PNCL: Class personified!! wow., just wow

[xjhawk]

The reason they could not come to an agreement is that the individual MEC's are bound to only accept what is best for their pilots. Any compromise to "give" to another pilot group screws a portion of their pilots-putting the negotiators in a bad place. It is best so they do not have the future label as a bad negotiator is have an arbitrator complete the process-even though the arbitrator wants some sort of compromise. And when you look at the first proposals and think they are outlandish-well that (sadly) is how negotiations go. You start from one end and work towards a less acceptable (but still acceptable) compromise. So by starting out with DOH with fences and DOH credit (this is all speculation from a previous post) would hopefully lead them to DOH-which is apparently what they wanted.

 

[xjhawk]

I would have to think any Pinnacle pilot would be happy with DOH-to a lesser extent most Mesba pilots would be okay with it too. The unfair sticking point is career expectations for the Colgan pilots. Something needs to be done to accommodate them, and the only way to do it without giving them a huge windfall (great contract and seniority) is to do DOH with Fences to protect their current positions. The unrealistic sticking point to DOH is un idiotic position the Pinnacle MEC and negotiators who think they were the acquiring airline and they deserve nothing less than huge gains in seniority. If they get that-the Arbitrator is out of his mind-if Colgan gets protection as in fences-acceptable

 

[Flyer1015]

I would have to think any Pinnacle pilot would be happy with DOH-to a lesser extent most Mesba pilots would be okay with it too. The unfair sticking point is career expectations for the Colgan pilots. Something needs to be done to accommodate them, and the only way to do it without giving them a huge windfall (great contract and seniority) is to do DOH with Fences to protect their current positions. The unrealistic sticking point to DOH is un idiotic position the Pinnacle MEC and negotiators who think they were the acquiring airline and they deserve nothing less than huge gains in seniority. If they get that-the Arbitrator is out of his mind-if Colgan gets protection as in fences-acceptable

Dumb proposal. If that's the case, Colgan pilots would get their flying protected with the fence, ensuring their movements (upgrades, base transfer) are within their own Colgan house. On the other hand, with just DOH and no fences for 9E/XJ, you will have tons of stale XJ FOs start upgrading, leaving any 9E FO hired 2007 and onwards in the dust while the stale XJ FOs enjoy their first upgrades in 3+ years. Yeah, sounds fair to me!

 

[bri5150]

Dumb proposal. If that's the case, Colgan pilots would get their flying protected with the fence, ensuring their movements (upgrades, base transfer) are within their own Colgan house. On the other hand, with just DOH and no fences for 9E/XJ, you will have tons of stale XJ FOs start upgrading, leaving any 9E FO hired 2007 and onwards in the dust while the stale XJ FOs enjoy their first upgrades in 3+ years. Yeah, sounds fair to me!

If it's DOH with no fences for 9E/XJ, how will an '07 9E FO be left in the dust while an '08 XJ FO gets to upgrade? Am I missing something? Do you even know what you are writing?

 

[Flyer1015]

If it's DOH with no fences for 9E/XJ, how will an '07 9E FO be left in the dust while an '08 XJ FO gets to upgrade? Am I missing something? Do you even know what you are writing?

Yes you are missing something. Because it won't be the '08 XJ FOs upgrading, it will be the ones before that. Mesabas FOs, overall, are more senior than Pinnacle FOs. The most recent Pinnacle upgrade went to a DOH of March 2007. What's the most junior XJ upgrade? Oh wait, you haven't had one (save the LGA Saab) for almost 3 years. How many countless FOs are at XJ from 2004-2007 who are just waiting at their opportunity for upgrading? I got news for you: if Mesaba was a stand alone carrier, they would not be upgrading. With less and less Saabs as time goes on, you'd be looking at furloughs and downgrades. Even if the US Air Saabs stick for a long time, you'd be down to 60 RJs and 7 Saabs at LGA. That's 67 planes. Your list of the current 1,070 or so would dwindle down even further. No matter which way you look at it, this merger, and especially this one list, is a savior for Mesaba. I'd hate to look at XJ with only 60 RJs by 2012 if you were a stand-alone carrier. And guess what? Delta owned you before PNCL holdings bought you. Do you know Delta does to its wholly owned carriers? Just ask sister Comair..............

 

[xjhawk]

I have not studied the lists but I do know that Pinnacle had its bulk of hiring prior to almost all of Mesaba's post Bankruptcy growth-making DOH desirable for most of your pilots (except the ultra senior who seem to control the MEC). So I do not have the lists in front of me, but lets just say 500 is the post bankruptcy number at Mesaba-that means the majority of your FO's and Jr Captains would be Senior to most of the Mesaba people. How is this bad? Oh that is right, you must have 15 years in at Pinnacle and are bitter at the Mesaba list having all those 15+ people on it. I will also stand by the fact that Pinnacle AIrlines was not as economically viable as you say BECAUSE it has what, 140 CRJ 200's-the very plane that Delta is trying reduce their number. By giving Mesaba to Pinnacle (providing the financing-because Delta knew pinnacle was not able to financially afford it without help) it extended the ASA for the Mesaba flying. Did they also extend the Pinnacle ASA? I do not know. But I do not think the fate of your airline without the injection of Mesaba was all that peachy.

DOH works out better for a higher % of Pinnacle pilots since 2004 you took delivery of what....70 planes while Mesaba since 2007/8 took delivery of only 41. So all your posturing and lies are all to screw your own bottom half of the list. And by proposing what your MEC (negotiators) proposed is based on lies. From what I hear was not backed up by ANY real evidence, unlike other proposals brought forth during mediation.

 

[xjhawk]

If it's DOH with no fences for 9E/XJ, how will an '07 9E FO be left in the dust while an '08 XJ FO gets to upgrade? Am I missing something? Do you even know what you are writing?

This person, just like the rest of them cannot see proof in numbers-as their lies from what I hear have no legal precedence. The status of Mesaba-the LOA-their own seniority list when compared to that of Mesaba's is all blind to this guy. He is only concerned with the very top part of the list. I just keep asking myself why they were not going to DOH when they obviously hired way more people before we did (since 2003 at least)? Then I figured it out-they are greedy idiots and are hoping for an injustice like that of Frontier and Midwest. Two good airlines screwed by a group of terrible people. Oh and they forget-we are all ALPA-bound by ALPA merger policy. I just hope the fair and equitable is fair and equitable by Bloch's standards

 

[xjhawk]

Hey flyer-see that-even after listening to idiots like you on the boards I still want fair and equitable for all-which means we will all give something for this to work and make it a place not hate the guy I am sitting next too. I am surprised you idiots did not go as far to say staple all under you and use the American/TWA example as your reasoning. Someone probably whispered in some 9E MEC member that the American/TWA model is not looked favorably upon (which history will show the same will be said about your precious Republic model)

 

[Flyer1015]

Alright, alright, alright. I'll be for DOH but with NO fences (not even for the props). I still can't understand Colgan's stance against DOH. Their most junior upgrade has already approached a 2010 DOH. God forbid a Colgan pilot have to wait more than 12 months for an upgrade. Imagine the horror! We've had people here wait 4+ years with no upgrade, and I'm sure Mesaba paints a similar picture. And most Pinnacle pilots have no interest in coming to the prop side of the picture, except the IAH base. I know a few that want IAH, and are willing to go from the RJ to the Q for that. But for everything else, the only movement to the props would be for upgrade. No one wants EWR, and any pilot close to EWR at Pinnacle is already at JFK.

I will also stand by the fact that Pinnacle AIrlines was not as economically viable as you say BECAUSE it has what, 140 CRJ 200's-the very plane that Delta is trying reduce their number.

This is a moot point. That flying is covered by an ASA going through 2017. Delta wants to cut 50 seaters, they can, and will cut them, but it won't be from Pinnacle. Not unless our performance goes down the chute, that's another story for another thread. But as of now, the only ones Delta can *easily* bend over are wholly owned carriers. Comair is the unlucky one, and everyone knows what's happening with them. Guess the #2 wholly owned carrier at Delta? Yup, Mesaba. You being bought by PNCL Holdings was the best thing that could happen for XJ. Mesaba now avoids a similar fate as Comair. Delta shows no mercy for those they can easily cut. As for cuts for a regional (like PNCL) that already has an ASA in place, Delta found out how expensive it is to go to court and litigation involved (remember Mesa/Freedom). At the end, they STILL paid almost 45 million to get rid of that contract.

As for this:

Mesaba to Pinnacle (providing the financing-because Delta knew pinnacle was not able to financially afford it without help) it extended the ASA for the Mesaba flying. Did they also extend the Pinnacle ASA? I do not know. But I do not think the fate of your airline without the injection of Mesaba was all that peachy.

Now you are speaking highly of the very ASA I tried to invoke as protection for the Pinnacle 200s. So you use it only when it helps you to make your point? As I stated before, the Pinnacle CRJ200s are not being cut, and contractually "can't" be cut unless we violate certain ASA provisions. You are correct that our ASA was extended with the Mesaba purchase. The 200s did not change, ASA goes through 2017, but with Mesaba and Pinnacle 900s, the ASA was further extended for a total of 12 years. Even without a Mesaba purchase, our future was still much, much better than any other regional out there. Most other regional's ASA expire in the next few years, like 2012-2015. Almost EVERYONE is due up. Pinnacle has theirs go through 2017. The 900s are even longer than that. While our future isn't peachy-perfect, it certainly is better compared to almost every other regional out there. And certainly, our future standalone was far better than Mesaba's future standalone, being just 60 RJs and 7 Saabs for a total of 67 aircraft by the end of 2012.

 

[bri5150]

Flyer,

I am too tired to look up the details, but I remember lots of ASA's at Mesaba that "locked up" our flying for a long time. I have only been here 6 years, so they certainly weren't "locked up". Granted, some were from pre-bankruptcy, but if Delta wants to dump flying, I am pretty sure they will find a way to do it. Was ASA's (the airline) flying "locked up" when they got the ratio for the 900's that were coming our way? I honestly don't know, but I assume they were otherwise they would have just been cut. Contracts are great, but we all know how well management sticks to contracts. If anyone has details on past XJ ASA's, I would be happy to here about them. Avros and Saabs, and maybe even the 200's we were suppose to get but only got 2, got "locked up" for a looooong time just before bankruptcy, I remeber that.

 

[Flyer1015]

Flyer,

I am too tired to look up the details, but I remember lots of ASA's at Mesaba that "locked up" our flying for a long time. I have only been here 6 years, so they certainly weren't "locked up". Granted, some were from pre-bankruptcy, but if Delta wants to dump flying, I am pretty sure they will find a way to do it. Was ASA's (the airline) flying "locked up" when they got the ratio for the 900's that were coming our way? I honestly don't know, but I assume they were otherwise they would have just been cut. Contracts are great, but we all know how well management sticks to contracts. If anyone has details on past XJ ASA's, I would be happy to here about them. Avros and Saabs, and maybe even the 200's we were suppose to get but only got 2, got "locked up" for a looooong time just before bankruptcy, I remeber that.

Look up your early-out clause for Saabs in your ASA, and you'll see why Delta is parking all Saabs this year and latest by next year. The early-out is in there. Pinnacle has no published 'early out' for any of its RJ flying in the ASA.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Well you could start with the 10 year Avro agreement that was tossed out (along with all 35 planes) a couple months after being signed back in 2005. The CRJ200's was supposed to be 20 new airframes with a guarantee that the next 15 options would go to Mesaba also (the "big announcement" from spring 2005). In reality it ended up being 2 airframes with 1 being almost immediatly given to Compass to start up thier operations, though after the shamruptcy it was eventually returned to Mesaba. And now we all remember the constant garbage spewed during said shamruptcy about "our core 49 Saab fleet" that clearly isn't the case.

 

[bri5150]

Any chance this is just coincidence the day after the list is suppose to come out?

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/may_21_2011_end_of_the_world_judgment_day.html

 

[xjhawk]

Flyer-I actually sensed some good will in the last post about DOH-I can understand your beef about the fences, those Colgan pilots are already getting better pay and work rules-why gift wrap huge seniority gains for them as well. But your argument about how the future of Pinnacle airlines leaves a little to be desired. Someone on here pointed out the promises given to mesaba in rock solid ASA's- that turned out to be lies. Thanks Delta. They can do that to anyone. And as for being the in a great place-I do not think Pinnacle was as high as ASA or Skywest. They have real lock solid flying from Delta (dont they own the gates in Salt Lake and have as part of the ASA deal most the flying out of ATL?) But if you think 9E's crj200's are untouchable-I hope you are right.I would think in todays economy an airline with a lot of 900's or 175/190's is best suited for the future.

Glad we can agree on DOH though

 

[bri5150]

Flyer-I actually sensed some good will in the last post about DOH-I can understand your beef about the fences, those Colgan pilots are already getting better pay and work rules-why gift wrap huge seniority gains for them as well. But your argument about how the future of Pinnacle airlines leaves a little to be desired. Someone on here pointed out the promises given to mesaba in rock solid ASA's- that turned out to be lies. Thanks Delta. They can do that to anyone. And as for being the in a great place-I do not think Pinnacle was as high as ASA or Skywest. They have real lock solid flying from Delta (dont they own the gates in Salt Lake and have as part of the ASA deal most the flying out of ATL?) But if you think 9E's crj200's are untouchable-I hope you are right.I would think in todays economy an airline with a lot of 900's or 175/190's is best suited for the future.

Glad we can agree on DOH though

Come on...bring it in...group hug time...

 

[Flyer1015]

Well, I guess we can all agree on some things. There's always bound to be some common ground, after are, we are airline pilots with certain personalities (type A?). It's just a matter of days, and Bloch will release his award/decision.

Interestingly, I googled Richard Bloch to see what his previous record is like. Apparently, the NFL Player Union fired Bloch as their arbitrator after he made a decision that wasn't in favor of the NFL Player, something about his huge $ contract. It's interesting reading on arbitrator cases.

 

[SEVEN]

Well, I guess we can all agree on some things. There's always bound to be some common ground, after are, we are airline pilots with certain personalities (type A?). It's just a matter of days, and Bloch will release his award/decision.

Interestingly, I googled Richard Bloch to see what his previous record is like. Apparently, the NFL Player Union fired Bloch as their arbitrator after he made a decision that wasn't in favor of the NFL Player, something about his huge $ contract. It's interesting reading on arbitrator cases.

Getting nervous yet?

 

[Flyer1015]

Getting nervous yet?

No, but I do want to see the award.

 

[Flyer1015]

Fifty-Seater Issue Still Looms Large For U.S. Regionals


http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...er Issue Still Looms Large For U.S. Regionals

May 16, 2011


By Andrew Compart

It is no secret that 50-seat regional jets have been falling out of favor as higher fuel costs make them uneconomical on a growing number of routes, which is why many U.S. regional carriers have been trying to shift their fleets to larger aircraft. But a closer look at some numbers shows why regional airlines remain vulnerable on their 50-seat fleets, especially if fuel costs continue to rise.

For all of their size-shifting efforts, 50-seaters still accounted for about half the U.S. regional airline fleet as of last July, according to Regional Airline Association statistics (RAA).
A significant percentage are used on routes of 600 mi. or more, an Aviation Week analysis shows. That matters because of the economics—Delta Air Lines already has pulled back its usage of 50-seaters to routes under 750 mi. and has talked about pulling them back to routes under 600 mi. That means those longer routes would be the most vulnerable if other major carriers follow Delta’s lead.

Delta still has about 60 routes of 600 mi. or longer, all of which are operated by Pinnacle Airlines, according to Aviation Week’s analysis.
The moments of truth will come with the expiration of the contracts a regional carrier has for flying the aircraft for a major airline partner (or sooner, if the major airline finds a way out of the contract). Over the rest of this decade that will happen for more than 70% of the 50-seater fleet. If the aircraft are not coming off lease, the regional carriers will have to find contract terms the major carriers are willing to accept or find another use for them.

Pinnacle, however, talks about these contract expirations as an “opportunity,” because its fleet also includes larger and more cost-efficient Bombardier CRJ900 regional jets and Bombardier Q400 turboprops. “Some of these [50-seater] contracts will be renewed or offered to other regional airlines and some will be replaced with larger regional jets,” Pinnacle explains, while noting that its first mass expiration of contracts will not occur until 2017. “We intend to actively compete to obtain profitable regional jet and Q400 flying during this period of transition within the industry, and we believe our history of strong operating performance with a competitive cost structure will position us to succeed.”

 

[bri5150]

Fifty-Seater Issue Still Looms Large For U.S. Regionals


http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...er Issue Still Looms Large For U.S. Regionals

May 16, 2011


By Andrew Compart

It is no secret that 50-seat regional jets have been falling out of favor as higher fuel costs make them uneconomical on a growing number of routes, which is why many U.S. regional carriers have been trying to shift their fleets to larger aircraft. But a closer look at some numbers shows why regional airlines remain vulnerable on their 50-seat fleets, especially if fuel costs continue to rise.

For all of their size-shifting efforts, 50-seaters still accounted for about half the U.S. regional airline fleet as of last July, according to Regional Airline Association statistics (RAA).
A significant percentage are used on routes of 600 mi. or more, an Aviation Week analysis shows. That matters because of the economics—Delta Air Lines already has pulled back its usage of 50-seaters to routes under 750 mi. and has talked about pulling them back to routes under 600 mi. That means those longer routes would be the most vulnerable if other major carriers follow Delta’s lead.

Delta still has about 60 routes of 600 mi. or longer, all of which are operated by Pinnacle Airlines, according to Aviation Week’s analysis.
The moments of truth will come with the expiration of the contracts a regional carrier has for flying the aircraft for a major airline partner (or sooner, if the major airline finds a way out of the contract). Over the rest of this decade that will happen for more than 70% of the 50-seater fleet. If the aircraft are not coming off lease, the regional carriers will have to find contract terms the major carriers are willing to accept or find another use for them.

Pinnacle, however, talks about these contract expirations as an “opportunity,” because its fleet also includes larger and more cost-efficient Bombardier CRJ900 regional jets and Bombardier Q400 turboprops. “Some of these [50-seater] contracts will be renewed or offered to other regional airlines and some will be replaced with larger regional jets,” Pinnacle explains, while noting that its first mass expiration of contracts will not occur until 2017. “We intend to actively compete to obtain profitable regional jet and Q400 flying during this period of transition within the industry, and we believe our history of strong operating performance with a competitive cost structure will position us to succeed.”

/group hug over

Huh? Losing aircraft is an "opportunity"? Sounds like typical management spin to me. How will they be replaced with larger regional jets if scope is maxed out? Okay, first mass EXPIRATION of contracts in 2017. What about mass RENEGOTIATING of contracts? There really isn't much in this article other than management trying to polish a turd. If you assume the cuts will be even among all the regional carriers, Delta wants us down from approx. 150 200's to approx 50? At no time has Mesaba had 100 aircraft in danger at the same time. That is a HUGE cut.