PNCL: Class personified!! wow., just wow

[Flyer1015]

And I'm surprised no one has said this yet: the Colgan merger committee just made a stupid decision by publishing these final stands 5 days before the final award comes out.

The overall tone sounds heavily on the "we were at least kinda fair, the other two (xj and 9e) were just waay out there with their ideas!" It has done NOTHING but create animosity, stir up emotions, and create a bad environment. Honestly, we don't need this. Colgan shouldn't have published this. Mesaba and Pinnacle were mature enough not to do it, Colgan should have too. Had they listened to Bloch, they wouldn't have done it, though nothing explicitly forbid them from doing so, common sense dictates not to publish this before the Bloch award. Historically, arbitrators put in their award the methods that each team proposed. This is included in the history/background explanation for the SLI by the arbitrator. By Colgan saying that they wanted this information out before the final award, so pilots can see what the positions are, I ask them, "why?" The positions WILL be posted in the final SLI document by Bloch. If you want to read it, simply start reading from page 1, and you will see the history/background/method of all 3 regionals BEFORE you get to the final SLI award.

Bad move, Colgan merger committee.

 

[Airscrew]

And I'm surprised no one has said this yet: the Colgan merger committee just made a stupid decision by publishing these final stands 5 days before the final award comes out.

The overall tone sounds heavily on the "we were at least kinda fair, the other two (xj and 9e) were just waay out there with their ideas!" It has done NOTHING but create animosity, stir up emotions, and create a bad environment. Honestly, we don't need this. Colgan shouldn't have published this. Mesaba and Pinnacle were mature enough not to do it, Colgan should have too. Had they listened to Bloch, they wouldn't have done it, though nothing explicitly forbid them from doing so, common sense dictates not to publish this before the Bloch award. Historically, arbitrators put in their award the methods that each team proposed. This is included in the history/background explanation for the SLI by the arbitrator. By Colgan saying that they wanted this information out before the final award, so pilots can see what the positions are, I ask them, "why?" The positions WILL be posted in the final SLI document by Bloch. If you want to read it, simply start reading from page 1, and you will see the history/background/method of all 3 regionals BEFORE you get to the final SLI award.

Bad move, Colgan merger committee.

Stop whining, sorry we hurt your sensitive feelings. It's out of your and my hands.

 

[Flyer1015]

Stop whining, sorry we hurt your sensitive feelings. It's out of your and my hands.

I don't have sensitive feelings. And you can keep your "we're sorry" to yourselves, I don't need it.

 

[Kalifornia]

I am shocked and disappointed nobody suggested the obvious. Any pilot at any carrier who is have ever flown at Gulfstream Airlines is stapled on the bottom and has to wear a road construction orange colored tie.

 

[PCL_128]

....and you just proved the below point. This was a case of interest arbitration not baseball style arbitration. There is a huge difference.

Oh, I'm well aware of the differences. In baseball style arbitration, the theory I mentioned isn't just a theory, it's a fact. In interest arbitration, both theories are valid, and either can be the smarter strategy depending on who the arbitrator is.

 

[suupah]

And I'm surprised no one has said this yet: the Colgan merger committee just made a stupid decision by publishing these final stands 5 days before the final award comes out.

The overall tone sounds heavily on the "we were at least kinda fair, the other two (xj and 9e) were just waay out there with their ideas!" It has done NOTHING but create animosity, stir up emotions, and create a bad environment. Honestly, we don't need this. Colgan shouldn't have published this. Mesaba and Pinnacle were mature enough not to do it, Colgan should have too. Had they listened to Bloch, they wouldn't have done it, though nothing explicitly forbid them from doing so, common sense dictates not to publish this before the Bloch award. Historically, arbitrators put in their award the methods that each team proposed. This is included in the history/background explanation for the SLI by the arbitrator. By Colgan saying that they wanted this information out before the final award, so pilots can see what the positions are, I ask them, "why?" The positions WILL be posted in the final SLI document by Bloch. If you want to read it, simply start reading from page 1, and you will see the history/background/method of all 3 regionals BEFORE you get to the final SLI award.

Bad move, Colgan merger committee.

Don't know anyone who is mad at Mesaba. Just that Pncl has shown their true d-bag colors

 

[xjhawk]

Yes. NWA and DAL are *two* carriers, legacies. Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan are three regional airlines, with waaay too diverse a pilot group for there to be any good 'fair' way to integrate all. Plus, the career expectations of all three are entirely different. Mesaba's certificate will be gone. That's pretty much a done deal. Management has made it clear that *because* the Mesaba Saabs are hitting the desert anyway, they will keep the Colgan side of things, but rename the certificate to Mesaba. It's very obvious why. Colgan's name is an embarassment after 3407, and Pinnacle holdings wants the name gone for good. And that's what they will get. Mesaba, which for some reason many Mesaba pilots refuse to believe, was headed down the road of furloughs and downgrades. You cannot keep the same numbers on the pilot list with nearly 40% of your fleet parked. By next year it would be only 60 CRJs and no Saabs. And since the Saabs are all gone, and the RJs migrating to Pinncale, it only makes sense to just use Colgan and call their certificate 'Mesaba.' Pinnacle's method may sound "unjust" to many, but I will say Mesaba is coming from left field and are crazy to think it should be straight-up DOH, and Colgan the same for relative.

As for Pinnacle's status and category method, it has shown historical precedent and under the circumstances of the three properties, believed it was a valid method. They understand that integration proposals can be emotional; however, they believe our proposal resulted from careful factual analysis without regard to emotional considerations.

You are a piece of work-sort of the pot calling the kettle black. How many airframes were bent at 9E? How short of a memory do you have. The certificate issues are complicated and cannot be summed up by one accident and Delta parking some Saabs. I still do not see all the saabs gone and no matter who bought Mesaba or if Mesaba was able to go at it alone there would have been work for those saabs-as is evident now.

As for professional expectations. Pinnacle has one of the largest fleets of the most inefficient aircraft and one that is being parked even right now by Delta (did I hear they had planned to park more?) Pinnacle and their union could not get a decent contract signed and ratified by its pilots. Pinnacle Holdings needed Mesaba and its ....long agreement with Delta, large fleet of profitable and stable 900's, great safety history, and a pilot group who consistently even in tough times had great numbers when their own company could not even keep their completions numbers in the green. And what I was told recently by a Pinnacle Captain that he has heard that if you guys do not do better you will lose some of your 200 flying. Now that is great career expectations that you should include in your proposal to the arbitrator.

Yes it is out of our hands but if things are done fair-not all of you dweebs will be in the top half of the seniority list -not one 10 year colgan pilot will be equal in seniority to a 20 year Pinnacle or Mesaba guy. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this guy was able to get about 10,000 Delta and NWA pilots merged without counter lawsuits so I am assuming he will not be using the warped logic of Pinnacles MEC and its negotiators.

The best thing is that 99.9% of the mesaba pilots I talk to all say they hope something fair can be brought forth and know that means everyone will have something to complain about-but what I hear from most Pinnacle pilots is the same crap you spout about.....your entitlements because you think you purchased both Pinnacle and Colgan. It might have been your past profits that bought Colgan but open your eyes and know that Delta could have GIVEN financing to anyone and anyone would have bought Mesaba because we are profitable and operate a lot better than most.

 

[DoinTime]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this guy was able to get about 10,000 Delta and NWA pilots merged without counter lawsuits so I am assuming he will not be using the warped logic of Pinnacles MEC and its negotiators.

You do realize that the NWA/DAL award used the same logic as the Pinnacle proposal, right? In fact, nearly all pilot seniority integration awards over the past couple decades have used the status and category logic to integrate. Its a shame that you don't know more about how this sh*t works.

 

[nellie2110]

It's not harsh, it's the facts. I'm not going to be PC about the Colgan crash anymore. It resulted from a complete lack of discipline, irresponsibility (the overnight commute before a trip), self-inflicted 'rest' issues, complete blatant disregard for the sterile rules, an approach to stall that, due to pulling back on the yoke, resulted in a full stall. Add on top of that the CA's lying on his applications of only 1 failure, when in reality it was 3, for a total of 5 total, it became clear to everyone (mainly the flying public) that Colgan was a typical un-audited operation with no checks/balances. You are right, Pinnacle has had its bad accidents too (the biggest/worse being Pinnacle's Jefferson City crash with the FL410 pilots). But that crash didn't lead to congressional hearings, commuting issues, pilots lying on their applications, etc.

Thank you for agreeing with Mesaba's assesment. It's true, and anyone with a brain can see the writing on the wall. I know some think they are super pilots, but even at Mesaba you cannot keep the same amount of pilots once the 3 dozen Saabs are gone. They will lose the bottom end FOs to furloughs, and the most junior Saab CAs downgraded to FOs. Both downgrades and displacments were already in the picture from now until 2012 once the Saab cuts were all done.

Wow, well then how about your sweet company record. The only reason why delta doesn't reduce your 200s is, because you guys already remove the airframes from service for them. Pinnacle has had more crews of what you just accused colgan of having(irresponsible and lack of discipline). Pinnacle has had a crew inaccurately managed a stalled aircraft and did not honor the sticker or pusher. When going after others I would first make sure your company isn't guilty of the same thing.

 

[CptMurf]

You do realize that the NWA/DAL award used the same logic as the Pinnacle proposal, right? In fact, nearly all pilot seniority integration awards over the past couple decades have used the status and category logic to integrate. Its a shame that you don't know more about how this sh*t works.

Status and Category Yes. Grouping the pilots and placing your pilots in the top 2 groups No.

Did either NWA or DAL group all of their pilots over the other? No. This is the failing of the proposed logic, not that they are integrated by Status (CA or FO) or Category (Crj900/Crj200/Q400/Sf340).

 

[bri5150]

Status and Category Yes. Grouping the pilots and placing your pilots in the top 2 groups No.

Did either NWA or DAL group all of their pilots over the other? No. This is the failing of the proposed logic, not that they are integrated by Status (CA or FO) or Category (Crj900/Crj200/Q400/Sf340).

Even grouping people by category is kinda BS if you ask me. There are people junior to me on the jet in other bases. So, because I didn't want to commute, I may get punished in SLI? Not only that, I can't go lower than those guys because that is one of the hard fast rules. You can't jump seniority on your own list. Not only that, but I was seat locked for a round of jet upgrades because I took the first available Captain position. /sigh

 

[PCL_128]

bri, it doesn't matter what you actually bid in a status and category system, it matters what you could hold. They figure out the number of slots that each category should have, and then put people in those slots based upon an assumption that every pilot would bid for the highest category. What you're actually currently bidding doesn't matter.

 

[Flyer1015]

Wow, well then how about your sweet company record. The only reason why delta doesn't reduce your 200s is, because you guys already remove the airframes from service for them. Pinnacle has had more crews of what you just accused colgan of having(irresponsible and lack of discipline). Pinnacle has had a crew inaccurately managed a stalled aircraft and did not honor the sticker or pusher. When going after others I would first make sure your company isn't guilty of the same thing.

Nah, entirely different animal. Ours were two stupid guys who pushed the envelope because it was an empty plane, and they want too far. No denying that. Yours was a case of pilot incompetency, a pilot who lied on his application to get to where he was. Had he not lied, he wouldn't have been the CA that night on that plane. Both misused crew rooms as crashpads, and one irresonsibly commuted in overnight without any adequate rest to report well-rested for duty. The airplane, pure and simple, approached to stall and they dicked it up. Everyone onboard died, and one on the ground.

 

[Flyer1015]

I still do not see all the saabs gone and no matter who bought Mesaba or if Mesaba was able to go at it alone there would have been work for those saabs-as is evident now.

Some of you guys are the biggest in-denial pilots I know. Bottom line, the Saabs are hitting the desert, and at this moment, faster than the 200s. Your attacks on Pinnacle's 200 fleet being large is not relevant. What is relevant is the Saabs being parked. After Holdings bought Mesaba, 7 of your Saabs found flying for US Airways Express, arguably, Colgan flying before. Those 7 Saabs are under a one year contract, yes? I'd be a little hesitant to pop the champagne and say the Saabs have been saved.

 

[bri5150]

Some of you guys are the biggest in-denial pilots I know. Bottom line, the Saabs are hitting the desert, and at this moment, faster than the 200s. Your attacks on Pinnacle's 200 fleet being large is not relevant. What is relevant is the Saabs being parked. After Holdings bought Mesaba, 7 of your Saabs found flying for US Airways Express, arguably, Colgan flying before. Those 7 Saabs are under a one year contract, yes? I'd be a little hesitant to pop the champagne and say the Saabs have been saved.

I would be a little hesitant to pop the champagne and say the 200's won't be cut in the next couple years. Can you at least admit we are all "f"ed? Maybe we can agree on that.

 

[bri5150]

bri, it doesn't matter what you actually bid in a status and category system, it matters what you could hold. They figure out the number of slots that each category should have, and then put people in those slots based upon an assumption that every pilot would bid for the highest category. What you're actually currently bidding doesn't matter.

Thank you, that makes more sense.

 

[LanceAir]

And I'm surprised no one has said this yet: the Colgan merger committee just made a stupid decision by publishing these final stands 5 days before the final award comes out.

The overall tone sounds heavily on the "we were at least kinda fair, the other two (xj and 9e) were just waay out there with their ideas!" It has done NOTHING but create animosity, stir up emotions, and create a bad environment. Honestly, we don't need this. Colgan shouldn't have published this. Mesaba and Pinnacle were mature enough not to do it, Colgan should have too. Had they listened to Bloch, they wouldn't have done it, though nothing explicitly forbid them from doing so, common sense dictates not to publish this before the Bloch award. Historically, arbitrators put in their award the methods that each team proposed. This is included in the history/background explanation for the SLI by the arbitrator. By Colgan saying that they wanted this information out before the final award, so pilots can see what the positions are, I ask them, "why?" The positions WILL be posted in the final SLI document by Bloch. If you want to read it, simply start reading from page 1, and you will see the history/background/method of all 3 regionals BEFORE you get to the final SLI award.

Bad move, Colgan merger committee.

Well, maybe the CJC merger committee didn't have anything to hide?
It sounds like you might be embarrassed about your merger committee.
Maybe the CJCMC thought that the truth is what it is...the truth!

If it is going to be published in the final award, what is your heartburn over the CJC merger committee informing it's pilots about something that is already done, and will be reported on in a couple days?

It was released to inform CJC pilots, not for fodder on FI.

 

[snap145]

you XJ guys are always so quick to jump the gun and stab our 200 operation and claim "if we dont get our act together Delta's gonna ax it"...id like to think you are smarter than that...THIS IS NOT FREEDOM...its not 20 airplanes its over 100 50 seaters!!!..who is gonna compensate for that..ASA?? HA!...no offense Acey guys but I know you dont have the staffing or airframes for that...and if this is the case you should be just as afraid of that outcome as it now holds your fate too...last summer 9E management made the all time greatest f-up in the history of the regionals...in an effort to pinch pennies this airline was so horrifically understaffed most of us were down to 9 or 10 days off a month flying 95+ hour lines...it is not our responsability to staff the airline, forthermore it is not our responsability to properly maintain the aircraft...our 200's are the newest in the industry...and it is completley out of our hands if the dispatch reliability goes down...its just completley arrogant and irrational to place this on the back of the 9E pilot group...PS...just wait...it will happen to your "stable" 900 operation too...

 

[Flyprdu]

Well, maybe the CJC merger committee didn't have anything to hide?
It sounds like you might be embarrassed about your merger committee.
Maybe the CJCMC thought that the truth is what it is...the truth!

A more likely scenario is that Pinnacle and Mesaba understood that it would be like throwing a pipebomb into a club. Sheer pandemonium. Tensions are already high, we don't need your MEC children stoking the fires for no reason, whatsoever.

It was released to inform CJC pilots, not for fodder on FI.

Then it's worse than we feared.. they're naive, bordering on ignorant. How could anyone possibly send an email in this day and age, and not expect it to be everywhere within minutes? One of you moderates APC. There were at least 5 of you CJC guys chomping at the bit to post this email in every thread you could find on FI.

Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan thread.. "A Message from the Colgan Air Merger Committee"

Skywest President thread.. "A Message from the Colgan Air Merger Committee"

Freedom Air Questions.. "A Message from the Colgan Air Merger Committee"

So please.. cut the crap.

 

[bri5150]

you XJ guys are always so quick to jump the gun and stab our 200 operation and claim "if we dont get our act together Delta's gonna ax it"...id like to think you are smarter than that...THIS IS NOT FREEDOM...its not 20 airplanes its over 100 50 seaters!!!..who is gonna compensate for that..ASA?? HA!...no offense Acey guys but I know you dont have the staffing or airframes for that...and if this is the case you should be just as afraid of that outcome as it now holds your fate too...last summer 9E management made the all time greatest f-up in the history of the regionals...in an effort to pinch pennies this airline was so horrifically understaffed most of us were down to 9 or 10 days off a month flying 95+ hour lines...it is not our responsability to staff the airline, forthermore it is not our responsability to properly maintain the aircraft...our 200's are the newest in the industry...and it is completley out of our hands if the dispatch reliability goes down...its just completley arrogant and irrational to place this on the back of the 9E pilot group...PS...just wait...it will happen to your "stable" 900 operation too...

Do you have any idea what Delta has said? We are not saying if you don't get your numbers up you/we are going to lose them to another airline. We are saying Delta doesn't want them PERIOD. The fact you have 100+ of them IS the problem. How many total 200's does Delta want? Split that number by what, five airlines? I bet in Delta's world they want a total of less than 100 of them. That's what we are saying. Not that you will lose them to another airline. I bet there is some type of ratio offered (for example 3 200 losses to 1 900/700 airframe from Comair when it is shut down (I honest to god hope Comair doesn't get shut down)) ala ASA's way of getting the 900's destined for Mesaba (which was to prevent furloughs there and caused furloughs at Mesaba, thanks Delta. Oh, and they didn't lose the 200's either. They just flew them over to Vietnam). That is the only way I can see Pinnacolaba retaining some pilot jobs in the coming years. I still don't see how we can retain enough flying for 2,500 pilots, and nobody has came up with an idea on how it's going to happen. If you aren't top 1,000 after SLI, I am pretty sure you should be looking at moving on. Of course, don't make your career decision based on my logic though.