SWA culture!

[Lear70]

Something that won't push my upgrade to never in a no growth environment. Something that won't change my list percentage at retirement.

That's reasonable enough; none of our guys want to HURT your career expectations.

Something that won't hit me in the paycheck and QOL in the form of decreased relative seniority as my career progresses because of the demographic differances berween the two pilot groups.

Our average age of about half our CA's is possibly an issue in that demographic, but not amongst your F/O's. The majority of our F/O's are in their mid-30's to early 40's, just like the majority of yours. The difference is that *SOME* of our CA's have upgraded 5-7 years before some of your CA's. I suspect that besides those junior CA's of ours, the junior half of both our F/O lists has a very similar age demographic.

Fair and equitable cuts both ways. I don't expect to gain here but I do expect not to lose.

That's fair enough, and I have no problem with that. I don't want you guys to lose anything; that would certainly NOT be fair to your pilots. We recognize, however, that upgrades and hiring are already increasing on your side of the fence from what they were expected to pre-merger because of the growth WE were getting that is now coming to you. That needs to be taken into account as well

That's why I think this thing will get split 7 ways from Sunday, each small portion of the list demographic being broken down and handled differently than the rest of it, not just a simple ratio. There's too many clusters of age and years of service left before retirement, relative bidding position, upgrade expectation, etc, etc, to make an easy ratio fair all the way down.

 

[tico]

Maybe I should just send in my SWAPA card and try to become a non-union Southwest employee after you put it like that. What were we thinking unionizing!

Red, I think I failed to communicate effectively....dont turn in your swapa card....put another way...had the ceo of airtran gone to the pilot group and expressed his desire to craft documents that would make secure their future such that any aquiring entity would be bound by them during the aquisition....had the airtran group had the benefit of a corporate culture that put them first, this entire process would be much different. My interest in this whole process is simply that at Alaska, I work for the same type of sleazy, shareholder/corporate officer compensation first, passenger safety and convenience second and employee,to heck with employees lets outsource corporate structure that the airtran pilots work for...all of swapa's efforts would never produce in the toxic, greedy anti-employee environement that we work in...I do know this..Gary will be counting on, maybe demanding swapa's leadership, when this is all over, in demonstrating to all of his new employees what it means to be part of the southwest family. He will not allow one day of the hired vs aquired attitude....fair skies and following seas my friend...

 

[redflyer65]

Red, I think I failed to communicate effectively....dont turn in your swapa card....put another way...had the ceo of airtran gone to the pilot group and expressed his desire to craft documents that would make secure their future such that any aquiring entity would be bound by them during the aquisition....had the airtran group had the benefit of a corporate culture that put them first, this entire process would be much different. My interest in this whole process is simply that at Alaska, I work for the same type of sleazy, shareholder/corporate officer compensation first, passenger safety and convenience second and employee,to heck with employees lets outsource corporate structure that the airtran pilots work for...all of swapa's efforts would never produce in the toxic, greedy anti-employee environement that we work in...I do know this..Gary will be counting on, maybe demanding swapa's leadership, when this is all over, in demonstrating to all of his new employees what it means to be part of the southwest family. He will not allow one day of the hired vs aquired attitude....fair skies and following seas my friend...

I agree it is a completely different working relationship than I've ever seen before. We do have our issues, but in the big scheme of things it is mostly minor compared to other carriers. Hopefully that continues. Cheers.

 

[SWA/FO]

Hey Lear what does your Father think of this whole SWA/AT thing? What advice has he given you?

 

[freightdogfred]

Something that won't push my upgrade to never in a no growth environment. Something that won't change my list percentage at retirement. Something that won't hit me in the paycheck and QOL in the form of decreased relative seniority as my career progresses because of the demographic differances berween the two pilot groups. Fair and equitable cuts both ways. I don't expect to gain here but I do expect not to lose.

Cool. You should be quite happy with relative seniority then, as it's been pointed out that the demographic of the FO list is quite similar.

 

[Flycatcher99]

We recognize, however, that upgrades and hiring are already increasing on your side of the fence from what they were expected to pre-merger because of the growth WE were getting that is now coming to you. That needs to be taken into account as well.

What are you talking about?

SWA is not upgrading or hiring hardly any, and the few that have been hired/upgraded are due to seasonal increases, as well as recovery of flying that they had reduced in the recession. We haven't done any manning changes as a result of the acquisition. And there is no guarantee that we will.

 

[Ty Webb]

What are you talking about?

SWA is not upgrading or hiring hardly any, and the few that have been hired/upgraded are due to seasonal increases, as well as recovery of flying that they had reduced in the recession. We haven't done any manning changes as a result of the acquisition. And there is no guarantee that we will.

Ah, so the sudden hiring at SWA for the first time since 2008 has nothing to do with taking our delivery slots, huh? :erm:

You could at least be gracious, and say "thank you" to our FO's who were planning to upgrade on those jets, or perhaps get off reserve. :laugh:

 

[SWA/FO]

Oh, so the sudden hiring of several hundred pilots has nothing to do with taking our delivery slots, or filling in for our crew members as we go through 30+ days of required training apiece, huh? :erm:

Get over yourself Ty.... it has to do with you, its about more vacation time.

When you fools go into training to become FOs, they are going to take 2 - 737s out of service a month so we can paint and make them look like SWA birds. They'll probably will still be ugly and have AT at the end of the tail number, there is no helping ugly.

:cartman:

 

[Ty Webb]

You're actually pretty funny, as long as I remember not to take you seriously.

Happy 4th, you oxygen thief. :laugh:

 

[Flycatcher99]

Ah, so the sudden hiring at SWA for the first time since 2008 has nothing to do with taking our delivery slots, huh? :erm:

You could at least be gracious, and say "thank you" to our FO's who were planning to upgrade on those jets, or perhaps get off reserve. :laugh:

Wow. Your delusions know no bounds.

Did you read my entire post? We are not upgrading. We recalled a handful of captains. We hired just enough to drain the two year pool. We did those things because we are short now. Not later. NOW. How could that have anything to do with air tran? You say we have your delivery slots. Then why is SWA's fleet not increasing in size? You are aware we are retiring 300's, right?

Your delusions of grandeur are truly remarkable.

 

[waveflyer]

Thats one reason why people choose a smaller carrier. Most just have the job they got- but for some it's an ego thing. When youre a big fish in a small pond, you can indulge those delusions of grandeur and none of your day to day experiences interfere with it.

It's why some stay on as a regional check airman even when they can earn more as a major FO. Ive even seen flight instructors who stay as that for that reason. Clear as day the motivation. They just can't go from being the guy giving the instruction to receiving it. Or just being a normal line pilot. For some it's not the actual benefits of being senior- it's the ego of saying 'look at me and my schedule. I'm senior. I'm important. They need that validation. For some, this is the issue driving the discontent and desire for aggressive bargaining- they don't want to be an average line fish in a really big lake.
Funny how that fear thing crops up again-

 

[redflyer65]

You could at least be gracious, and say "thank you" to our FO's who were planning to upgrade on those jets, or perhaps get off reserve. :laugh:

Since 2008, Southwest has had ZERO growth. What part of zero don't you understand? Who should I thank for that?

I guess it's true, Ty's pond just got a little bit bigger by the count of 6000 pilots. No wonder his pissed.

 

[Lear70]

Hey Lear what does your Father think of this whole SWA/AT thing? What advice has he given you?

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but he just hopes the whole thing goes smoothly after watching what has happened with USAir/AWA (which he's disgusted with by the way). Binding arbitration should be... well... binding. Even if you don't like the outcome.

 

[Lear70]

Did you read my entire post? We are not upgrading. We recalled a handful of captains. We hired just enough to drain the two year pool. We did those things because we are short now. Not later. NOW. How could that have anything to do with air tran? You say we have your delivery slots. Then why is SWA's fleet not increasing in size? You are aware we are retiring 300's, right?

Which SPECIFIC -300 hull numbers did you retire in the last 90 days while you took your most recent -700 deliveries which were coming here before the announcement?

Last I heard, the initial INTENT was to replace your -300's with the -700 delivery slots you had PRE-merger announcement, but that the additional deliveries you're getting won't accelerate the retirement of your -300's, meaning all the -700 slots you're getting of ours are growth slots.

If you have the hull numbers that have been sent to the desert since March, I'll stand corrected, but from what we've heard, none of your -300's have been parked since you took delivery of our -700's.

 

[SWA/FO]

If you have the hull numbers that have been sent to the desert since March, I'll stand corrected, but from what we've heard, none of your -300's have been parked since you took delivery of our -700's.

We took delivery of OUR -700s.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but he just hopes the whole thing goes smoothly after watching what has happened with USAir/AWA (which he's disgusted with by the way). Binding arbitration should be... well... binding. Even if you don't like the outcome.

So he is a Westie? I thought, he was East.

 

[St. Nic]

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but he just hopes the whole thing goes smoothly after watching what has happened with USAir/AWA (which he's disgusted with by the way). Binding arbitration should be... well... binding. Even if you don't like the outcome.

A reasoned man would see the flaw with your argument if the outcome of binding arbitration is flawed.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Get over yourself Ty.... it has to do with you, its about more vacation time.

When you fools go into training to become FOs, they are going to take 2 - 737s out of service a month so we can paint and make them look like SWA birds. They'll probably will still be ugly and have AT at the end of the tail number, there is no helping ugly.

:cartman:

"When you fools go to training...."

Wow. Really feeling the Luv now. Could you be any more condescending?

 

[XRMEFLYER]

When I retire I'll be around number 100. If you put 400 guys above me, mostly younger than me , when I retire I'll be around number 500 instead of number 100. So, yes, I will be harmed. That's just me personally, compound that problem for the FO's. Sorry, DOH is a non-starter and Relative is dreamland.

Well if that is the consensus around there then we will see you in court. Just for curiosities sake, you laid out for us what we should not expect out of this would you be good enough to share with us your vision of what we can expect?

 

[Lear70]

We took delivery of OUR -700s.

LOL - mkay... if that's the way you want to play it.

So he is a Westie? I thought, he was East.

No, he's an Eastie. He just has a sense of honor and ethics.

You don't agree to binding arbitration unless you're willing to live with the outcome, even if you don't like it.

 

[Lear70]

A reasoned man would see the flaw with your argument if the outcome of binding arbitration is flawed.

No, that's what someone with a poor sense of ethics does. Reason their way out of an agreement they don't like.

Part of what's wrong with this country, but I digress,,,