PNCL: Class personified!! wow., just wow

[higney85]

Not Sli related, but 50 seater related. The routes will still need to be flown. That means either larger RJ's or more mainline jets. For more "large" RJ's there would be a need of scope restriction relaxation. Without scope being loosened we are looking at more mainline jobs coming from regional ranks. Personally, I want to see the majors (as in pilots/unions) attempt to ring in scope (as in require more mainline jets and less RJ's). That gives us all far larger opportunities opposed to bickering over RJ's. Attrition due to retirement and post-recessionary (cause/effect) understaffing will bring movement to everyone on the list (in all ranges except the top). Further 50 seat cuts may "shrink" the pilot need at the regionals, but more than enhance the progression to a major. Staffing alone at majors is much higher per airframe then regionals.

 

[DoinTime]

DOH works out better for a higher % of Pinnacle pilots since 2004 you took delivery of what....70 planes while Mesaba since 2007/8 took delivery of only 41. So all your posturing and lies are all to screw your own bottom half of the list. And by proposing what your MEC (negotiators) proposed is based on lies. From what I hear was not backed up by ANY real evidence, unlike other proposals brought forth during mediation.

Pinnacle's fleet was fully delivered by the end of 2004. We have 2 more aircraft today than we did 7 years ago. I know that doesn't support your distorted story of self pity and blame placing but whatever....you are hardly a figure of competence and nobody looks to you for a view of reality.

DOH works very well for for the high longevity pilots at Mesaba (thats why the XJ committee proposed it) and some Pinnacle FOs. In a nutshell DOH would result in a list that was highly segregated most visibly in the captain ranks with Mesaba dominating the top end, PCL occupying the middle, and CJC bringing up the rear.

Ultimately, this isn't an exercise in integrating longevity, its an exercise in integrating seniority. Seniority and longevity are two vastly different things. Thats why arbitrators haven't used DOH for pilot seniority integration in over 20 years. The most probable scenario on how this will go will be a ratioed/relative status and category just like almost all arbitrated pilot seniority integrations in recent memory. The questions will be what defines the categories, what order will they be placed and what the fences will be (if any).

For the upcoming award I have my money on 6 tiers ordered like this:

- Turbojet CA
- Turboprop CA
- Turbojet FO
- Turboprop FO
- Furloughs
- Pilots hired after 7/1/10

I'm not saying anything to the perceived merits of my guessed outcome but there is no magic in modern pilot seniority integration. Its a process that is fairly simple to understand with an afternoon's worth of reading yet so many would rather chase their own ideology on what they 'think' is fair and what their 'view' of the integration is like somehow they are the first pilots to ever integrate seniority. These ideologues will trudge around for years b*tching about how they got screwed and in some cases (i.e., US Air) cause irreparable harm to the profession.

Neither the MSA or CJC proposals gripped the reality of how this thing is almost certainly going to go. Say what you will about the PCL proposal but at least its oriented towards some sort of reality. Was it over the top to place Turbojet FOs over Turboprop CAs? Probably, but this was a proposal to an arbitrator in an interest arbitration. You have to propose some things that you don't expect to get. Thats just how interest arbitration works.

 

[Flyer1015]

Pinnacle's fleet was fully delivered by the end of 2004. We have 2 more aircraft today than we did 7 years ago. I know that doesn't support your distorted story of self pity and blame placing but whatever....you are hardly a figure of competence and nobody looks to you for a view of reality.

DOH works very well for for the high longevity pilots at Mesaba (thats why the XJ committee proposed it) and some Pinnacle FOs. In a nutshell DOH would result in a list that was highly segregated most visibly in the captain ranks with Mesaba dominating the top end, PCL occupying the middle, and CJC bringing up the rear.

Ultimately, this isn't an exercise in integrating longevity, its an exercise in integrating seniority. Seniority and longevity are two vastly different things. Thats why arbitrators haven't used DOH for pilot seniority integration in over 20 years. The most probable scenario on how this will go will be a ratioed/relative status and category just like almost all arbitrated pilot seniority integrations in recent memory. The questions will be what defines the categories, what order will they be placed and what the fences will be (if any).

For the upcoming award I have my money on 6 tiers ordered like this:

- Turbojet CA
- Turboprop CA
- Turbojet FO
- Turboprop FO
- Furloughs
- Pilots hired after 7/1/10

I'm not saying anything to the perceived merits of my guessed outcome but there is no magic in modern pilot seniority integration. Its a process that is fairly simple to understand with an afternoon's worth of reading yet so many would rather chase their own ideology on what they 'think' is fair and what their 'view' of the integration is like somehow they are the first pilots to ever integrate seniority. These ideologues will trudge around for years b*tching about how they got screwed and in some cases (i.e., US Air) cause irreparable harm to the profession.

Neither the MSA or CJC proposals gripped the reality of how this thing is almost certainly going to go. Say what you will about the PCL proposal but at least its oriented towards some sort of reality. Was it over the top to place Turbojet FOs over Turboprop CAs? Probably, but this was a proposal to an arbitrator in an interest arbitration. You have to propose some things that you don't expect to get. Thats just how interest arbitration works.

Excellent post!

 

[bri5150]

Not Sli related, but 50 seater related. The routes will still need to be flown. That means either larger RJ's or more mainline jets. For more "large" RJ's there would be a need of scope restriction relaxation. Without scope being loosened we are looking at more mainline jobs coming from regional ranks. Personally, I want to see the majors (as in pilots/unions) attempt to ring in scope (as in require more mainline jets and less RJ's). That gives us all far larger opportunities opposed to bickering over RJ's. Attrition due to retirement and post-recessionary (cause/effect) understaffing will bring movement to everyone on the list (in all ranges except the top). Further 50 seat cuts may "shrink" the pilot need at the regionals, but more than enhance the progression to a major. Staffing alone at majors is much higher per airframe then regionals.

I could not agree more with you.

 

[bri5150]

Pinnacle's fleet was fully delivered by the end of 2004. We have 2 more aircraft today than we did 7 years ago. I know that doesn't support your distorted story of self pity and blame placing but whatever....you are hardly a figure of competence and nobody looks to you for a view of reality.

DOH works very well for for the high longevity pilots at Mesaba (thats why the XJ committee proposed it) and some Pinnacle FOs. In a nutshell DOH would result in a list that was highly segregated most visibly in the captain ranks with Mesaba dominating the top end, PCL occupying the middle, and CJC bringing up the rear.

Ultimately, this isn't an exercise in integrating longevity, its an exercise in integrating seniority. Seniority and longevity are two vastly different things. Thats why arbitrators haven't used DOH for pilot seniority integration in over 20 years. The most probable scenario on how this will go will be a ratioed/relative status and category just like almost all arbitrated pilot seniority integrations in recent memory. The questions will be what defines the categories, what order will they be placed and what the fences will be (if any).

For the upcoming award I have my money on 6 tiers ordered like this:

- Turbojet CA
- Turboprop CA
- Turbojet FO
- Turboprop FO
- Furloughs
- Pilots hired after 7/1/10

I'm not saying anything to the perceived merits of my guessed outcome but there is no magic in modern pilot seniority integration. Its a process that is fairly simple to understand with an afternoon's worth of reading yet so many would rather chase their own ideology on what they 'think' is fair and what their 'view' of the integration is like somehow they are the first pilots to ever integrate seniority. These ideologues will trudge around for years b*tching about how they got screwed and in some cases (i.e., US Air) cause irreparable harm to the profession.

Neither the MSA or CJC proposals gripped the reality of how this thing is almost certainly going to go. Say what you will about the PCL proposal but at least its oriented towards some sort of reality. Was it over the top to place Turbojet FOs over Turboprop CAs? Probably, but this was a proposal to an arbitrator in an interest arbitration. You have to propose some things that you don't expect to get. Thats just how interest arbitration works.

I agree that longevity and seniority are completely different things, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't both be included in seniorty integration. If we didn't use longevity at all, then it should be straight relative, and I am pretty sure you would be pissed if a 2 year Colgan pilot got put ahead of you if you were a 7 year guy (of course I am making up the numbers but you get the point). I think the proposal of DOH is way more acceptable than the "probably" over the top Pinnacle proposal. If you were to ask a third party (or fourth in this situation I guess) how you would integrate employee lists, DOH would be one of the top two answers. Cutting some out of the middle and putting them at the bottom would not be one of the answers at all, because it makes no sense.

 

[Flyer1015]

deleted

 

[bri5150]

deleted

Uh oh...Flyer posts this after my post and now his name is red. Does that mean he ignored me? Time to go shed a tear.

 

[higney85]

Uh oh...Flyer posts this after my post and now his name is red. Does that mean he ignored me? Time to go shed a tear.

I don't think so. Maybe he got banned and a mod deleted it. I think if you ignore someone it shows they posted and says "this user is on your ignored list..."(something like that) where their post would be.

 

[DoinTime]

If you were to ask a third party (or fourth in this situation I guess) how you would integrate employee lists, DOH would be one of the top two answers.

Are you referring to asking an unknowledgeable fourth party or someone who has a base of knowledge on the subject? If its the latter, your assumption would be wrong.

 

[bri5150]

Are you referring to asking an unknowledgeable fourth party or someone who has a base of knowledge on the subject? If its the latter, your assumption would be wrong.

I am talking about someone with a good base of common sense. Kinda like asking that same person if the only thing that should go into SLI is the amount of aicraft you have/scheduled to have, or should other factors be used as well, like gains from contracts, existing staffing models, quality of employees in key spots (training, union, management pilots...), flow loss, safety records, stuff like that. Maybe he will only look at our aircraft situation and decide based on that. I hope not, but it's possible. That's the only criteria I hear coming from Pinnacle pilots on this board and the Pinnacle MEC. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it's somewhere between relative and DOH, I will call it fair and be happy. If some categories are cut out and stuck on the bottom, that will be pretty ********************ty, but I will get over it and hope I am in the upper categories I guess.

Listen, I am trying to put up a good fight, but I have a horrible feeling Mesaba's pilot group will be split in two and the bottom half will get a ratio. I also think there will be huge fences. Because of what I stated above, I think that is unfair. The aircraft aren't the only things that should be involved. It's just easy to look at that and say we should be split. I understand the Pinnacle view point, but I think it is too narrow minded, that's all. The sky wasn't falling for me before the aquisition, so I would hate to have the arbitrator tell me the sky was falling and screw me over.

 

[bri5150]

I don't think so. Maybe he got banned and a mod deleted it. I think if you ignore someone it shows they posted and says "this user is on your ignored list..."(something like that) where their post would be.

I would have thought that if I ignored him. Either way, come back Flyer!! You are providing too much entertainment for me!! I would hate to lose your viewpoint and arguing like heck with you!!

 

[suupah]

Pinnacle's fleet was fully delivered by the end of 2004. We have 2 more aircraft today than we did 7 years ago. I know that doesn't support your distorted story of self pity and blame placing but whatever....you are hardly a figure of competence and nobody looks to you for a view of reality.

DOH works very well for for the high longevity pilots at Mesaba (thats why the XJ committee proposed it) and some Pinnacle FOs. In a nutshell DOH would result in a list that was highly segregated most visibly in the captain ranks with Mesaba dominating the top end, PCL occupying the middle, and CJC bringing up the rear.

Ultimately, this isn't an exercise in integrating longevity, its an exercise in integrating seniority. Seniority and longevity are two vastly different things. Thats why arbitrators haven't used DOH for pilot seniority integration in over 20 years. The most probable scenario on how this will go will be a ratioed/relative status and category just like almost all arbitrated pilot seniority integrations in recent memory. The questions will be what defines the categories, what order will they be placed and what the fences will be (if any).

For the upcoming award I have my money on 6 tiers ordered like this:

- Turbojet CA
- Turboprop CA
- Turbojet FO
- Turboprop FO
- Furloughs
- Pilots hired after 7/1/10

I'm not saying anything to the perceived merits of my guessed outcome but there is no magic in modern pilot seniority integration. Its a process that is fairly simple to understand with an afternoon's worth of reading yet so many would rather chase their own ideology on what they 'think' is fair and what their 'view' of the integration is like somehow they are the first pilots to ever integrate seniority. These ideologues will trudge around for years b*tching about how they got screwed and in some cases (i.e., US Air) cause irreparable harm to the profession.

Neither the MSA or CJC proposals gripped the reality of how this thing is almost certainly going to go. Say what you will about the PCL proposal but at least its oriented towards some sort of reality. Was it over the top to place Turbojet FOs over Turboprop CAs? Probably, but this was a proposal to an arbitrator in an interest arbitration. You have to propose some things that you don't expect to get. Thats just how interest arbitration works.

i think the groups will be more along the lines of longevity. There is a group at mesaba and pncl that have much longer longevity than anyone at colgan. It's sort of impossible to fairly integrate them Our top guy has 20 years, with very very very few more than ten year guys on property whereas XJ and 9E have a sizable group from the 90's. I'll arbitrarily say the 80's will be a group then 90's then everyone else.

I just don't see the Turbojet/prop groups being considered that significantly different at this level. It's not like we're talking wide-body 74 vs 73's here.

In the end my opinion is worth about as much as paper this thread is printed on.

 

[SEVEN]

I love this email!!!

Here is the Pinnacle email:

Seniority List Integration

This week, Mr. Block, the arbitrator who is presiding over our seniority list integration, notified all 3 merger committees that his Decision and Award is almost complete and will be released on or before next Friday, May 20.
In the mean time, all pilots need to begin mentally preparing for a decision which may or may not be viewed as favorable when considered by the individual pilot. With the exception of one or two of our pilots, every pilot can expect to move down the Integrated Seniority List exponentially when compared to their current seniority standing.

Also remember in this integration there is no “bumping” and no “flushing” of the seniority list. With respect to your current vacancy award, no one can be removed from their position solely as a result of the arbitrator’s award.
Once we accept these facts, we can begin to move forward as one company, making this merger a success and working together with our brethren from Mesaba and Colgan as new colleagues





Looks like the 9E union leadership sees the writing on the wall. There will be NO windfall! How dare you bring this nonsense proposal to Block. As I have said before, they have shot themselves in the foot.

 

[RJLoser]

So, seven you are number 500 at PCL. Do you expect to be 450 on the new list? Seven, you need to do some soul searching. You want to make the new place a good place? If not, keep it up.

 

[SEVEN]

So, seven you are number 500 at PCL. Do you expect to be 450 on the new list? Seven, you need to do some soul searching. You want to make the new place a good place? If not, keep it up.

Hey man, don't preach to me. I have been shouting for fair integration from day one unlike the secret majority at Pinnacle who seeks to destroy me and my colleagues. I am just holding up the mirror to the 9E MEC nonsense. I know I will most likely lose a few numbers, but if it were your way I would lose much more than that. This will be a good place to work for you soon, no thanks to any of your leadership. You know it and so do I.

 

[RJLoser]

Hey man, don't preach to me. I have been shouting for fair integration from day one unlike the secret majority at Pinnacle who seeks to destroy me and my colleagues. I am just holding up the mirror to the 9E MEC nonsense. I know I will most likely lose a few numbers, but if it were your way I would lose much more than that. This will be a good place to work for you soon, no thanks to any of your leadership. You know it and so do I.

Seven, you have no idea how I feel about my leadership. I'm looking past that to working with you and the colgan guys. I have come across some great people at XJ and 9L. I can see the change since the letter was released. Not a single XJ pilot made eye contact with me this whole trip. The ruling went to arbitration..... there was ZERO point in releasing the letter. FAIR OR NOT. If PCL did not have their stance this may have not gone to arbitration. That is why things go to arbitration. If you think I want to put a senior CA looking out for his family behind an FO you just don't get it. I too will lose numbers.

 

[SEVEN]

Seven, you have no idea how I feel about my leadership. I'm looking past that to working with you and the colgan guys. I have come across some great people at XJ and 9L. I can see the change since the letter was released. Not a single XJ pilot made eye contact with me this whole trip. The ruling went to arbitration..... there was ZERO point in releasing the letter. FAIR OR NOT. If PCL did not have their stance this may have not gone to arbitration. That is why things go to arbitration. If you think I want to put a senior CA looking out for his family behind an FO you just don't get it. I too will lose numbers.

Great. I'm glad we can at least agree on one thing. SLI get-together at Captain Murphs this weekend! I'll bring the ribs.

 

[RJLoser]

Great. I'm glad we can at least agree on one thing. SLI get-together at Captain Murphs this weekend! I'll bring the ribs.

Sounds good man.

 

[CptMurf]

Unfortunately, I have to work this weekend. But tell my wife and kids that I said "Hi!"

 

[xjhawk]

Okay-why would xj pilots not make eye contact with you? Because you poor pilots at 9E will "lose" end up getting a higher seniority number? Oh give me a break-its simple math to know you will end up with a lower number when the total number of pilots on the new list is a lot higher. There is not one pilot at Xj that would lower their eyes and not make eye contact over your MEC's idiotic letter. Oh and not one 9E Captain, especially a senior captain will end up behind a Jr FO from any of the three lists. The only instance a FO might end up senior to a captain is if one of the very senior FO's at 9E of XJ end up more senior to a "senior" Colgan pilot. There will (might) be an instance where a jr colgan captain would end up Jr to one of ours and yours 4 year FO's. I believe the wording in the ALPA's merger policy is fair and equitable and no windfall. I should think getting a 25-30% pay raise, better work rules, and the opportunity to bid into a higher paying jet would be enough benefit from this merger. But apparently everyone there wants to make a grab at getting double or triple their bidding power in seniority. I sure hope the arbitrator does not think a ten year colgan guy is equal in seniority as a 20 year 9E or XJ pilot. or for that matter-a 2 year colgan new upgrade captain is equal to a 8-10 year Mesaba guy. But it is all in the arbitrator's hands and I just hope his logic benefits "most" of the pilots in all three groups. I might point out that DOH is that logic-that benefits most pilots. I say this knowing that it benefits more 9E pilots than Xj pilots, and more XJ pilots than colgan pilots. it is rather interesting that 9E did not propose DOH integration and instead went the greedy route and wanted something along the lines of a republic merger. I too await my fate on this decision.