seniority models will decrease our career earnings expectations. How you can think it's fair for some ATN pilots to earn an additional 1-2 million over their career while some SWA pilots take a loss is concerning.

It's not about beating the ATN pilots, its simply about protecting the career value of our pilots. It hardly seems unfair to protect our value while increasing yours.

Gimme a break. You really are concerned about retiring #10 vs. # 410?

 

[Dash Power]

It's not about beating the ATN pilots, its simply about protecting the career value of our pilots. It hardly seems unfair to protect our value while increasing yours.

A straight relative seniority or DOH integration does not protect the career value of all of the SWA pilots.

This is a very reasonable (not greedy) concern.

 

[scarlet]

How are SWA pilots taking a loss in pay? Nothing is going to change- you will come to work, work your 3 day/ 4 day and go home. I DO NOT understand Pilots mad at other Pilots? Did they ask you about buying Airtran? didn't ask me? DO they CARE what YOU think=NO NO !! Everyone try to start to think positive, what will SWA look like in 2015-2017 International? Hawaii? Larger aircraft? More bases?

SWA Senior FOs will upgrade in 2011,2012,2013 with the purchase of Airtran. Thanks for the Airtran's order of 50 737s.

No purchase of Airtran and when would you upgrade?? WHEN? Only replacement aircraft orders, for the aging 300-500s. maybe 2013 2014 with retirements??

SWA gets the WORLDS busiest airport, Intl routes= means MORE $ bigger Profit Sharing=$

I see alot of positives for everyone.

 

[scarlet]

career value?

 

[GoodTimes]

JJ,

Retiring #410 vs. #10 is, indeed, a decrease in career expectations that impacts the SWA pilot for years leading up to retirement. Take the emotion out of it. It's quantifiable. Your list is younger and ours has more retirements. That needs to be addressed.