Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan SLI!

[Flyer1015]

Wrong way....Pinnacle Pete's way. Right way....some form of a fair relative seniority for all pilot groups involved.

Pinnacle Pete isn't too far off the truth. The problem with your 'fair relative' way is that it doesn't acknowledge a *certain* carrier's shrinking future. Colgan brings a junior group, but a fast growing one. Pinnacle brings a group comparable to Mesaba (except on the senior side (before 2000)), and in addition, brings a constant jet fleet (no growth or loss). The remainder (Mesaba) brings a relatively senior group with a shrinking fleet type. Any relative integration will have 9E/9L take a burden for the loses of those Saabs.

In conclusion, there just isn't a 'fair' way of integrating this. I'd imagine some kind of hybrid list. I don't see a single method applied uniformly. Regardless, hopefully there will still be protections (time) before people start jumping across certificates.

 

[Inconceivable]

Posting the decision of an appeals court in a case wherein he sued, lost, appealed, and lost is offensive? If you want offensive you should google his name and see what else pops up.

It would be hard for even Principled Pete to argue that anonymity applies here. He may drive airplanes for a living, but he lost the "fellow pilot" status years ago.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Pinnacle Pete isn't too far off the truth. The problem with your 'fair relative' way is that it doesn't acknowledge a *certain* carrier's shrinking future. Colgan brings a junior group, but a fast growing one. Pinnacle brings a group comparable to Mesaba (except on the senior side (before 2000)), and in addition, brings a constant jet fleet (no growth or loss). The remainder (Mesaba) brings a relatively senior group with a shrinking fleet type. Any relative integration will have 9E/9L take a burden for the loses of those Saabs.

In conclusion, there just isn't a 'fair' way of integrating this. I'd imagine some kind of hybrid list. I don't see a single method applied uniformly. Regardless, hopefully there will still be protections (time) before people start jumping across certificates.

Our grandfathered flowthroughs negate the losses of what Saabs we still have. And it's not like we are wildly overstaffed right now anyway. We are running our own new hire class.

 

[DoinTime]

Our grandfathered flowthroughs negate the losses of what Saabs we still have. And it's not like we are wildly overstaffed right now anyway. We are running our own new hire class.

By my math you will be losing 20 saabs (approx. 200 pilots and assuming the Airways flying lasts beyond its one year contract) but only have about 70-80 still to flow. That equates to an aggregate job loss in my book.

Also looking at the numbers in the latest 10-Q statement, Mesaba operates 29% of the total PNCL block hours but accounts for almost 35% of the total pilots. You must not be too short staffed.

 

[bri5150]

Pinnacle Pete isn't too far off the truth. The problem with your 'fair relative' way is that it doesn't acknowledge a *certain* carrier's shrinking future.

Oh, you must be talking about Pinnacle's 200 fleet. Don't worry, we don't want to screw you. We all want a fair integration. In all honesty, we are all screwed together. I don't see any way this company can come up with flying for 2,500+ pilots over the next five years.

 

[Flyprdu]

And it's not like we are wildly overstaffed right now anyway. We are running our own new hire class.

For Colgan's Saabs.

Please do not misconstrue the fact that you have 90 guys eligible to leave for Delta as some sort of equal footing for the massive furloughs XJ would have endured had this deal not occurred.

Without the deal, you'd have 300+ on the street with more looking down the barrel in 2011.

I'm not saying you should kiss our feet, but please don't delude yourselves either.

 

[bri5150]

For Colgan's Saabs.

Please do not misconstrue the fact that you have 90 guys eligible to leave for Delta as some sort of equal footing for the massive furloughs XJ would have endured had this deal not occurred.

Without the deal, you'd have 300+ on the street with more looking down the barrel in 2011.

I'm not saying you should kiss our feet, but please don't delude yourselves either.

/sigh I can't wait for the next two years of my career to be over.

 

[Flyer1015]

Oh, you must be talking about Pinnacle's 200 fleet. Don't worry, we don't want to screw you. We all want a fair integration. In all honesty, we are all screwed together. I don't see any way this company can come up with flying for 2,500+ pilots over the next five years.

Pinnacle's 200 fleet has not been touched. No cuts of 50 seat jets at Pinnacle so far. IMO, we won't see any until at least 2017 when the CPA is up. OTOH, Mesaba is losing a few dozen Saabs, and that equates to pilot job losses on the order of hundreds. (Probably at least 200 as mentioned before). You have to admit, this merger is a savior for Mesaba in many ways. How much movement has Mesaba had? In almost 3 years, Mesaba has been stale with the exception of the new LGA Saab flying. With just a one year contract on that, I wouldn't hold my breath. In comparison, Colgan brings a junior group, but at least they bring growth to the mix. Continued deliveries of Q400s ensures they are not stale and positively growing. Although Pinnacle isn't growing, it isn't shrinking either. Our 200s and 900s are constant so far (last year compared to this year, compared to next year, etc). Mesaba brings a very senior pilot group, no growth, but the opposite: shrinking fleet. Had it not been for the Saab LGA flying by US Air Express, Mesaba was looking at becoming a RJ-only airline of 60 airplanes once the Saabs were gone. Almost like the next Comair, which will be down to just 44 RJs. It's sad, but it is what it is. The arbitrator will consider these facts, under the category 'career expectations' and his SLI award will respect career expectation for each individual airline. From a career expectation standpoint, Colgan and Pinnacle are ahead of Mesaba. To draw that conclusion, just look at what would happen to the individual carrier if they didn't merge. And the Mesaba's Saabs all gone was writing on the wall, dwindling down to just 60 RJs.

9 more days. You can cut each others throats then. Until then, cheers!

 

[Flyer1015]

Please do not misconstrue the fact that you have 90 guys eligible to leave for Delta as some sort of equal footing for the massive furloughs XJ would have endured had this deal not occurred.

Without the deal, you'd have 300+ on the street with more looking down the barrel in 2011.

I'm not saying you should kiss our feet, but please don't delude yourselves either.

Bingo. Someone gets it.

 

[bri5150]

Pinnacle's 200 fleet has not been touched. No cuts of 50 seat jets at Pinnacle so far. IMO, we won't see any until at least 2017 when the CPA is up. OTOH, Mesaba is losing a few dozen Saabs, and that equates to pilot job losses on the order of hundreds. (Probably at least 200 as mentioned before). You have to admit, this merger is a savior for Mesaba in many ways. How much movement has Mesaba had? In almost 3 years, Mesaba has been stale with the exception of the new LGA Saab flying. With just a one year contract on that, I wouldn't hold my breath. In comparison, Colgan brings a junior group, but at least they bring growth to the mix. Continued deliveries of Q400s ensures they are not stale and positively growing. Although Pinnacle isn't growing, it isn't shrinking either. Our 200s and 900s are constant so far (last year compared to this year, compared to next year, etc). Mesaba brings a very senior pilot group, no growth, but the opposite: shrinking fleet. Had it not been for the Saab LGA flying by US Air Express, Mesaba was looking at becoming a RJ-only airline of 60 airplanes once the Saabs were gone. Almost like the next Comair, which will be down to just 44 RJs. It's sad, but it is what it is. The arbitrator will consider these facts, under the category 'career expectations' and his SLI award will respect career expectation for each individual airline. From a career expectation standpoint, Colgan and Pinnacle are ahead of Mesaba. To draw that conclusion, just look at what would happen to the individual carrier if they didn't merge. And the Mesaba's Saabs all gone was writing on the wall, dwindling down to just 60 RJs.

9 more days. You can cut each others throats then. Until then, cheers!

Again, an argument about who is going to lose more aircraft at which point. Mesaba is losing them now (which are mostly gone already btw and the sky hasn't fallen), and Pinnacle probably losing a hell of a lot more in 2017 (Only 16 planes that Delta wants). Together we are not in a good spot. How's that raise working out btw?

edit: Oh yeah, and my career expectations before the Pinnacle HOLDINGS purchase was to flow to Delta. I went back to school to finish my four year degree to do that, but now I am finishing it up to get the hell out of here before the sh!t really hits the fan.

 

[nellie2110]

Not sure in what gas world pinnacle thinks their 124(Not sure what their exact number is at now) 200s are good for. They are going to be shrunk down to some number soon enough. At least mesaba's remaining fleet contains almost all 900(largest operator of 900s than any other single carrier) and is for now the new favorite plane of delta or any other carrier(as far as rjs go) that has the room in the scope. I would say that holds a lot more marketable value than returned 200s.

Not to mention with the contract that was mostly mesaba's old current contract, pinnacle has to hire around 250 people to properly staff now. So that would make 250+80 (flow)-200 (from lost of saabs) still a net gain of 130 jobs. There is more credit towards mesaba than what some are saying.

 

[Flyer1015]

Both previous two posts are talking about the indefinite future. The indefinite future is not what matters right now for the SLI, it's the current state, and more importantly, the state that each carrier was in at the time of purchase. If history is any lesson regarding arbitrated lists, any furloughees (Mesaba) are gonna be looking at a pretty harsh spot on the list. As for the rest, it doesn't matter if 6 years from now, Pinnacle may start losing the CRJ-200s. What matters now, is that the current state of each airline in determing the position on the list. Not what 'could' happen in 6 years. Oil prices, 50 seaters, speculation, are all out of the picture. What's in the picture is the snapshot of where each airline stands. For reasons already mentioned, Mesaba was already headed down the road of shrinkage to just 60 airplanes. Colgan was, and is, growing rapidly. Pinnacle is just stable with no net gain/loss of airplanes. But a steady attrition (even if a trickle at times) ensures our hiring and upgrading. Mesaba is another story. Like Comair, Mesaba's standalone future this year and next is just 60 planes.

 

[Smarta$$]

What's fair to you?

I was talking about P.P.

 

[nellie2110]

Not sure what attrition you are talking about, but mesaba has the same going on (along with all the other regionals whos pilots get hired some where)when there are airlines hiring, plus they have the delta flow. So that is a wash and doesn't make a difference either way. The only attrition other than that is lower seniority people quitting, because they are unhappy with their QOL of life and working there. Now we are back to that contract thing.

I will agree as of today there are no 50 seaters leaving and the saabs are going away(snapshot). The contract from mesaba still brought at least 50 jobs (the very low end of the estimation see below for calculations) to pinnacle due to staffing(snapshot).

If you look at just today as you like to, no 50 seaters leaving, no flow guys leaving, and all the saabs going away(snapshot). 250 (at least needed for proper staffing)-200(lost from saab)=50 jobs gained(snapshot).

Not sure why everyone can't agree for the most part everyone has brought a piece to the table and helped each other in one form or another. But most never will and that will make for one place I am not excited to work at or be around.

 

[CptMurf]

Both previous two posts are talking about the indefinite future. The indefinite future is not what matters right now for the SLI, it's the current state, and more importantly, the state that each carrier was in at the time of purchase. If history is any lesson regarding arbitrated lists, any furloughees (Mesaba) are gonna be looking at a pretty harsh spot on the list. As for the rest, it doesn't matter if 6 years from now, Pinnacle may start losing the CRJ-200s. What matters now, is that the current state of each airline in determing the position on the list. Not what 'could' happen in 6 years. Oil prices, 50 seaters, speculation, are all out of the picture. What's in the picture is the snapshot of where each airline stands. For reasons already mentioned, Mesaba was already headed down the road of shrinkage to just 60 airplanes. Colgan was, and is, growing rapidly. Pinnacle is just stable with no net gain/loss of airplanes. But a steady attrition (even if a trickle at times) ensures our hiring and upgrading. Mesaba is another story. Like Comair, Mesaba's standalone future this year and next is just 60 planes.

The current state is... oil is above $100 a barrel, DAL is discussing furloughs, and the 200's are on the chopping block. Get over yourself. We are all doomed.

 

[CptMurf]

A though on "career expectation"...

For those that would use a definition of "career expectation" as that of current PR announcements on a particular date are asinine.

In that case the career expectation of the FO's at XJ ala 2005 was that they were Captains. Oh yeah, we didn't receive those announced airplanes.
In the case of our stability ala 2006, our new 10 year service agreement was routed in 6 weeks.
The career expectation of the FO's at XJ ala 2008 was that they were Captains. Oh yeah, we didn't receive those announced airplanes.
The career expectation of the FO's ala 2010 was to be furloughed, for most that didn't happen.

Don't give me some crap of what you thought was going to happen, based on a PR statement. The snapshot at the purchase was... Who was hired and who wasn't. Who had what airplanes on property and who didn't. To think anything else, especially for your own gain, is screwing over a fellow pilot and their families. This is not the time for huge gains, it's a time of finding a fair integration that doesn't provide windfalls for any one group.

 

[gojo]

For Colgan's Saabs.

Please do not misconstrue the fact that you have 90 guys eligible to leave for Delta as some sort of equal footing for the massive furloughs XJ would have endured had this deal not occurred.

Without the deal, you'd have 300+ on the street with more looking down the barrel in 2011.

I'm not saying you should kiss our feet, but please don't delude yourselves either.

Both previous two posts are talking about the indefinite future. The indefinite future is not what matters right now for the SLI, it's the current state, and more importantly, the state that each carrier was in at the time of purchase. If history is any lesson regarding arbitrated lists, any furloughees (Mesaba) are gonna be looking at a pretty harsh spot on the list. As for the rest, it doesn't matter if 6 years from now, Pinnacle may start losing the CRJ-200s. What matters now, is that the current state of each airline in determing the position on the list. Not what 'could' happen in 6 years. Oil prices, 50 seaters, speculation, are all out of the picture. What's in the picture is the snapshot of where each airline stands. For reasons already mentioned, Mesaba was already headed down the road of shrinkage to just 60 airplanes. Colgan was, and is, growing rapidly. Pinnacle is just stable with no net gain/loss of airplanes. But a steady attrition (even if a trickle at times) ensures our hiring and upgrading. Mesaba is another story. Like Comair, Mesaba's standalone future this year and next is just 60 planes.

Well if it isn't the same two clowns that were spouting off prior to getting our TA. When are you going to figure out that we are all puppets that are being controlled by Delta. Pinnacle had nothing to do with purchasing Mesaba. Delta handed it to them on a silver platter. There wasn't a down payment. In fact it's self sustaining. The monthly revenue is set up to make the payment to Delta and gaurentees a profit. Pinnacle is not our saviors. Delta scripted all of this.

 

[bri5150]

Both previous two posts are talking about the indefinite future. The indefinite future is not what matters right now for the SLI, it's the current state, and more importantly, the state that each carrier was in at the time of purchase. If history is any lesson regarding arbitrated lists, any furloughees (Mesaba) are gonna be looking at a pretty harsh spot on the list. As for the rest, it doesn't matter if 6 years from now, Pinnacle may start losing the CRJ-200s. What matters now, is that the current state of each airline in determing the position on the list. Not what 'could' happen in 6 years. Oil prices, 50 seaters, speculation, are all out of the picture. What's in the picture is the snapshot of where each airline stands. For reasons already mentioned, Mesaba was already headed down the road of shrinkage to just 60 airplanes. Colgan was, and is, growing rapidly. Pinnacle is just stable with no net gain/loss of airplanes. But a steady attrition (even if a trickle at times) ensures our hiring and upgrading. Mesaba is another story. Like Comair, Mesaba's standalone future this year and next is just 60 planes.

Great, then I want credit in SLI for not being able to flow to Delta now. I also want credit for very little gains in the contract, while the other two airlines got huge gains. You guys were headed down the road of no contract for 6 years and crappy ass management. We all have our good parts and our bad. Fair integration is the way to go. Somewhere between DoH and relative is the only thing that would be fair.

 

[belliott]

The current state is... oil is above $100 a barrel, DAL is discussing furloughs, and the 200's are on the chopping block. Get over yourself. We are all doomed.

Uhhhmmm... oil is below 100 as of right now bub... www.oil-price.net check it out. I think we won't see any furloughs (industry wide) or any planes being parked if this trend continues.

 

[belliott]

Double post.