SCOPE at DELTA

[imacdog]

If the staple means folks leave their mil or regional CA job to come fly an RJ...then he may be RIGHT.
Sorry to say but it's partially true.
Now - as for not flying anything smaller than a -88 - ridiculous. However...if the smallest jet is an EMB175 or 195 with pay higher than the regionals ....you will get qualified folks.
A CRJ at regional pay will not attract ex-mil.

Hereby nominated for FI dumbest post of the year 2009. I know we have another nine months to go but this one will be tough to beat.

 

[~~~^~~~]

DALPA wants DCI to make money, .....

First, that's management's problem, not ours, and why would we want our replacements to make money? I hope they lose their shirts (and pants). Another outsourcing deal gone bad, who'd have thought :cartman:

I thought that was the very intent of the restrictions in Delta's scope language.

 

[Flyer1015]

Well said Fly1015....Isn't it funny that those of us who don't jump at the "opportunity" to sit reserve in Newark for 30K, while paying for our own health insurance, are somehow the "problem"?

I know what you mean. I just don't understand some people in this thread.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Bingo!! We have a winner. Our paycuts over the last 5 years have propped up the rj cost. Their may have been some use for the 50 seaters early on, to raid others hubs. Then they may have been able to extract a revenue premium, thus making them viable. But as soon as every major got into the game they became money losers. So, we got to take paycuts which went to supplement the losses the outsourced lift was causing with thier high seat-cost rjs. Now, mgmt. is in a corner again with revenues unable to cover the rj seat mile costs. Now we know the answer, and that is larger aircraft at the mainline while reducing frequency somewhat. But that would take away mgmts whipsaw hammer. As crappy as our contracts have become, WE can and should fly 76 and above. The first airline that does this will be the winner. You will have pilots/employees that actually care about the LONGTERM health of Mother D, and in turn it will show in operational performance and profits. Does anyone think at an airline like Republic which carries pax for 3-4 different majors actually goes out of thier way to provide excellent service to OUR pax??

First, that's management's problem, not ours, and why would we want our replacements to make money? I hope they lose their shirts (and pants). Another outsourcing deal gone bad, who'd have thought :cartman:

I thought that was the very intent of the restrictions in Delta's scope language.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No kidding FIN, but our leadership has made it, its business.
The problem we have with DCI and RJ feed in general is the same problem we have with mainline carriers. We need to keep adding seats and increasing the gage of equipment flying to us or them to keep the legacy costs in check. It is kind of like feeding the disease. If you do not give them bigger jets and more jets the costs cannot be amortized across more seats and the operation begins to become less and less viable. That is why there will be a continuous pressure on DALPA to perpetually relax scope. If we do not do so, it makes DCI less and less viable.
I think that our DALPA leaders understand this, the problem is that they are using in at Scope as a bargaining chip to get "better wages" for us. That my friends is going to further erode our power base, read number of pilots we employ at mainline, and have the exact opposite effect on our incomes and negotiating power long term. Strength in numbers, that is how we will win this fight long term. That is the who concept behind unionism and unity. Lets employ it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ACL, they are walking a tightrope.

If their concern is corporate profits, then we could agree to work for US Air wages and the Company would be more profitable.

If they believe they can outsource part of the flying and management will share those profits with them, then that's a hell of a way to run a union.

Either way, the approach that "outsourcing is good" is flawed from its very inception and will eventually fail. There is no such thing as a new union paradigm. A union's only power is its ability to enforce a monopoly on labor. If management has a choice of choosing one pilot over another, the union has failed. That failure will be reflected in less power and lower pay.

I know we agree. I'm just wondering how we get our union to act like a union. The majority is being ignored to its peril. We have a friendly administration for a change (heck, even I'm sending in ALPA PAC money) now is the time!

 

[another cfii]

No kidding FIN, but our leadership has made it, its business.
The problem we have with DCI and RJ feed in general is the same problem we have with mainline carriers. We need to keep adding seats and increasing the gage of equipment flying to us or them to keep the legacy costs in check. It is kind of like feeding the disease. If you do not give them bigger jets and more jets the costs cannot be amortized across more seats and the operation begins to become less and less viable. That is why there will be a continuous pressure on DALPA to perpetually relax scope. If we do not do so, it makes DCI less and less viable.
I think that our DALPA leaders understand this, the problem is that they are using in at Scope as a bargaining chip to get "better wages" for us. That my friends is going to further erode our power base, read number of pilots we employ at mainline, and have the exact opposite effect on our incomes and negotiating power long term. Strength in numbers, that is how we will win this fight long term. That is the who concept behind unionism and unity. Lets employ it.

I think we need more folks like ACL and Fin to run our union, rather than the few folks that "think" they know what's best for the 12k of us, knowing any more scope erosion wouldn't affect them until they retire.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

ACL, they are walking a tightrope.

If their concern is corporate profits, then we could agree to work for US Air wages and the Company would be more profitable.

If they believe they can outsource part of the flying and management will share those profits with them, then that's a hell of a way to run a union.

Either way, the approach that "outsourcing is good" is flawed from its very inception and will eventually fail. There is no such thing as a new union paradigm. A union's only power is its ability to enforce a monopoly on labor. If management has a choice of choosing one pilot over another, the union has failed. That failure will be reflected in less power and lower pay.

I know we agree. I'm just wondering how we get our union to act like a union. The majority is being ignored to its peril. We have a friendly administration for a change (heck, even I'm sending in ALPA PAC money) now is the time!

I know we agree. I find it quite irritating that we need to accomplish actions that our leaders (DAL not DALPA) are paid to do. We need to as per what unionism is, run the union, increase it membership and abide by the oath our union leaders take.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Let's be realistic here guys. The LOA allowing this is probably already in the works. It will be signed before the union makes a statement just like the last one. We will not to get to vote. It will probably say as soon as a Delta pilot is furloughed, the aircraft in question can then only be loaded to 86,000 lbs. Common sense will tell you where this is going. The company will not furlough, but will never grow again. If you're close to the bottom of the list (like me), get used to it.

 

[xjhawk]

Okay sounds to me that everyone thinks there is a problem. the idiots blame the regional pilots. No matter who we work for, I am sure most of us took the first job offer we were given. Some of us just got better offers.

Now what is the solution? Lets ask that ORG that takes 2.9% of our pay every paycheck? What are they to do about it? Nothing! I am sure if there was a ten year plan...for min pay at the regionals..... A flow up and down for brand scope.....So no matter what company flys the planes, they are hired and regulated (one seniority list) by the mainline.

These are only broad ideas and some of you who are idiots will come down hard on them, but come up with a solution-please...and stop blaming the guy who would love to work for a major....except as we were all told.....go do your time at a regional....then go to a major....and please if you were the one who suggested all regional pilots be banned from working at majors and keep only corporate and military pilots go to the majors......Go F%$# yourself

 

[Fly4hire]

Let's be realistic here guys. The LOA allowing this is probably already in the works. It will be signed before the union makes a statement just like the last one.

I have it on good authority they did not know in advance and learned about it shortly after it broke over on APC.

Given the sentiment, and that it would be political suicide to do another behind the scenes deal on Scope, I think this one will get a full airing with the MEC.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I have it on good authority they did not know in advance and learned about it shortly after it broke over on APC.

Given the sentiment, and that it would be political suicide to do another behind the scenes deal on Scope, I think this one will get a full airing with the MEC.

I really hope you are right. We need to be proactive and start filing grievances now to stop the process. I'd say this memo is proof of intent to blatantly break our contract. Even if nothing comes of it, it gives us a stronger case later.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

That is the point. We need to give the company and DCI notice that this mod is in direct violation of our contract. If they choose to go ahead with it, the damages we are given in arbitration will be greater than waiting for them to actually violate it.

 

[PuffDriver]

I have it on good authority they did not know in advance and learned about it shortly after it broke over on APC.

Given the sentiment, and that it would be political suicide to do another behind the scenes deal on Scope, I think this one will get a full airing with the MEC.

Just by being certified, those jets violate our scope clause. Letter has been mailed to the reps.

an excerpt:


Section 1 B. 40. d. jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats and certificated
in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less
(“76-seat jets”).

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly. I have sent one too. A few days ago our reps seemed to be completely taken by surprise by this.

 

[TAWS]

I just checked in to look at this thread, after 2 weeks of "swearing off" the BS at FI.

How ironic that 2 products of scope relief (Superpilot and PeanuckeCRJ) are the 2 cheerleaders of scope NOW!!

While I agree that scope is a major problem, I can't stand A$$kissers like these 2, suddenly pretending that they were born into the right seat at DAL.....(or wherever they are now).

Any of you guys that came from an RJ should probably STFU, as you guys were part of the problem prior to becoming a "Major Pilot". To all the others who have suffered and watched as their their careers were negatively impacted by scope creep, I apologize.

To all those such as SuperPilot and PeanuckleCRJ, get a F---ing life!!

Rant over.........................

 

[hockeypilot44]

I just checked in to look at this thread, after 2 weeks of "swearing off" the BS at FI.

How ironic that 2 products of scope relief (Superpilot and PeanuckeCRJ) are the 2 cheerleaders of scope NOW!!

While I agree that scope is a major problem, I can't stand A$$kissers like these 2, suddenly pretending that they were born into the right seat at DAL.....(or wherever they are now).

Any of you guys that came from an RJ should probably STFU, as you guys were part of the problem prior to becoming a "Major Pilot". To all the others who have suffered and watched as their their careers were negatively impacted by scope creep, I apologize.

To all those such as SuperPilot and PeanuckleCRJ, get a F---ing life!!

Rant over.........................

I have nothing but the utmost respect for most regional pilots. We are all pilots. I do not blame scope erosion on you. I am placing the blame on our unions. We need to make a stand. It would be nice if the IBT would step in and threaten Republic knowing that it is in violation of another union's contract. I know this will never happens. Unions are about collecting dues. The people running the unions are extremely overpaid for what they do, and they will not risk losing their cushy jobs for anything. Some unity would be nice though.

 

[Superpilot92]

I just checked in to look at this thread, after 2 weeks of "swearing off" the BS at FI.

How ironic that 2 products of scope relief (Superpilot and PeanuckeCRJ) are the 2 cheerleaders of scope NOW!!

While I agree that scope is a major problem, I can't stand A$$kissers like these 2, suddenly pretending that they were born into the right seat at DAL.....(or wherever they are now).

Any of you guys that came from an RJ should probably STFU, as you guys were part of the problem prior to becoming a "Major Pilot". To all the others who have suffered and watched as their their careers were negatively impacted by scope creep, I apologize.

To all those such as SuperPilot and PeanuckleCRJ, get a F---ing life!!

Rant over.........................

Hey D-Bag,

I have been a advocate of protecting scope even before i made the move over to mainline. The only difference is that now i can actually try to be part of the solution instead of talking about it from the sideline.

You just said you "admit its a major problem" but yet choose to bad mouth those that are trying to fix the problem. Would you prefer it be a "major problem" and no one do anything about it?

Whats the real underlying issue here? Are you just pissy that guys like he and i have moved on and you haven't yet? I mean, you yourself said you agree scope is an issue, so why attack us for trying to fix it?

Take care sweet cheeks

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

When I got hired at the regional we were limited to 44 seats on most of our CRJ's and a certain amount of 50's. I believed that to be the maximum appropriate to protect mainline jobs- although personal beliefs held that regionals should have been left to turboprops.... and before anyone comments, this was long before the realities of the Q400.

I harshly chastized anyone at my company who thought scope relief was a good idea to help Pinnacle fly "bigger planes." I promptly educated them that was their chance (and of course mine) of getting hired at a major getting flushed down the drain as larger regional jets get outsourced.

The trend of flying larger regional jets increased in bankruptcy, unfortunately. I saw all the 44 seaters get converted to 50s.

Now that I'm at a major and actually have a bit more of a say in all this crap, I'm trying to make a positive difference in this career and reverse the trend. (remember everyone on here blames the majors for the problem, how about being the solution?)

TAWS, would you rather be flying that 170/5 at a regional for 60 dollars an hour (30 for FO), or at a major for 100+ dollars an hour (65 or so for FO)?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

FWIW, my career and upgrade was not a product of scope relief, I was hired and upgraded under the much stricter scope of the NWA 1998 contract.