Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan SLI!

[Flyer1015]

It's slightly entertaining. I don't want any one group to get totally hosed. I'm not the "staple 'em all" crowd. The arbitrator, a single man, will decide the QOL for over 3000 pilots. Good luck to us all, we'll need it.

 

[FOrever85]

Are you bi-polar, or did your beer muscles wear off. I am going to guess you, like most of your pilots, were in high school when that LOA passed. And like most of the pilots that spout this LOA BS, you do not understand it. NOT THAT IT MATTERS BECAUSE FOR THE 1000th TIME IT DOES NOT MATTER, GET OVER IT!

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

It's slightly entertaining. I don't want any one group to get totally hosed. I'm not the "staple 'em all" crowd. The arbitrator, a single man, will decide the QOL for over 3000 pilots. Good luck to us all, we'll need it.

Nah, I'm pretty sure he's married....

 

[xjhawk]

I like how these pinnacle guys (not all of you) bring up these useless arguments to justify your wanting to do a screw job on Colgan and Mesaba.

The letter of Agreement from back in the 90's-Do you have a clue on how that went down? Have you flown with and talked with those guys to find out their opinion on the matter? DO any of you know that they are fullly Mesaba pilots and do not feel like they were screwed when MEsaba extended GOOD WILL and gave them an opportunity. Oh and when Pinnacle's MEC would not return the favor when we were in bankruptcy-I am sure it made any future attempt at that letter null and void. I think it expired anyways.

You really think the republic model of screwing and stapling applies to this situation? They were not all ALPA-we have rules to abide by. end of story.

That the Saabs were leaving...blaw blaw blaw.... therefore you did not have good career expectations. Ha, guess what? Delta has changed their minds on how they think of Props-but they have not changed their minds on how they think of the crj 200. I think this....if Delta were no matter what going to sell or GIVE Mesaba away to anyone, the Saab program is and should be seen as an asset. Same can be said about our large amount of crj 900's and small number of crj 200's, ASSET. Let me remind you that Pinnacle has a very large fleet of crj 200's and small number of 900's. If it were not for the great potential of Colgans Q400's I think Pinnacle might have been hurting (but Colgans Q program needed new blood to lead it out of its .....troubles). Enter Delta's offer to finance the sale of Mesaba (even though Skywest did not need Delta's financing to buy but Delta did not want too many eggs in one basket - see Comair as an example)

The most important factor in a fair (everyone gets screwed) integration and not the the staple or ratio that some idiots at Pinnacle want (Pinnacle Pete)-Your airline did not buy us, your parent company did-who also owns Colgan-who is also in this with Mesaba. So just because you share a name with your parent company does not make you special.

So you see.......and hopefully that Arbitrator can see the many different factors involved in this situation.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Not that it matters right now, but the LOA is still active. The fact that most of us were not on property doesn't change that fact. It seems that people on both sides haven't read the actual text of the LOA to see when it is called into effect and what would happen if it were "activated".

Bloch may very well consider the LOA when making his decision as all variables should ve taken into account.

 

[mesaba13]

The big difference back when that happened is that mesaba Airlines did not have to take a single Express pilot, none. Many Mesaba pilots moved down our list when this happened but agreed to it anyway. There was no language in any contract that said they had to be employed.

 

[CptMurf]

The closest example I could think of would be...
If 9E offered Freedom pilots to merge into the 9E list based on their current Freedom seniority, because you opened a JFK base and realize that you ultimately took their flying. I'm pretty sure you did not contemplate that at all, but that is what the LOA was for, and how it was applied.

 

[SEVEN]

The big difference back when that happened is that mesaba Airlines did not have to take a single Express pilot, none. Many Mesaba pilots moved down our list when this happened but agreed to it anyway. There was no language in any contract that said they had to be employed.

This is why the arbitrator will not use the LOA 9E argument. It isn't applicable in this situation. Apples & oranges. Unfortunately too many 9E pilots can't tell the difference between an apple and an orange. Just a little tip: one is red and the other is orange.

 

[Flyer1015]

The most important factor in a fair (everyone gets screwed) integration and not the the staple or ratio that some idiots at Pinnacle want (Pinnacle Pete)-Your airline did not buy us, your parent company did-who also owns Colgan-who is also in this with Mesaba. So just because you share a name with your parent company does not make you special.

That holdings thing was just a shell game, to get around our scope clause. Pinnacle Airlines became "Pinnacle Airlines inc" and we were held by "Pinnacle Airlines Holdings." It was then "Holdings" bought Colgan and operated it as a stand-alone carrier. It was 100% pure B.S. to circumvent our scope.

Here are a couple points.

1. Pinnacle Airlines creates Pinnacle corp. Pinnacle corp then buys Colgan. Colgan grows exponentially while Pinnacle inc pilots are downgraded and displaced. Not 1 downgrade and displacement but 2.

2. Few years later Pinnacle corp buys Mesaba. Mesaba was losing their saabs but Pinnacle Corp was able to find more flying for some of them. Mesaba pilots are recalled and get more flying for their planes.

3. At the same time Mesaba pilots are being recalled 100 Pinnacle pilots are displaced out of Memphis and 50 Pinnacle pilots were displaced out of Minneapolis. This is going on while there are mesaba pilots junior to the pinnacle pilots in both bases flying the same equipment. So in essence pinnacle pilots were kicked out of their bases while junior Mesaba pilots are still there.

There are a lot of guys who were forced out that are senior to their Mesaba counter parts in both bases. Once again pinnacle pilots get the shaft. We have had 0 growth over the last 3 years. Colgan has grown by leaps and bounds. Mesaba was furloughing and parking saabs. Pinnacle buys them and finds more flying for the Mesaba pilots. Pinnacle pilots still stagnant with no growth.

 

[Flyer1015]

This is why the arbitrator will not....

Seven, unless you are arbitrator Bloch himself, NO ONE knows what the arbitrator will or will not do.

Weren't you the arrogant pilot who badmouthed 9E as an unsafe operation and that you'd never be caught working here? So what will it be? Will you resign outright, or bid over to the props to stay 'Mesaba'?

 

[SEVEN]

Seven, unless you are arbitrator Bloch himself, NO ONE knows what the arbitrator will or will not do.

Weren't you the arrogant pilot who badmouthed 9E as an unsafe operation and that you'd never be caught working here? So what will it be? Will you resign outright, or bid over to the props to stay 'Mesaba'?

I am already on the prop at Mesaba. And just for the record. 9e was an unsafe operation based on the facts. That was then. Currently, it appears that lots of changes were made in the last 2 years in the training department and the incidents and violations have dropped off dramatically. Stating obvious facts with data to back it up is hardly bashing. That's called being honest and telling the truth.

 

[xjhawk]

Flyer, to think that you have more senior pilots (at least on the 200 in MInneapolis) who have been displaced is reaching a bit. I am like 10 from the bottom of our 200 list and I have been here 8 years. Have any MSP 200 CA's at 9E that has more than 7 years been displaced? I think not. FO's might be a different story. As for MEM- well its hard to compare our 900 to your 200 list down there. AND I think you would be surprised to find out how senior our 900 MEM base really is. I should think that if you think you are informed, then maybe you should really look into the LOA and ask someone who came over to MEsaba how it worked all those years ago and what the circumstances were to see if it would apply today. If you did I am sure you would agree that IT DOES NOT APPLY It would have applied if 9E would have allowed the same deal when we were in bankruptcy and you were growing. I think that because you guys said no to the deal then, I think it pretty much meant the LOA is not an issue.

I was talking to a guy the other day and the thought occurred that an easy way to do this would be....... DOH between Mesaba and Pinnacle and then from that new list, do a relative with Colgan. yeah I know, "windfall" for colgan. it would suck for many reasons.

Colgan would get super credit on seniority
most of Mesaba's FO's would be Jr to Pinnacles FO's
Mesaba's super senior guys would dominate the top of the list pissing off the Pinnacle guys.

 

[Ridgeback]

That holdings thing was just a shell game, to get around our scope clause. Pinnacle Airlines became "Pinnacle Airlines inc" and we were held by "Pinnacle Airlines Holdings." It was then "Holdings" bought Colgan and operated it as a stand-alone carrier. It was 100% pure B.S. to circumvent our scope.

Here are a couple points.

1. Pinnacle Airlines creates Pinnacle corp. Pinnacle corp then buys Colgan. Colgan grows exponentially while Pinnacle inc pilots are downgraded and displaced. Not 1 downgrade and displacement but 2.

2. Few years later Pinnacle corp buys Mesaba. Mesaba was losing their saabs but Pinnacle Corp was able to find more flying for some of them. Mesaba pilots are recalled and get more flying for their planes.

3. At the same time Mesaba pilots are being recalled 100 Pinnacle pilots are displaced out of Memphis and 50 Pinnacle pilots were displaced out of Minneapolis. This is going on while there are mesaba pilots junior to the pinnacle pilots in both bases flying the same equipment. So in essence pinnacle pilots were kicked out of their bases while junior Mesaba pilots are still there.

There are a lot of guys who were forced out that are senior to their Mesaba counter parts in both bases. Once again pinnacle pilots get the shaft. We have had 0 growth over the last 3 years. Colgan has grown by leaps and bounds. Mesaba was furloughing and parking saabs. Pinnacle buys them and finds more flying for the Mesaba pilots. Pinnacle pilots still stagnant with no growth.

How does Mesaba have anything to do with ASA bringing a crap load of crjs to mephis?

 

[FOrever85]

Flyer if you are mad at what Mesaba did in 97, you must be really pissed at ASA. Delta gave ASA some of your routes in MEM and didn't even give you 1 for 1 seniority in return. What jerks! If Pinnacle ever buys ASA those guys are gonna get it.

 

[1.3XVso]

It's slightly entertaining. I don't want any one group to get totally hosed. I'm not the "staple 'em all" crowd. The arbitrator, a single man, will decide the QOL for over 3000 pilots. Good luck to us all, we'll need it.

I just want SEven dust to be stapled on the FA list.

 

[nellie2110]

That holdings thing was just a shell game, to get around our scope clause. Pinnacle Airlines became "Pinnacle Airlines inc" and we were held by "Pinnacle Airlines Holdings." It was then "Holdings" bought Colgan and operated it as a stand-alone carrier. It was 100% pure B.S. to circumvent our scope.

Here are a couple points.

1. Pinnacle Airlines creates Pinnacle corp. Pinnacle corp then buys Colgan. Colgan grows exponentially while Pinnacle inc pilots are downgraded and displaced. Not 1 downgrade and displacement but 2.

2. Few years later Pinnacle corp buys Mesaba. Mesaba was losing their saabs but Pinnacle Corp was able to find more flying for some of them. Mesaba pilots are recalled and get more flying for their planes.

3. At the same time Mesaba pilots are being recalled 100 Pinnacle pilots are displaced out of Memphis and 50 Pinnacle pilots were displaced out of Minneapolis. This is going on while there are mesaba pilots junior to the pinnacle pilots in both bases flying the same equipment. So in essence pinnacle pilots were kicked out of their bases while junior Mesaba pilots are still there.

There are a lot of guys who were forced out that are senior to their Mesaba counter parts in both bases. Once again pinnacle pilots get the shaft. We have had 0 growth over the last 3 years. Colgan has grown by leaps and bounds. Mesaba was furloughing and parking saabs. Pinnacle buys them and finds more flying for the Mesaba pilots. Pinnacle pilots still stagnant with no growth.

Love it Flyer is giving mesaba pilots a lesson on shell games and holding companies. Pretty sure that page they are using was last done by mesaba and mair before pinnacle, you would know that if you followed anything is this business. First big sky purchase then our sham, pre-planned bankruptcy. Thanks for the help, but you can skip the lesson on shell games and holding companies and just considered us briefed.

As for your number 3 wish they would have waited to move the 50 and 100 people, because I am sure that it would have helped me and I would have been senior to most of those guys. As was stated I doubt any of the 25 msp captains could have been senior enough to displace mesaba 200 msp guys, no matter how the seniority list is merged. Guess I got screwed too, so can I finally be a pinnacle pilot?

 

[SEVEN]

Big announcement tomorrow. Sad to say the Mesaba name will be no more. So do I have to put Colgan on my resume now?

 

[PCL_128]

Oh and when Pinnacle's MEC would not return the favor when we were in bankruptcy-I am sure it made any future attempt at that letter null and void.

I was on the MEC at Pinnacle while you were in bankruptcy. I walked your picket lines in the dead of winter in DTW and MSP and supported you fully. So let me make this completely clear to you: not once during your bankruptcy did your MEC ever come to the PCL MEC and request the application of that LOA. I don't have a dog in your SLI fight, so I won't get involved in that discussion at all. But please do NOT misstate the facts about what we did and didn't do years ago.

 

[xjgearbtch]

I was on the MEC at Pinnacle while you were in bankruptcy. I walked your picket lines in the dead of winter in DTW and MSP and supported you fully. So let me make this completely clear to you: not once during your bankruptcy did your MEC ever come to the PCL MEC and request the application of that LOA. I don't have a dog in your SLI fight, so I won't get involved in that discussion at all. But please do NOT misstate the facts about what we did and didn't do years ago.

Interesting cause TW told me to my face that 9E's MEC was asked to reciprocate and was told they didn't believe the LOA applied. We were getting screwed sideways while you guys were enjoying exponential growth. Your facts don't match with what I went thru. That's a fact, we shrunk you exploded. That LOA was curse. I really enjoyed meeting one of your finest on Lake Calhoun when the merger was announced. He said good luck, the planes go to us and you might get the LOA. PS thanks for walking with us.

 

[CptMurf]

Your both right. The timeframe is off,

TW and the XJ MEC tried to get the LOA reciprocated during the contract negotiations and downgrades/furloughs of 2002. 9E MEC stated they were not taking our flying, but Northwest flying and refused to reciprocate. Although the page remained in the contract, at that point, the LOA sorta died. Since the activation triggers were met, but the LOA not applied.

By the time the BK came around, XJ didn't even discuss trying to enact it.