SCOPE at DELTA

[JoeMerchant]

N813CA- 8 years these days is very common...esp in this decade. Joe is the token angry lifer, though. As they say, "He ain't right."

I'm not angry....my career has been going up every year....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I hate to admit it, but Joey's right on this one. Everyone forgets that it was the mainline guys who didn't want to fly these airplanes, thinking that "just a few turboprops won't hurt anything," and then it eventually became "it's only a few 50-seaters. What harm could it be?"

The egos and lack of foresight caused this mess. Hopefully pilots are learning their lesson about the importance of scope, but I'm not so sure.

We probably agree on more than we disagree regarding this issue.....I was doing ALPA work before you were in the business.....This is how pilots think...

Ego's in this business have created this message...I fly a fancy jet now after 15 years in the business, and I would be perfectly happy with my ATR back...

 

[JoeMerchant]

You've gotta be kidding me. Which rep said that? (email if you'd prefer not to say publicly) Have these guys still not learned their lessons after 25 years of scope erosion?

You've got to be kidding that this surprises you.....I've known this to be a belief of the mainline MECs for years....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Notice: No intention to flame...

Background: DAL mainline, junior FO, flying with 2 relatively junior CAs.(both have voted No on LOA 19) I've brought up the issue of scope during my trips this month. Let me summarize what my CA had told me:

Guy 1) Scope is only good if it'll help the company to make more money and long term viability. If he can get some sweetheart deal out of scope, he considers scope as bargaining chip. He thinks that the "little" RJ is beneath him, and it is a big time money loser (I explained to him that while it's true for the 50 seater, that "little" E-175 ain't the same money loser anymore). I brought up the latest LEC meeting authorizes to research into the matter of stabling CPZ beneath us, and he thought it's only good for the junior pilots like me, ie furlough protection, but he doesn't see the benefits to the whole pilot group.

Guy 2) He agreed that scope should be taken back, we have lost too many mainline routes to RJ. However, stabling CPZ is not the solution, it only hides it. He pointed out that RJ are not making money, and mainline pilots should not fly anything smaller than MD88. He pointed out that if CPZ is to be stapled onto our list, when hiring starts, we would have a tough time attracting competitive interviewees, i.e. ex-military, regional CA to come to mainline to fly a RJ, with a b scale payscale. He thought that our union should never allow b scale flying in mainline.

I think therein lies our problems in restoring scope. Flame away...

That has always been the position of mainline....At one time I believed it was possible to "fix" this problem...Now I realize it isn't and I need to look out for myself....

 

[JoeMerchant]

In that timeframe you described, everyone I know who went from my regional airline to Continental and United are now furloughed. This "there are circumstances that warrant spending years at a regional" attitude needs to go away. Forget spending years at a regional, for MANY pilots in todays industry, they will spend their career at the regional. It's just how it is. And unlike your thought process, not everyone wants to jump at the opportunity to be on reserve at Continental barely making $30,000 with no medical benefits for the first six months. There are plenty of regional pilots, who in their position, would be crazy to jump ship. I know plenty of Eagle Captains who won't be going anywhere. Doesn't mean they "didn't make the cut" , it just means their current QOL and time in life makes it more worth it to stay at the regional.

Well said Fly1015....Isn't it funny that those of us who don't jump at the "opportunity" to sit reserve in Newark for 30K, while paying for our own health insurance, are somehow the "problem"?

 

[imacdog]

If the staple means folks leave their mil or regional CA job to come fly an RJ...then he may be RIGHT.
Sorry to say but it's partially true.
Now - as for not flying anything smaller than a -88 - ridiculous. However...if the smallest jet is an EMB175 or 195 with pay higher than the regionals ....you will get qualified folks.
A CRJ at regional pay will not attract ex-mil.

Hereby nominated for FI dumbest post of the year 2009. I know we have another nine months to go but this one will be tough to beat.

 

[~~~^~~~]

DALPA wants DCI to make money, .....

First, that's management's problem, not ours, and why would we want our replacements to make money? I hope they lose their shirts (and pants). Another outsourcing deal gone bad, who'd have thought :cartman:

I thought that was the very intent of the restrictions in Delta's scope language.

 

[Flyer1015]

Well said Fly1015....Isn't it funny that those of us who don't jump at the "opportunity" to sit reserve in Newark for 30K, while paying for our own health insurance, are somehow the "problem"?

I know what you mean. I just don't understand some people in this thread.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Bingo!! We have a winner. Our paycuts over the last 5 years have propped up the rj cost. Their may have been some use for the 50 seaters early on, to raid others hubs. Then they may have been able to extract a revenue premium, thus making them viable. But as soon as every major got into the game they became money losers. So, we got to take paycuts which went to supplement the losses the outsourced lift was causing with thier high seat-cost rjs. Now, mgmt. is in a corner again with revenues unable to cover the rj seat mile costs. Now we know the answer, and that is larger aircraft at the mainline while reducing frequency somewhat. But that would take away mgmts whipsaw hammer. As crappy as our contracts have become, WE can and should fly 76 and above. The first airline that does this will be the winner. You will have pilots/employees that actually care about the LONGTERM health of Mother D, and in turn it will show in operational performance and profits. Does anyone think at an airline like Republic which carries pax for 3-4 different majors actually goes out of thier way to provide excellent service to OUR pax??

First, that's management's problem, not ours, and why would we want our replacements to make money? I hope they lose their shirts (and pants). Another outsourcing deal gone bad, who'd have thought :cartman:

I thought that was the very intent of the restrictions in Delta's scope language.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No kidding FIN, but our leadership has made it, its business.
The problem we have with DCI and RJ feed in general is the same problem we have with mainline carriers. We need to keep adding seats and increasing the gage of equipment flying to us or them to keep the legacy costs in check. It is kind of like feeding the disease. If you do not give them bigger jets and more jets the costs cannot be amortized across more seats and the operation begins to become less and less viable. That is why there will be a continuous pressure on DALPA to perpetually relax scope. If we do not do so, it makes DCI less and less viable.
I think that our DALPA leaders understand this, the problem is that they are using in at Scope as a bargaining chip to get "better wages" for us. That my friends is going to further erode our power base, read number of pilots we employ at mainline, and have the exact opposite effect on our incomes and negotiating power long term. Strength in numbers, that is how we will win this fight long term. That is the who concept behind unionism and unity. Lets employ it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ACL, they are walking a tightrope.

If their concern is corporate profits, then we could agree to work for US Air wages and the Company would be more profitable.

If they believe they can outsource part of the flying and management will share those profits with them, then that's a hell of a way to run a union.

Either way, the approach that "outsourcing is good" is flawed from its very inception and will eventually fail. There is no such thing as a new union paradigm. A union's only power is its ability to enforce a monopoly on labor. If management has a choice of choosing one pilot over another, the union has failed. That failure will be reflected in less power and lower pay.

I know we agree. I'm just wondering how we get our union to act like a union. The majority is being ignored to its peril. We have a friendly administration for a change (heck, even I'm sending in ALPA PAC money) now is the time!

 

[another cfii]

No kidding FIN, but our leadership has made it, its business.
The problem we have with DCI and RJ feed in general is the same problem we have with mainline carriers. We need to keep adding seats and increasing the gage of equipment flying to us or them to keep the legacy costs in check. It is kind of like feeding the disease. If you do not give them bigger jets and more jets the costs cannot be amortized across more seats and the operation begins to become less and less viable. That is why there will be a continuous pressure on DALPA to perpetually relax scope. If we do not do so, it makes DCI less and less viable.
I think that our DALPA leaders understand this, the problem is that they are using in at Scope as a bargaining chip to get "better wages" for us. That my friends is going to further erode our power base, read number of pilots we employ at mainline, and have the exact opposite effect on our incomes and negotiating power long term. Strength in numbers, that is how we will win this fight long term. That is the who concept behind unionism and unity. Lets employ it.

I think we need more folks like ACL and Fin to run our union, rather than the few folks that "think" they know what's best for the 12k of us, knowing any more scope erosion wouldn't affect them until they retire.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

ACL, they are walking a tightrope.

If their concern is corporate profits, then we could agree to work for US Air wages and the Company would be more profitable.

If they believe they can outsource part of the flying and management will share those profits with them, then that's a hell of a way to run a union.

Either way, the approach that "outsourcing is good" is flawed from its very inception and will eventually fail. There is no such thing as a new union paradigm. A union's only power is its ability to enforce a monopoly on labor. If management has a choice of choosing one pilot over another, the union has failed. That failure will be reflected in less power and lower pay.

I know we agree. I'm just wondering how we get our union to act like a union. The majority is being ignored to its peril. We have a friendly administration for a change (heck, even I'm sending in ALPA PAC money) now is the time!

I know we agree. I find it quite irritating that we need to accomplish actions that our leaders (DAL not DALPA) are paid to do. We need to as per what unionism is, run the union, increase it membership and abide by the oath our union leaders take.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Let's be realistic here guys. The LOA allowing this is probably already in the works. It will be signed before the union makes a statement just like the last one. We will not to get to vote. It will probably say as soon as a Delta pilot is furloughed, the aircraft in question can then only be loaded to 86,000 lbs. Common sense will tell you where this is going. The company will not furlough, but will never grow again. If you're close to the bottom of the list (like me), get used to it.

 

[xjhawk]

Okay sounds to me that everyone thinks there is a problem. the idiots blame the regional pilots. No matter who we work for, I am sure most of us took the first job offer we were given. Some of us just got better offers.

Now what is the solution? Lets ask that ORG that takes 2.9% of our pay every paycheck? What are they to do about it? Nothing! I am sure if there was a ten year plan...for min pay at the regionals..... A flow up and down for brand scope.....So no matter what company flys the planes, they are hired and regulated (one seniority list) by the mainline.

These are only broad ideas and some of you who are idiots will come down hard on them, but come up with a solution-please...and stop blaming the guy who would love to work for a major....except as we were all told.....go do your time at a regional....then go to a major....and please if you were the one who suggested all regional pilots be banned from working at majors and keep only corporate and military pilots go to the majors......Go F%$# yourself