Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan SLI!

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Seeing is that you were involved, what was Mesaba's MEC justification to make the request to reciprocate LOA 21 during the bankruptcy? Its already been stated that all of the Airlinks and mainline NWA were shrinking during that time and that the provisions of the LOA were not triggered by any reasonable means. I can't see that the XJ MEC was doing anything other than trying to grab some seniority for furloughed and displaced XJ pilots at PCL. If thats not correct, please state your justification for reciprocity.

I won't speak on the reciprocation of the LOA during BK. But I know for a fact in 2002 during the contract negotiations we tried to get the LOA reciprocated. I was downgrading at the time with about 3 1/2 years of seniority. Simon was too, he was in my class. Mesaba was the ONLY regional shrinking at the time, and 9E was exploding. Prior to 2001 (at least since 1997), 9E had NO flying out of MSP or DTW, and were operating NO northern outstations. By my downgrade in fall of 2002, 9E had opened hubs in MSP and DTW and several northern outstations. All of the 9E flying gained was at XJs loss.

This situation was EXACTLY how the LOA was enacted. And at the time, I would have been happy with a 2-1 seniority to transition to 9E. Essentially, I would have been a street CA on your Saabs with a translated 2000/2001ish seniority date, and would soon be a 200 CA as the Saabs left. TW asked for the LOA reciprocation, and the response from 9E (whether it was WG or the MEC) was NO. TW told me personally, and on numerous occasions that we were trying to get it enacted, but that they were being told that 9e wasn't taking XJ flying, but Northwests.

Please state why it wasn't reciprocated then? By the time BK came around 4 years later, it was a dead issue in my mind. 9E had already screwed the intent of the LOA, and I personally had to feel the burden. I barely survived downgrading again during the BK (now with 7 years XJ seniority), but I NEVER expected the LOA to be reciprocated then, even if it was discussed.

There is soo much of this talk by people that have no idea how it was created, which was a total gift of seniority at some of XJ pilots expense, that was not required. We recognized we were taking your flying, and offered a way to keep some seniority instead of furlough. We did not take any of your aircraft (at that time), and there was no purchase of certificate or contractual reason to offer it. It was a nice thing, and a moral thing to do.

There were 2 times that it could have been reciprocated, but the 9E MEC or WG as it maybe, did not even entertain the offer. To throw the LOA up in SLI negotiations, is nothing more than a 3rd slap in the face of the XJ pilots. Especially considering there are only about 40 people or so on each list (maybe 100ish total) that were even around when it happened. Im pretty sure you were not at 9E when it was enacted, I was not at XJ. So you did not personally see if it was good or not, nor has it ever affected you. I have had 2 times that it could have helped stagnation in my career and avoided a lot of money lost, but was not allowed to utilize it by your pilots, MEC, or WG (whoever said No). Just the idea that it was brought up in SLI as a negative thing, is an embarrassment on your group. And a very transparent attempt at a seniority grab.
 
Last edited:
CptMurf,

I think I have agreed with 100% of every single one of your posts. I look forward to flying with you when I get downgraded because of the loss of 200's in a couple years.

bri5150
 
There is soo much of this talk by people that have no idea how it was created, which was a total gift of seniority at some of XJ pilots expense, that was not required. We recognized we were taking your flying, and offered a way to keep some seniority instead of furlough. We did not take any of your aircraft (at that time), and there was no purchase of certificate or contractual reason to offer it. It was a nice thing, and a moral thing to do.
And that bolded should be the end of the conversation. Of course, a few pinnacle pilots will ignore the obvious and continue down the spiral of creating reasons for resentment and victimhood.
 
My bet is that in some form Bloch splits the differene between XJ and Colgan. In my case I was top 25% pre-merger at XJ. By date of hire I would be 378 (13%) and by relative seniority I would be 711 (25%) on the Combined list. On the new list if we split the proposals down the middle that would make me 18% and around 545.

Everybody loses! I lose around 165 numbers off the XJ proposal and gain 165 numbers off the Colgan proposal. I probably would be forced from 900 Captain to 200 Captain under this scenario. No offense to the Pinnacle guys because my little brain doesn't completely understand your proposal but splitting the difference would seem to help you because of longevity compared to Colgans.
 
Seeing is that you were involved, what was Mesaba's MEC justification to make the request to reciprocate LOA 21 during the bankruptcy? Its already been stated that all of the Airlinks and mainline NWA were shrinking during that time and that the provisions of the LOA were not triggered by any reasonable means. I can't see that the XJ MEC was doing anything other than trying to grab some seniority for furloughed and displaced XJ pilots at PCL. If thats not correct, please state your justification for reciprocity.

Water under the bridge, but I feel we had a reasonable justification. Not air tight, but definately reasonable. I think WG would of done it, but the political liability would of been too much for him.

I will say I believe he made the decision on his own and that is new information for me. I always assumed he took the proposal to the voting reps. That is why I always said Pinnacle MEC.
 
If we were trying to "grab seniorty" during bankruptcy, isn't that what the original express pilots were doing when the LOA was made? The difference is we (I wasn't here yet) were kind enough to offer/accept it. Now it is being thrown in our face by the "few" at Pinnacle.

Back then, the Express pilots were not doing a senority grab per say. XJ knew all the MSP guys and gals were getting displaced out of domicile. We were growing like mad and the offer of 2:1, 3:1, and preferintial hiring was made. If memory serves me correct 2:1 was a Saab Captain, 3:1 Saab FO, and preferintial hiring to the Jetstream guys.

We did not take any of Expresses airframes, but to be honest we did take over the routes they used to fly out of MSP. I am careful to say the routes they used to fly, and not their routes. All the routes were owned by Northwest.
 
I was wondering why none of the three final proposals for the ISL said anything about furloughed pilots. Any ideas?
 

Latest posts

Latest resources

Back
Top