Spirit closing DTW pilot base

[lionflyer]

You guys really think flight ops runs the airline? I would guess many of these unpopular decisions are made above his level. I know that flight ops has very little control over scheduling but people think everyone is out to get them. Marketing and Maintenance both have priority when they develop flight schedules.

Its not easy to be a popular DO, expecially during negotiations.

They are made above that level. That unpopular decision was made for political union busting reasons only because what better way to make the pilots lives helll than to make commuters out of all of them. I'm glad it backfired. I'm one of the 30 that refused to put up with that BS. I wish the best for the pilots at Spirit but I'm not sure of the companies long term future.

 

[Beetle007]

I've experienced a lot harsher negotiations at previous airlines (e.g., NWA). Many airlines now have contracts that are below Spirit it terms of total compensation and work rules.

 

[castle bravo]

" I've had my share of idiot D.O.'s but JC takes the cake."

What do you expect from former NWA mgmt?

 

[castle bravo]

"I've experienced a lot harsher negotiations at previous airlines (e.g., NWA). Many airlines now have contracts that are below Spirit it terms of total compensation and work rules".

We'll see what the next contract brings in terms of total compensation and QOL. Pref bid will likely be on the table.

 

[Beetle007]

We'll see what the next contract brings in terms of total compensation and QOL. Pref bid will likely be on the table.

I agree. I like our current contract and love option 1 and 2.

 

[Gearthrower]

Do you honestly think these pig lovers could be trusted with a program than runs our whole life like pref-bidding. Not!!!! it take at least six passwords to check my schedule and look at my pay stub an bid. We have not changed or written one pairing in the six going on seven years I have been here and we are considering pref-bidding, noway. Another reasons it
won't work, they want our 4 days between trips. If you take my four days between trips I will hunt you down personally to show you the error of your ways; many long time spirit guys feel this way and new guys aswell. if the union puts somthing forth for the pilots to vote on that includes this its a not starter. Maybe when the company demonstrate consistent contract interpretations, let us write pairings in conjunction with planning, and have one login page that allows me to bid, check my schedule and look at my company email and do all the things that every other airline pilot has been able to do since the internet started then we will talk, but until then they can pack-sand. uke:

 

[Beetle007]

And those 6 passwords (I counted 7 for me) require that you they be changed every so often and can't be the same as a previous password =)

 

[castle bravo]

" Another reasons it
won't work, they want our 4 days between trips. If you take my four days between trips I will hunt you down personally to show you the error of your ways";

Which is exactly my point. The company hates the 4 days off between trips under the current contract. They also hate the month end transition conflicts (option 1,2,or 3), training conflicts, and the excellent vacation conflict situation currently in place. All of these would disappear with pref bid- much to the delight of Miramar ($$$$). $atellite bases are something the company wants as well- for similar reasons. Time will tell what the NC presents the pilot group with...

We will have to re-evaluate what the total compensation and QOL looks like with the implementation of the next contract- hopefully the rank and file will actually be given the opportunity of membership ratification on it!

 

[castle bravo]

" Maybe when the company demonstrate consistent contract interpretations, "


But the company does demonstrate consistent contract interpretation- It's always in favor of Miramar with you left using your own personal time to try (via voice mail, of course) to rectify the discrepancy.

 

[Gearthrower]

Apathy is what they count on most to get their way that is why we must fight every little violation because it is the slippery slope. Let one thing slide by next time it will be a whole section of the contract they let slide.

 

[Beetle007]

Apathy is what they count on most to get their way that is why we must fight every little violation because it is the slippery slope. Let one thing slide by next time it will be a whole section of the contract they let slide.

They already took away the 5 days off. Our contract doesn't seem to even guarantee 4 days off. It just says to the maximum extent possible (same language as the 5 days off). Poor wording in the contract if you ask me.

This will be a rough year as as we go tit for tat with the company.

 

[Gearthrower]

I totally disagree with your last statement on the 4 days off it specifically states and I quote,"No less than 4 days off in Domicile accept during the transition. So no they can not just take that it would be a slam dunk in arbitration if it ever went that far. The squishy language is in the 5 days off section but it is really only squishy if you are a Dirt Bag airline managment.

 

[Beetle007]

On what page in the contract where you reading? I was reading page 25-3 to 25-4. The words "In lieu of the above, to the maximum extent possible" proceed the statement about 4 days off. Is it also in a different section of our contract?

I hope I am wrong (as I am a commuter) and love the 4/5 days off.

 

[Gearthrower]

In lieu of the above, to the maximum extent
possible, no less than four (4) consecutive days off in domicile,

The first part of the section states the standard is 5 days between pairings, but there will never be or "No Less than 4 days off between pairings" This is very clear and there is substantial bargaining history that would support this interpretation.​

 

[castle bravo]

Actually, 25.B.3.g.5 states....Regular lines ...."To the maximum extent possible, blocks of five (5) consecutive days off in domicile. In lieu of the above, to the maximum extent possible, no less than four (4) consecutive days off in domicile, except regular lines may contain blocks of less than four (4) consecutive days off in domicile on the first three and last three days of the month. Exceptions to multiple day-off blocks may occur with prior consultation of the Scheduling Committee Chairman."

 

[Beetle007]

It just seems like the words "to the maximum extent possible" really muddy the waters. It is easy to highlight the words that support your opinion, but the legal world reads the entire sentence.

Why do we let them consistently give us four days off when it clearly says "To the maximum extent possible, blocks of 5 consecutive days off in domicile"?

 

[Gearthrower]

I give dude after two contracts that have had the same language and numerous bid packages that have had nothing less than 4 days off between pairings and never once has the company successfully created a line that had less than 4 days off between pairings what more proof do you need. Historically, we have more then enough documentation to win just about any court case if they try and use your argument. There is nothing in the contract that says I have to come to work either. The first part of the sentence you continually reference is a conditional statement that references the previous that there will be no-less than 5 days off between pairings if they do not do that then there will be no less than 4 days off between pairings. End of story, Check Please, there is nothing to see here!

 

[Beetle007]

There is nothing in the contract that says I have to come to work either.

Page 2-1
"Check-In Time" means the time that a pilot is required to report for duty.

 

[Gearthrower]

What if I have vacation or sick, do I still have to come to work. Please, Beetle if you have been here for longer than two years you would not argue this section, why, because the company has never successfully violated it, because they do not want to force an arbitration that could posibly lead to them having to give us 5 days between pairings. And yes I know this to be true because I have worked in the union when the company has tried to violate this section and they always back down because they know that it is a very risky battle to fight and could ultimately back fire on them. When you write contract language it often is to your benefit to write squishy language, because it could be used to further your cause in later arbitration cases.

Example:

A pilot will report for a reserve assignment within 3 hours of notification under normal driving conditions.

A pilot will report for a reserve assignment within 3 hours of notification.

What language is better; The first is and why because, if you get stuck in traffice because you live 2 hrs from you domicile and can not make it to work for 3 1/2 hrs then this is the squishy language that you will use in your NOI to walk away without a mark on your record.

The same applies to what we are discussing; do you feel confident in your read on the language to violate the contract. Because I feel confident that I could win almost any case based on past practice on the companies part an past grivence settlements where they have agreed that this is an absolute.

 

[Beetle007]

Good point. If they try to get less than 4 they might get stuck with 5.

I'm guessing that is why we didn't fight them on the 5 issue (we could get stuck with less than 4).