Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan SLI!

[xjhawk]

xjhawk,

Yes it is, and Pinnacle holdings management has already admit that. The Mesaba CRJ-900s and 200s are an "asset transfer" to Pinnacle Airlines Inc.

Time line buddy.......timeline. MEsaba Colgan and Pinnacle all owned by Pinnacle Holdings....(how many times does this need to be said?) One contract-one Seniority list-then the transfer of planes for ease of operation under certificates to make managing them more profitable. So your precious asset transfer and republic model still does not apply. The Jets will be transferred with the pilots seniority intact from the binding SLI.

I will say it again-you are a piece of.......work

 

[the palm]

On, or before, Friday May 20.

Once it comes out, I am willing to bet we will see a thread that will have a record amount of posts within 24 hours. Someone said 10 pages, I think it'll be far more.

We're gonna need a new forum. Mods are bound to move it to some non-aviation chat room.

 

[the palm]

Oh, and my money says Mesaba takes it in the rear on the SLI and Colgan gets a windfall.

 

[xjgearbtch]

On, or before, Friday May 20.

Once it comes out, I am willing to bet we will see a thread that will have a record amount of posts within 24 hours. Someone said 10 pages, I think it'll be far more.

Five of those pages will be written by you. Yawn.

 

[sinkrate]

I cannot believe how this argument is stupid-Hey Doing Time-figure it out, this is not a transfer of assets-Mesaba pilots had language in the contract to fly these airplanes-the new contract Pinnacle Holdings got for buying Mesaba ensures future profits (there is a point to be made that Delta forced the sale on Pinnacle by giving awesome financing). So guess what? Your precious flying over at 9E did nothing to buy Mesaba. This situation is nothing like 97' unless you are telling us that MAIR Holdings bought Express or part of Express back in 97? You and all your idiot buddies over at Pinnacle (the ones that are not arguing this are not idiots) are just using this as a argument to steal seniority. Oh and just because you are so fond of Republic I think you should go there-you are about as nice and bright as those guys who screwed two good airlines.

Actually, there are a lot more financial similarities than people realize. In '97 Express was a private company that owned all its AC. Then NW bought Express. NW then took all of Express's MSP operation and sold it to Mesaba - and supplied all the financing. Mesaba gave NW a large chunbk of its' stock in return. At that point we were both in hock to NW and NW was manipulating our assets. In '98 NW took another chunk of Mesaba's stock when they awarded the 36 AVRO's to them, and provided the AC. When NW awarded Mesaba a large contract to expand the SF3 fleet NW provided the financing and took more of Mesaba's stock in exchange. By 2001 both Express and Mesaba were majority owned by NW. By 2004 NW had divested most of its stock holdings in the two companies. They were both independent companies again. By 2007 Mesaba was owned by NW - again. Now Delta is providing financing to PCL - again.

The current transaction is just another in a lengthy list of deals that will continue. Reality is Mesaba and PCL have been sister companies that have been whipsawed since NW bought Express and the AVRO's for Mesaba.

In the grievance over the purchase of Colgan the Arbitrator ruled that PNCL Corp was an 'alter ego' of INC and that in fact Corp and Inc are one in the same Company. PCL management never challenged that ruling. PCL mangement challenged the Arbitrators jurisdiction over Corp. In the eyes of the NMB, and the Arbitrator that will decide the SLI, Corp and INC are one in the same companies. Not that it will make a difference in the award.

I make no claims, or grabs, to anyones seniority. NW has been whipsawing PCL and Mesaba for a long time. We both gave up major contract desires, and concessions, in order to finally put the two groups together and end it. Now lets put the seniority list together and move on. In a few years we will all face much larger problems.

 

[bri5150]

In the grievance over the purchase of Colgan the Arbitrator ruled that PNCL Corp was an 'alter ego' of INC and that in fact Corp and Inc are one in the same Company. PCL management never challenged that ruling. PCL mangement challenged the Arbitrators jurisdiction over Corp. In the eyes of the NMB, and the Arbitrator that will decide the SLI, Corp and INC are one in the same companies. Not that it will make a difference in the award.

I can tell you for fact that holding companies and their 'alter ego's are not treated as on in the same. Ask any who went through shamrupty at Mesaba. They may have ruled that way for you guys, but it would only be put into effect when management wanted it put into effect.

 

[sinkrate]

I can tell you for fact that holding companies and their 'alter ego's are not treated as on in the same. Ask any who went through shamrupty at Mesaba. They may have ruled that way for you guys, but it would only be put into effect when management wanted it put into effect.

What a Bankruptcy Court and the NMB consider 'Alter Egos' is two different things. A Company that is an Alter Ego for the NMB and labor negotiations can be a 'holding company' in Bankruptcy Court. It is two separate, distinct issues. The NMB's view is the relevant one in our SLI. Once again - not that it will make any difference to Mesaba pilots.

 

[DoinTime]

It seems from the reading I have done that acquiring carrier status does only one thing in seniority list arbitration and thats deciding who ends up being #1. If the number 1 guy on the combined list is a Pinnacle guy, Bloch thinks that Pinnacle was the acquiring carrier.

 

[Inconceivable]

Reality is Mesaba and PCL have been sister companies that have been whipsawed since NW bought Express and the AVRO's for Mesaba.

This is the wisest thing that I have read on this board in nearly a decade. Like southern race relations, northern union-baiting, or a host of other social issues keep the poor at each others' throats with empty rhetoric while the rich get richer.

 

[Flyer1015]

Time line buddy.......timeline. MEsaba Colgan and Pinnacle all owned by Pinnacle Holdings....(how many times does this need to be said?) One contract-one Seniority list-then the transfer of planes for ease of operation under certificates to make managing them more profitable. So your precious asset transfer and republic model still does not apply. The Jets will be transferred with the pilots seniority intact from the binding SLI.

I will say it again-you are a piece of.......work

Why won't you recognize that "Holdings" was an alter-ego shell company formed specifically so that Colgan could be bought and operated without using Pinnacle seniority pilots. Before, we were just "Pinnacle Airlines." Overnight, I found out I work for Pinnacle Airlines Inc, and my new "holding" company was Pinnacle Airlines Holdings (Corp). Why can't you understand? You of all people should know how shell games work. Hello? MAIR and Big Sky?

Regardless, though, by definition, it is an asset transfer. When you move only the RJs from one regional to another, either it's a merger or an asset transfer. In this case, it's an asset transfer. Here is Mesaba's future: all 60 RJs go to Pinnacle. The remaining Saabs are parked, and some to LGA US Air flying. Colgan stays, Mesaba remnant props come to Colgan. Colgan certificate renamed Mesaba, and Mesaba's original certificate goes toast. Mesaba's future now looks so much better. Before, you'd be down to 60 RJs and maybe 7 Saabs at best, and have to furlough from your list of 1,070 pilots. Now, you have one list, and any furloughs or downgrades resulting from a loss of Saabs will be "distributed" amongst Colgan and Pinnacle pilots on the list as well. One list was in your best interest, and IMO, I think Mesaba MEC paved the way for that list, because they knew the alternative would be a career-ender/stagnater for many, many Mesaba pilots.

 

[jonjuan]

This is the wisest thing that I have read on this board in nearly a decade. Like southern race relations, northern union-baiting, or a host of other social issues keep the poor at each others' throats with empty rhetoric while the rich get richer.

GMAB-the poor too often do it to themselves. It's the old blame game nowadays. Blame other people for your perceived failures.

 

[FOrever85]

Flyer, Get off your high horse. One list is in your best interest too, just like sink rate said. I can except long term this merger is in the best interest of my profession, but I will not sit here and pretend this merger is the best for me and the other top 350-400 pilots at Mesaba. Stop acting like you saved us from something.

Can you see into the future? NO? Then you have no idea what would have happened so quit speculating. Delta changes their mind's all the time, who knows what would have happened.


At the end of the day, whenever that is, I will accept what is about to happen and move on.

I like most of the guys that took the LOA, and they are glad they took it. They made thousands of dollars more than they would have staying and have had a dramatically better life. Stop acting like we screwed over your pilot's, we didn't.

In reality, Mesaba should have told express guys "tough s*&t for you". Then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But fortunately, they were above that and have spent the last 14 years trying to stop the wipsaw. We finally have a chance to stop it. Stop whining about the LOA.



Again, get over it.

 

[CptMurf]

Everybody got their undies in a bunch!!! Just think, next week we can all hold hands and sing Kumbaya

Keg Party at CaptMurf's right??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeJ86poZq60

I already started by the campfire this weekendl!!

 

[CptMurf]

CptMurph can't even get Mesaba history figured out....he sure isn't expert on ALPA fragmentation policy.

Seems your 70% truths make you no expert either.

Guess that's why we are pilots, not laywers.

 

[DoinTime]

Seems your 70% truths make you no expert either.

Guess that's why we are pilots, not laywers.

Please point out what I have been incorrect on.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Please point out what I have been incorrect on.

You mean rehash the last 5 pages? Seems a little silly doesn't it?

 

[CptMurf]

Please point out what I have been incorrect on.

I am man enough to admit that that I was misinformed on some of the A model Saabs coming from Express. All the Saabs were delivered prior to my employment (except the exchange in 2002, which was to keep from incurring costs due to the fleet change over). I was never told of an exchange of aircraft due to the '97 service agreement. When I was hired in '99, all the Saabs had XJ tail numbers, the B+s had been delivered directly from the factory, and had no reason to research the history of the As' until now. After research, some, not all, had come to be XJs from Express. And those aircraft made up a small percentage of the entire fleet. So it seems, I was wrong.

Now we have debated several points over the last couple of pages. A lot is strewn with your own opinion, mis-information, and some inaccuracies on your part (9E never operating Freedom planes for one). That's human nature though, and is evidenced ad nauseum here on FI.

The difference between us is that I have humility, and can openly admit when I made a mistake. How about you?

 

[DoinTime]

Now we have debated several points over the last couple of pages. A lot is strewn with your own opinion, mis-information, and some inaccuracies on your part (9E never operating Freedom planes for one). That's human nature though, and is evidenced ad nauseum here on FI.

I never said we never operated ex-freedom aircraft (we did on a temporary basis for about 6 months total). We dont currently operate these aircraft but Mesaba on the other hand operates to this day some ex-freedom planes on a permanent basis.

I try to present opinion as such and that should be obvious but what mis-information are you referring to?

 

[xjhawk]

will you guys get over it-they are not freedoms planes, Pinnacle's planes-Mesaba's planes...etc etc etc. They are Delta's planes and they can do what they want with them when service agreements are done or broken. Any-repeat any good will gesture on Mesaba's union to offer credit on seniority was just that-good will. I guess when we wanted some similar good will during our screwjob of a bankruptcy was turned down since it is obvious that Pinnacle has no good will-now or then. Then they just refused, today they are making crap up as they go along in order to steal seniority

 

[CptMurf]

I never said we never operated ex-freedom aircraft (we did on a temporary basis for about 6 months total). We dont currently operate these aircraft but Mesaba on the other hand operates to this day some ex-freedom planes on a permanent basis.

I try to present opinion as such and that should be obvious but what mis-information are you referring to?

Yes, you no longer operate them, but the context of the conversation at the time was the LOA and whether one should offer seniority when taking another airlines aircraft. You stated that
1) XJ required Express pilot to "surrender" (mis-information via word choice) seniority to come with the aircraft.
2) ASA should give you seniority if your aircraft are taken by DAL, and given to ASA. Also that this would be covered under the ALPA fragmentation policy (another mis-information).
My point was, and is, that 9E did not offer Freedom any senority when they took the Freedom aircraft. I'm pretty sure your stll operating some xxxCA airplanes too, but didn't offer them seniority. Evidently the ALPA fragmentation policy didn't matter then.

Personally, over the years I have agreed with a majority if your posts, and I have the upmost respect for your opinion over some others on here. Unfortunately, when you mix fact with opinion, it comes out as a mis-information to those not "in the know." I appreciate that you called me out on my mistake, and I hope that you would feel the same way as I call you out on yours.