PNCL: Class personified!! wow., just wow

[Flyer1015]

And I'm surprised no one has said this yet: the Colgan merger committee just made a stupid decision by publishing these final stands 5 days before the final award comes out.

The overall tone sounds heavily on the "we were at least kinda fair, the other two (xj and 9e) were just waay out there with their ideas!" It has done NOTHING but create animosity, stir up emotions, and create a bad environment. Honestly, we don't need this. Colgan shouldn't have published this. Mesaba and Pinnacle were mature enough not to do it, Colgan should have too. Had they listened to Bloch, they wouldn't have done it, though nothing explicitly forbid them from doing so, common sense dictates not to publish this before the Bloch award. Historically, arbitrators put in their award the methods that each team proposed. This is included in the history/background explanation for the SLI by the arbitrator. By Colgan saying that they wanted this information out before the final award, so pilots can see what the positions are, I ask them, "why?" The positions WILL be posted in the final SLI document by Bloch. If you want to read it, simply start reading from page 1, and you will see the history/background/method of all 3 regionals BEFORE you get to the final SLI award.

Bad move, Colgan merger committee.

 

[Airscrew]

And I'm surprised no one has said this yet: the Colgan merger committee just made a stupid decision by publishing these final stands 5 days before the final award comes out.

The overall tone sounds heavily on the "we were at least kinda fair, the other two (xj and 9e) were just waay out there with their ideas!" It has done NOTHING but create animosity, stir up emotions, and create a bad environment. Honestly, we don't need this. Colgan shouldn't have published this. Mesaba and Pinnacle were mature enough not to do it, Colgan should have too. Had they listened to Bloch, they wouldn't have done it, though nothing explicitly forbid them from doing so, common sense dictates not to publish this before the Bloch award. Historically, arbitrators put in their award the methods that each team proposed. This is included in the history/background explanation for the SLI by the arbitrator. By Colgan saying that they wanted this information out before the final award, so pilots can see what the positions are, I ask them, "why?" The positions WILL be posted in the final SLI document by Bloch. If you want to read it, simply start reading from page 1, and you will see the history/background/method of all 3 regionals BEFORE you get to the final SLI award.

Bad move, Colgan merger committee.

Stop whining, sorry we hurt your sensitive feelings. It's out of your and my hands.

 

[Flyer1015]

Stop whining, sorry we hurt your sensitive feelings. It's out of your and my hands.

I don't have sensitive feelings. And you can keep your "we're sorry" to yourselves, I don't need it.

 

[Kalifornia]

I am shocked and disappointed nobody suggested the obvious. Any pilot at any carrier who is have ever flown at Gulfstream Airlines is stapled on the bottom and has to wear a road construction orange colored tie.

 

[PCL_128]

....and you just proved the below point. This was a case of interest arbitration not baseball style arbitration. There is a huge difference.

Oh, I'm well aware of the differences. In baseball style arbitration, the theory I mentioned isn't just a theory, it's a fact. In interest arbitration, both theories are valid, and either can be the smarter strategy depending on who the arbitrator is.

 

[suupah]

And I'm surprised no one has said this yet: the Colgan merger committee just made a stupid decision by publishing these final stands 5 days before the final award comes out.

The overall tone sounds heavily on the "we were at least kinda fair, the other two (xj and 9e) were just waay out there with their ideas!" It has done NOTHING but create animosity, stir up emotions, and create a bad environment. Honestly, we don't need this. Colgan shouldn't have published this. Mesaba and Pinnacle were mature enough not to do it, Colgan should have too. Had they listened to Bloch, they wouldn't have done it, though nothing explicitly forbid them from doing so, common sense dictates not to publish this before the Bloch award. Historically, arbitrators put in their award the methods that each team proposed. This is included in the history/background explanation for the SLI by the arbitrator. By Colgan saying that they wanted this information out before the final award, so pilots can see what the positions are, I ask them, "why?" The positions WILL be posted in the final SLI document by Bloch. If you want to read it, simply start reading from page 1, and you will see the history/background/method of all 3 regionals BEFORE you get to the final SLI award.

Bad move, Colgan merger committee.

Don't know anyone who is mad at Mesaba. Just that Pncl has shown their true d-bag colors

 

[xjhawk]

Yes. NWA and DAL are *two* carriers, legacies. Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan are three regional airlines, with waaay too diverse a pilot group for there to be any good 'fair' way to integrate all. Plus, the career expectations of all three are entirely different. Mesaba's certificate will be gone. That's pretty much a done deal. Management has made it clear that *because* the Mesaba Saabs are hitting the desert anyway, they will keep the Colgan side of things, but rename the certificate to Mesaba. It's very obvious why. Colgan's name is an embarassment after 3407, and Pinnacle holdings wants the name gone for good. And that's what they will get. Mesaba, which for some reason many Mesaba pilots refuse to believe, was headed down the road of furloughs and downgrades. You cannot keep the same numbers on the pilot list with nearly 40% of your fleet parked. By next year it would be only 60 CRJs and no Saabs. And since the Saabs are all gone, and the RJs migrating to Pinncale, it only makes sense to just use Colgan and call their certificate 'Mesaba.' Pinnacle's method may sound "unjust" to many, but I will say Mesaba is coming from left field and are crazy to think it should be straight-up DOH, and Colgan the same for relative.

As for Pinnacle's status and category method, it has shown historical precedent and under the circumstances of the three properties, believed it was a valid method. They understand that integration proposals can be emotional; however, they believe our proposal resulted from careful factual analysis without regard to emotional considerations.

You are a piece of work-sort of the pot calling the kettle black. How many airframes were bent at 9E? How short of a memory do you have. The certificate issues are complicated and cannot be summed up by one accident and Delta parking some Saabs. I still do not see all the saabs gone and no matter who bought Mesaba or if Mesaba was able to go at it alone there would have been work for those saabs-as is evident now.

As for professional expectations. Pinnacle has one of the largest fleets of the most inefficient aircraft and one that is being parked even right now by Delta (did I hear they had planned to park more?) Pinnacle and their union could not get a decent contract signed and ratified by its pilots. Pinnacle Holdings needed Mesaba and its ....long agreement with Delta, large fleet of profitable and stable 900's, great safety history, and a pilot group who consistently even in tough times had great numbers when their own company could not even keep their completions numbers in the green. And what I was told recently by a Pinnacle Captain that he has heard that if you guys do not do better you will lose some of your 200 flying. Now that is great career expectations that you should include in your proposal to the arbitrator.

Yes it is out of our hands but if things are done fair-not all of you dweebs will be in the top half of the seniority list -not one 10 year colgan pilot will be equal in seniority to a 20 year Pinnacle or Mesaba guy. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this guy was able to get about 10,000 Delta and NWA pilots merged without counter lawsuits so I am assuming he will not be using the warped logic of Pinnacles MEC and its negotiators.

The best thing is that 99.9% of the mesaba pilots I talk to all say they hope something fair can be brought forth and know that means everyone will have something to complain about-but what I hear from most Pinnacle pilots is the same crap you spout about.....your entitlements because you think you purchased both Pinnacle and Colgan. It might have been your past profits that bought Colgan but open your eyes and know that Delta could have GIVEN financing to anyone and anyone would have bought Mesaba because we are profitable and operate a lot better than most.

 

[DoinTime]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this guy was able to get about 10,000 Delta and NWA pilots merged without counter lawsuits so I am assuming he will not be using the warped logic of Pinnacles MEC and its negotiators.

You do realize that the NWA/DAL award used the same logic as the Pinnacle proposal, right? In fact, nearly all pilot seniority integration awards over the past couple decades have used the status and category logic to integrate. Its a shame that you don't know more about how this sh*t works.

 

[nellie2110]

It's not harsh, it's the facts. I'm not going to be PC about the Colgan crash anymore. It resulted from a complete lack of discipline, irresponsibility (the overnight commute before a trip), self-inflicted 'rest' issues, complete blatant disregard for the sterile rules, an approach to stall that, due to pulling back on the yoke, resulted in a full stall. Add on top of that the CA's lying on his applications of only 1 failure, when in reality it was 3, for a total of 5 total, it became clear to everyone (mainly the flying public) that Colgan was a typical un-audited operation with no checks/balances. You are right, Pinnacle has had its bad accidents too (the biggest/worse being Pinnacle's Jefferson City crash with the FL410 pilots). But that crash didn't lead to congressional hearings, commuting issues, pilots lying on their applications, etc.

Thank you for agreeing with Mesaba's assesment. It's true, and anyone with a brain can see the writing on the wall. I know some think they are super pilots, but even at Mesaba you cannot keep the same amount of pilots once the 3 dozen Saabs are gone. They will lose the bottom end FOs to furloughs, and the most junior Saab CAs downgraded to FOs. Both downgrades and displacments were already in the picture from now until 2012 once the Saab cuts were all done.

Wow, well then how about your sweet company record. The only reason why delta doesn't reduce your 200s is, because you guys already remove the airframes from service for them. Pinnacle has had more crews of what you just accused colgan of having(irresponsible and lack of discipline). Pinnacle has had a crew inaccurately managed a stalled aircraft and did not honor the sticker or pusher. When going after others I would first make sure your company isn't guilty of the same thing.

 

[CptMurf]

You do realize that the NWA/DAL award used the same logic as the Pinnacle proposal, right? In fact, nearly all pilot seniority integration awards over the past couple decades have used the status and category logic to integrate. Its a shame that you don't know more about how this sh*t works.

Status and Category Yes. Grouping the pilots and placing your pilots in the top 2 groups No.

Did either NWA or DAL group all of their pilots over the other? No. This is the failing of the proposed logic, not that they are integrated by Status (CA or FO) or Category (Crj900/Crj200/Q400/Sf340).