SCOPE at DELTA

[Fly4hire]

Let's be realistic here guys. The LOA allowing this is probably already in the works. It will be signed before the union makes a statement just like the last one.

I have it on good authority they did not know in advance and learned about it shortly after it broke over on APC.

Given the sentiment, and that it would be political suicide to do another behind the scenes deal on Scope, I think this one will get a full airing with the MEC.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I have it on good authority they did not know in advance and learned about it shortly after it broke over on APC.

Given the sentiment, and that it would be political suicide to do another behind the scenes deal on Scope, I think this one will get a full airing with the MEC.

I really hope you are right. We need to be proactive and start filing grievances now to stop the process. I'd say this memo is proof of intent to blatantly break our contract. Even if nothing comes of it, it gives us a stronger case later.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

That is the point. We need to give the company and DCI notice that this mod is in direct violation of our contract. If they choose to go ahead with it, the damages we are given in arbitration will be greater than waiting for them to actually violate it.

 

[PuffDriver]

I have it on good authority they did not know in advance and learned about it shortly after it broke over on APC.

Given the sentiment, and that it would be political suicide to do another behind the scenes deal on Scope, I think this one will get a full airing with the MEC.

Just by being certified, those jets violate our scope clause. Letter has been mailed to the reps.

an excerpt:


Section 1 B. 40. d. jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats and certificated
in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less
(“76-seat jets”).

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly. I have sent one too. A few days ago our reps seemed to be completely taken by surprise by this.

 

[TAWS]

I just checked in to look at this thread, after 2 weeks of "swearing off" the BS at FI.

How ironic that 2 products of scope relief (Superpilot and PeanuckeCRJ) are the 2 cheerleaders of scope NOW!!

While I agree that scope is a major problem, I can't stand A$$kissers like these 2, suddenly pretending that they were born into the right seat at DAL.....(or wherever they are now).

Any of you guys that came from an RJ should probably STFU, as you guys were part of the problem prior to becoming a "Major Pilot". To all the others who have suffered and watched as their their careers were negatively impacted by scope creep, I apologize.

To all those such as SuperPilot and PeanuckleCRJ, get a F---ing life!!

Rant over.........................

 

[hockeypilot44]

I just checked in to look at this thread, after 2 weeks of "swearing off" the BS at FI.

How ironic that 2 products of scope relief (Superpilot and PeanuckeCRJ) are the 2 cheerleaders of scope NOW!!

While I agree that scope is a major problem, I can't stand A$$kissers like these 2, suddenly pretending that they were born into the right seat at DAL.....(or wherever they are now).

Any of you guys that came from an RJ should probably STFU, as you guys were part of the problem prior to becoming a "Major Pilot". To all the others who have suffered and watched as their their careers were negatively impacted by scope creep, I apologize.

To all those such as SuperPilot and PeanuckleCRJ, get a F---ing life!!

Rant over.........................

I have nothing but the utmost respect for most regional pilots. We are all pilots. I do not blame scope erosion on you. I am placing the blame on our unions. We need to make a stand. It would be nice if the IBT would step in and threaten Republic knowing that it is in violation of another union's contract. I know this will never happens. Unions are about collecting dues. The people running the unions are extremely overpaid for what they do, and they will not risk losing their cushy jobs for anything. Some unity would be nice though.

 

[Superpilot92]

I just checked in to look at this thread, after 2 weeks of "swearing off" the BS at FI.

How ironic that 2 products of scope relief (Superpilot and PeanuckeCRJ) are the 2 cheerleaders of scope NOW!!

While I agree that scope is a major problem, I can't stand A$$kissers like these 2, suddenly pretending that they were born into the right seat at DAL.....(or wherever they are now).

Any of you guys that came from an RJ should probably STFU, as you guys were part of the problem prior to becoming a "Major Pilot". To all the others who have suffered and watched as their their careers were negatively impacted by scope creep, I apologize.

To all those such as SuperPilot and PeanuckleCRJ, get a F---ing life!!

Rant over.........................

Hey D-Bag,

I have been a advocate of protecting scope even before i made the move over to mainline. The only difference is that now i can actually try to be part of the solution instead of talking about it from the sideline.

You just said you "admit its a major problem" but yet choose to bad mouth those that are trying to fix the problem. Would you prefer it be a "major problem" and no one do anything about it?

Whats the real underlying issue here? Are you just pissy that guys like he and i have moved on and you haven't yet? I mean, you yourself said you agree scope is an issue, so why attack us for trying to fix it?

Take care sweet cheeks

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

When I got hired at the regional we were limited to 44 seats on most of our CRJ's and a certain amount of 50's. I believed that to be the maximum appropriate to protect mainline jobs- although personal beliefs held that regionals should have been left to turboprops.... and before anyone comments, this was long before the realities of the Q400.

I harshly chastized anyone at my company who thought scope relief was a good idea to help Pinnacle fly "bigger planes." I promptly educated them that was their chance (and of course mine) of getting hired at a major getting flushed down the drain as larger regional jets get outsourced.

The trend of flying larger regional jets increased in bankruptcy, unfortunately. I saw all the 44 seaters get converted to 50s.

Now that I'm at a major and actually have a bit more of a say in all this crap, I'm trying to make a positive difference in this career and reverse the trend. (remember everyone on here blames the majors for the problem, how about being the solution?)

TAWS, would you rather be flying that 170/5 at a regional for 60 dollars an hour (30 for FO), or at a major for 100+ dollars an hour (65 or so for FO)?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

FWIW, my career and upgrade was not a product of scope relief, I was hired and upgraded under the much stricter scope of the NWA 1998 contract.

 

[Fly4hire]

I have nothing but the utmost respect for most regional pilots. We are all pilots. I do not blame scope erosion on you. I am placing the blame on our unions. We need to make a stand. It would be nice if the IBT would step in and threaten Republic knowing that it is in violation of another union's contract. I know this will never happens. Unions are about collecting dues. The people running the unions are extremely overpaid for what they do, and they will not risk losing their cushy jobs for anything. Some unity would be nice though.

Hockey, Nailed it. It's not the regional pilot starting out who takes advantage of the deal in front of them, but the attitude of royalty among senior mainline pilots who consider themselves too good to have little airplanes on the property.

Actually it's worse than that - they have and continue to consider themselves insulated from Scope outsourcing and are happy to bargain away the career of pilots junior to them to benefit or repair post BK contracts for themselves.

Your point on cushy union jobs is spot on. All the talk of we are the biggest dog in ALPA and can fix it is just talk. If Lee Moak is aspiring to Prater's job he also needs the votes of all the B1, 2, 3, & 4 Reps - he can't afford to be the avenging angel of Scope.

All I know if if we keep giving it away the best any junior or mid-grade pilot is going to aspire to is stagnation in their current position

Your best bet may be to leave and get an E175 or other large SJ provider job before their growth really takes off and they are flying our 150 seat lift.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

I just checked in to look at this thread, after 2 weeks of "swearing off" the BS at FI.

How ironic that 2 products of scope relief (Superpilot and PeanuckeCRJ) are the 2 cheerleaders of scope NOW!!

While I agree that scope is a major problem, I can't stand A$$kissers like these 2, suddenly pretending that they were born into the right seat at DAL.....(or wherever they are now).

Any of you guys that came from an RJ should probably STFU, as you guys were part of the problem prior to becoming a "Major Pilot". To all the others who have suffered and watched as their their careers were negatively impacted by scope creep, I apologize.

To all those such as SuperPilot and PeanuckleCRJ, get a F---ing life!!

Rant over.........................

My guess is DALPA is thinking the same too. Kind of like Hank Greenburg crusading against executive bonuses.

 

[Fly4hire]

My guess is DALPA is thinking the same too.

And that hubris on their part is exactly what has led us to where we are today - with DALPA at the bleeding edge of the weakest Scope in the industry since RJ's first flew.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Love your avatar, wish some would have.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Given the sentiment, and that it would be political suicide to do another behind the scenes deal on Scope, I think this one will get a full airing with the MEC.

They are already doing behind the scenes deals. They waived LOA 2006-10 with regard to ASA and Comair, they are working on divesting Compass. ....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Your point on cushy union jobs is spot on. All the talk of we are the biggest dog in ALPA and can fix it is just talk. If Lee Moak is aspiring to Prater's job he also needs the votes of all the B1, 2, 3, & 4 Reps - he can't afford to be the avenging angel of Scope.

All I know if if we keep giving it away the best any junior or mid-grade pilot is going to aspire to is stagnation in their current position

Your best bet may be to leave and get an E175 or other large SJ provider job before their growth really takes off and they are flying our 150 seat lift.

Fly, I only wish Moak was acting out of political self interest. Unfortunately he is not.

He does seem to be a true believer in outsourcing. A believer that Delta pilots benefit from having other pilots perform flying that is beneath a subjective standard. He will not say "as cheaply as possible," but he points out that management shares those cost savings with the brand's pilots.

In balance he has done an excellent job in other areas. But when it comes to scope his focus is very narrowly focused on wide body captains. That might be fine for Delta, but that thinking would cause even greater harm to our association than present policies are.

 

[~~~^~~~]

My guess is DALPA is thinking the same too. Kind of like Hank Greenburg crusading against executive bonuses.

Mr. Greenberg to me, was always about stock awards and letting the market provide the "bonus." This is how he rewarded good performance and he did not tolerate failure.

I'm sure he is against bonus money for poor performance - it would be no change from they way he ran AIG for 42 years. During that time he took AIG's US domestic business from a failure and made it the World powerhouse it became. He was forced out in 2006, setting off the chain of incompetency that resulted in AIG's 2008 failure.

Just so you know, Captain Hank Greenberg was one of the US Soldiers that liberated the Nazi prison camp at Dachau in WWII and he fought in Korea and recieved a Bronze Star in combat.

 

[JoeMerchant]

They are already doing behind the scenes deals. They waived LOA 2006-10 with regard to ASA and Comair,

They had to because of the threat of more legal action....ALPA has painted itself in the perverbial corner.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

What's a perverbial corner?

Do you mean a proverbial corner, like when common sense or a maxim is broken, or, do you mean an act of perversion that we might read about in Maxxim?

 

[FBN0223]

Scope, for many of us, is the main issue. It will take tough negotiating and strong union support from all to get back our flying. Moak is not the man for the job. He is a company stool pigeon who will fold early and side with the Delta management on the scope issue.

In the meantime, handing out seniority numbers to DCI carriers is not the solution. Only contractual language that explicitly bans outsourcing and returns our flying back to where it belongs with the pilots of Delta will solve the problem.

 

[~~~^~~~]

FBN:

How about a little of both. Take back the flying & give the incumbent pilots seniority numbers.

Our union can not be about the business of stripping jobs from ALPA members. That's no more right than the union giving them away.

We can't simply fight wrong with wrong. We are a union and the way to go about scope restoration is to act like one.

 

[cessnamann]

F this, i'm going to law school then buying my own plane. ya'll can come fly it with me, even you joe merchant.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

I'm sure he is against bonus money for poor performance - it would be no change from they way he ran AIG for 42 years. During that time he took AIG's US domestic business from a failure and made it the World powerhouse it became. He was forced out in 2006, setting off the chain of incompetency that resulted in AIG's 2008 failure.

According to CNBC, AIG London started their credit swap bs in 2004.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Just so you know, Captain Hank Greenberg was one of the US Soldiers that liberated the Nazi prison camp at Dachau in WWII and he fought in Korea and recieved a Bronze Star in combat.

Holy carp, did not know that!

 

[lookin4better]

FBN:

How about a little of both. Take back the flying & give the incumbent pilots seniority numbers.

Our union can not be about the business of stripping jobs from ALPA members. That's no more right than the union giving them away.

We can't simply fight wrong with wrong. We are a union and the way to go about scope restoration is to act like one.

Agreed to a point, they should be given a chance at an interview and get the job, but not ' given ' a seniority number. Only an opinion.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Even though Northwest does not require a bachelor's degree, I do not know any pilots hired in the last hiring wave without one. I do know a few pilots at Compass without one. There are some extremely qualified Compass pilots, but there were also a couple hired with around 700 hours of total flight time. The hiring standards were not the same. The interview process at NWA was also a lot more selective. Compass struggled to fill classes at one point. That being said, I have no problem putting every single Compass pilot on our list, but I want all the Republic 175's also. It is not possible to take on their pilots. I have no problem doing this. A few years ago, Republic took Mid-Atlantic's airplanes without the pilots. We need all 175's at mainline. After that happens, we need to bring the 175 pay rates up to mirror the DC-9's. None of this will ever happen. In a few years, the smallest aircraft left at mainline will be the 757.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Hockeypilot - I have been promised what you wrote is NOT true. The Compass pilots are very defensive about this point. ( I don't know who's right, you could be right. )

When I repeated what Compass pilots told me members of the Delta MEC rebutted that Compass pilots were not hired by NWA HR, but an outsourced HR firm staffed by former NWA employees... .

It is a distinction which should have little difference to union members. As union members we should draw the circle as large as we can to capture and control as much flying as we can, so we have the most leverage to increase our pay and working conditions.

Let management divide us. We don't need any more divisions. After all, much of this outsourcing was initially justified by the military versus civilian prejudice that clouds the issue of who is worthy to enjoy a good job.

 

[Fly4hire]

In balance he has done an excellent job in other areas. But when it comes to scope his focus is very narrowly focused on wide body captains. That might be fine for Delta, but that thinking would cause even greater harm to our association than present policies are.

Fins,

I think he has done an excellent job in many areas.

However I contend that a robust cost saving on feed via the DCI's will be passed on to the pilots is not only hopelessly naive, but outright dangerous with RA at the helm

Even if it were true, it would only benefit a smaller remaining group of pilots than we had prior to outsourcing.

I'm not saying this is Moaks fault at all - DALPA has had the loosest Scope in the industry since the first RJ's were introduced. I don't see them suddenly becoming the Gold Standard for protecting the profession from outsourcing, let alone taking it back.

Historical precedent would have them continuing to be the trend setters in the wrong direction.

 

[TAWS]

Hey D-Bag,

I have been a advocate of protecting scope even before i made the move over to mainline. The only difference is that now i can actually try to be part of the solution instead of talking about it from the sideline.

You just said you "admit its a major problem" but yet choose to bad mouth those that are trying to fix the problem. Would you prefer it be a "major problem" and no one do anything about it?

Whats the real underlying issue here? Are you just pissy that guys like he and i have moved on and you haven't yet? I mean, you yourself said you agree scope is an issue, so why attack us for trying to fix it?

Take care sweet cheeks

I never applied to NWA or DAL. I did get an offer from UAL, but passed it up, for obvious reasons - thank God!
I have no problem with you flying at DAL, or anyone else for that matter. You do an awful lot of talking, but the fact is that scope relief (any way you want to cut it) is the reason you flew at Expressjet and also the reason you got on with NWA (or was there a family connection there?). Either way, I have an alternate source of income and going to the bottom of a major's list (anywhere, except SWA) would have put a huge dent in that.
You preaching about scope is like an Alcoholic swearing off drink, while he gets wasted at the tavern - disingenuous at best.

Enjoy your time at DAL, Compass might be closer than you think.

 

[Superpilot92]

I never applied to NWA or DAL. I did get an offer from UAL, but passed it up, for obvious reasons - thank God!
I have no problem with you flying at DAL, or anyone else for that matter. You do an awful lot of talking, but the fact is that scope relief (any way you want to cut it) is the reason you flew at Expressjet I dont disagree. Scope was abused by CAL and therefore XJT grew. That doesnt mean that i didnt think scope should have been protected. Fact is that the regionals of today and yesterday are a result of scope relief. I was there and saw it first hand which is why i speak up about it now that i do have a voice at the table. and also the reason you got on with NWA (or was there a family connection there?)Nope, no family or connections at NWA. Either way, I have an alternate source of income congrats!!and going to the bottom of a major's list (anywhere, except SWA) would have put a huge dent in thatThen why did you apply to UAL .
You preaching about scope is like an Alcoholic swearing off drink, while he gets wasted at the tavern - disingenuous at best.Or better yet a previous alcholic trying to stop the destruction that it caused. Again, i was there, i saw the effects first hand. Truth is when i started in this business the regionals were the entry point into this career. The RJ jobs were the turboprop jobs of the past.

Enjoy your time at DAL I am Thanks! , Compass might be closer than you think Doubt it but anythings possible. That possibility was already factored into my decision to take this job. Being 27 when i got hired, the potential gains were, and still are, well worth the sacrifice. :beer:.

I like most people got into this job to eventually move on to the majors. The more scope that is given up the lower the chances are for people to make those moves. After 1 year of sacrifice i make more than a 9 year captain at my previous airline so it was a no brainer for me to make the move. I realize that for a small minority, the regionals are the end all for them and to each there own. The majority want to protect the higher paying jobs in this industry and by protecting scope, thats what we are doing. Since you admitted you will be staying at RAH (unless swa calls) i understand why you get worked up when guys at the majors put the foot down on scope. But like you said before, Scope is a problem and should be fixed. Good luck