Flyprdu
You Want This, Don't You.
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I never said we were. All I'm asking for is for you XJers to be a little more humble.. and keep in mind where you could be.
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Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan SLI!
- Thread starter fowingman
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SEVEN
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We've already been there. How about you guys need to be humble. Just think where you could be.....enjoying your min day, trip guarantee and raise? You can thank my MEC. Wise up.
*sigh*
If you could only follow your own advice.
Flyprdu
You Want This, Don't You.
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*smooches*
Give me a break. Your math is fabricated. Mesaba's addition is NOT going to build 50 jobs. It's going to take away 200 once the Saabs are gone. Pinnacle was hiring and upgrading even BEFORE the JCBA was TA'ed. Last year, Pinnacle hired 120-130 new FOs and upgrade several dozens. This year, even BEFORE the JCBA, Pinnacle planned to hire at least 200-250 pilots and upgrade throughout the year. Mesaba's addition does not add any positive jobs. If anything, 4-6+ year stale FOs at Mesaba will jump at upgrades at others' expense. And make no mistake, the junior end of the list (consisting of all 3 9E/XJ/9L) will share the brunt of the cuts from the Saabs being parked. There is nothing positive from Mesaba's addition.
And don't forget. Your XJ brethren offered 9E Saab CAs 2 for 1, Jetstream CAs 3-for-1, and FOs a staple when MSP flying started disappearin. Don't expect everyone to just forget history.
I think you are missing the point with his statement. The contract that we all have now is mostly the old Mesaba contract. By implementing that contract, the entire company needs to staff 250 more pilots than with the piece of crap you (and Colgan) were working with before the merger. I can't verify the number, but I see his point.
edit: OMG, I didn't see the LOA remark. Is Express 1 owned by Mesaba because of that transaction? Of course not. That means it was a different situation. If Delta took your 200's tomorrow, and gave them to ASA, would you think that was the same type of situation Mesaba and Pinnacle are in now? That is what you are trying to say. My guess is you would be happy if ASA offered you a job (if you were going to get furloughed) let alone including some seniority. Oh, and we weren't offered jack sh!t when you guys were getting 200's as we were getting furloughed, going through shamruptcy. Not even offered a job. God bless when I have to fly with guys that act like the things you are spewing out.
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jynxyjericho
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Not worth it. Call your reps. You're getting your own history you profess not to forget wrong.
And with the flow, and Delta hiring (snapshot), I was looking at being on the 900 as a Captain, as opposed to the Saab, real soon. (snapshot). And then, I was going to be flowing to Delta in the next 3 years of Delta hiring (snapshot). Sounds like Pinnacle isn't my savior. It sounds like I got screwed out of an easy way to get to the next part of my career.
MACH-TUCK
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You can always return that Delta hat or just sell it to a Compass pilot!!
I still see a common factor: "asset transfer." Your CRJs need to move out of Mesaba to somewhere else. In that sense, with your ASA analogy, there is some merit to the situation. As for jobs coming, one can point to protections within the Section 1 scope of their CBA, but keep in mind, "asset transfer" is not something specifically addressed. The 9E FA union already took a harsh standpoint of 'staple.' I don't think they want to screw over all XJ FAs, rather, make a point that just because the airplanes come in an asset transfer does not mean the FAs come to. Put it this way: Imagine if this JCBA (and hence, the one list) DIDN'T happen, and Pinnacle holdings STILL moved over the CRJs to Pinnacle and called it Pinnacle airlines. In that asset transfer, how exactly do you think the XJ pilots would be treated? You're sorely mistaken if you think a merger policy would be used, or even applied, in that case. Consider yourselves lucky that the JCBA passed, and the one list is happening. It is the ONLY way the Mesaba pilots can expect to come to the 9E side with seniority protections. XJ knows this, and that's why the rumors were flying around that XJ wanted this JCBA passed because the "or else" scenario to no one-list would be horrific.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the flow originally a Northwest flow? BIG difference. Delta has never been a fan of flothroughs. Your flow situatin changed from the 2008 merger of NWA/Delta. Then it wasn't a NWA flow, it was a Delta flow. And Delta, quite frankly, doesn't want flows. And besides, like you just said, you were screwed regardless. Delta wanted the flow dead, and it is. If you weren't bought, you'd not only be going to the Saab, you'd be downgraded. 3 dozen Saabs parked is a LOT of furloughs and downgrades. That is your reality before the Pinnacle holdings purchase. You weren't screwed because of the Pinnacle purchase, you were screwed had you NOT been purchased. 60 RJ-only is a harsh reality.
Look at the Republic/Frontier/Lynx/MidEx SLI award. Read the decisions made by the arbitrator Dana Eischen. Note the history the arbitrator provides and the snapshot views of each, and note how THAT ties into the decision of the SLI award.
Oh, so when we are talking about the flow, it doesn't matter what the "snapshot" was, but the intent. When we talk about the 200's it doesn't matter what the intent is, but the "snapshot" is what they will use.
So here is what each airline brought to the merger:
Pinnacle/Colgan: A huge amount of aircraft Delta doesn't want, although there is no specific plan we know of to reduce them right now.
Mesaba: A Saab fleet that was already half gone (and the world wasn't coming to an end), a contract that was light years ahead of the other two (including the need for more pilots), better (still not real good) management, way better training department (from what I hear from our furloughs that went there), impeccable safety record, better union leadership, more aircraft that our main contractor wants (900's), flow (which we mostly lost, but we still bring guaranteed attrition when Delta hires), and last but no least, pilots that aren't intentionally trying to screw over their co-workers.
Did I miss anything?
So, how did it get voted in? Why would Pinnacle pilots vote for a contract that would let someone come in to fly "their" aircraft? Oh, because we brought something to the table?
Save your breath.... Flyer is an arrogant ___ that feels he is entitled to everything. He's been very vocal since last July on why we should be screwed over and why we should be happy about it.
Apples and oranges
Uhhh... You need to read the McCaskill-Bond Ammendment.
Ha ha, lmao. It would appear flyer doesn't either
Are you bi-polar, or did your beer muscles wear off. I am going to guess you, like most of your pilots, were in high school when that LOA passed. And like most of the pilots that spout this LOA BS, you do not understand it. NOT THAT IT MATTERS BECAUSE FOR THE 1000th TIME IT DOES NOT MATTER, GET OVER IT!
prtyprtyprncss
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Nah, I'm pretty sure he's married....
xjhawk
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I like how these pinnacle guys (not all of you) bring up these useless arguments to justify your wanting to do a screw job on Colgan and Mesaba.
The letter of Agreement from back in the 90's-Do you have a clue on how that went down? Have you flown with and talked with those guys to find out their opinion on the matter? DO any of you know that they are fullly Mesaba pilots and do not feel like they were screwed when MEsaba extended GOOD WILL and gave them an opportunity. Oh and when Pinnacle's MEC would not return the favor when we were in bankruptcy-I am sure it made any future attempt at that letter null and void. I think it expired anyways.
You really think the republic model of screwing and stapling applies to this situation? They were not all ALPA-we have rules to abide by. end of story.
That the Saabs were leaving...blaw blaw blaw.... therefore you did not have good career expectations. Ha, guess what? Delta has changed their minds on how they think of Props-but they have not changed their minds on how they think of the crj 200. I think this....if Delta were no matter what going to sell or GIVE Mesaba away to anyone, the Saab program is and should be seen as an asset. Same can be said about our large amount of crj 900's and small number of crj 200's, ASSET. Let me remind you that Pinnacle has a very large fleet of crj 200's and small number of 900's. If it were not for the great potential of Colgans Q400's I think Pinnacle might have been hurting (but Colgans Q program needed new blood to lead it out of its .....troubles). Enter Delta's offer to finance the sale of Mesaba (even though Skywest did not need Delta's financing to buy but Delta did not want too many eggs in one basket - see Comair as an example)
The most important factor in a fair (everyone gets screwed) integration and not the the staple or ratio that some idiots at Pinnacle want (Pinnacle Pete)-Your airline did not buy us, your parent company did-who also owns Colgan-who is also in this with Mesaba. So just because you share a name with your parent company does not make you special.
So you see.......and hopefully that Arbitrator can see the many different factors involved in this situation.
The letter of Agreement from back in the 90's-Do you have a clue on how that went down? Have you flown with and talked with those guys to find out their opinion on the matter? DO any of you know that they are fullly Mesaba pilots and do not feel like they were screwed when MEsaba extended GOOD WILL and gave them an opportunity. Oh and when Pinnacle's MEC would not return the favor when we were in bankruptcy-I am sure it made any future attempt at that letter null and void. I think it expired anyways.
You really think the republic model of screwing and stapling applies to this situation? They were not all ALPA-we have rules to abide by. end of story.
That the Saabs were leaving...blaw blaw blaw.... therefore you did not have good career expectations. Ha, guess what? Delta has changed their minds on how they think of Props-but they have not changed their minds on how they think of the crj 200. I think this....if Delta were no matter what going to sell or GIVE Mesaba away to anyone, the Saab program is and should be seen as an asset. Same can be said about our large amount of crj 900's and small number of crj 200's, ASSET. Let me remind you that Pinnacle has a very large fleet of crj 200's and small number of 900's. If it were not for the great potential of Colgans Q400's I think Pinnacle might have been hurting (but Colgans Q program needed new blood to lead it out of its .....troubles). Enter Delta's offer to finance the sale of Mesaba (even though Skywest did not need Delta's financing to buy but Delta did not want too many eggs in one basket - see Comair as an example)
The most important factor in a fair (everyone gets screwed) integration and not the the staple or ratio that some idiots at Pinnacle want (Pinnacle Pete)-Your airline did not buy us, your parent company did-who also owns Colgan-who is also in this with Mesaba. So just because you share a name with your parent company does not make you special.
So you see.......and hopefully that Arbitrator can see the many different factors involved in this situation.
Carl_Spackler
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- Jan 10, 2005
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- 705
Not that it matters right now, but the LOA is still active. The fact that most of us were not on property doesn't change that fact. It seems that people on both sides haven't read the actual text of the LOA to see when it is called into effect and what would happen if it were "activated".
Bloch may very well consider the LOA when making his decision as all variables should ve taken into account.
Bloch may very well consider the LOA when making his decision as all variables should ve taken into account.
The closest example I could think of would be...
If 9E offered Freedom pilots to merge into the 9E list based on their current Freedom seniority, because you opened a JFK base and realize that you ultimately took their flying. I'm pretty sure you did not contemplate that at all, but that is what the LOA was for, and how it was applied.
If 9E offered Freedom pilots to merge into the 9E list based on their current Freedom seniority, because you opened a JFK base and realize that you ultimately took their flying. I'm pretty sure you did not contemplate that at all, but that is what the LOA was for, and how it was applied.
SEVEN
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This is why the arbitrator will not use the LOA 9E argument. It isn't applicable in this situation. Apples & oranges. Unfortunately too many 9E pilots can't tell the difference between an apple and an orange. Just a little tip: one is red and the other is orange.
That holdings thing was just a shell game, to get around our scope clause. Pinnacle Airlines became "Pinnacle Airlines inc" and we were held by "Pinnacle Airlines Holdings." It was then "Holdings" bought Colgan and operated it as a stand-alone carrier. It was 100% pure B.S. to circumvent our scope.
Here are a couple points.
1. Pinnacle Airlines creates Pinnacle corp. Pinnacle corp then buys Colgan. Colgan grows exponentially while Pinnacle inc pilots are downgraded and displaced. Not 1 downgrade and displacement but 2.
2. Few years later Pinnacle corp buys Mesaba. Mesaba was losing their saabs but Pinnacle Corp was able to find more flying for some of them. Mesaba pilots are recalled and get more flying for their planes.
3. At the same time Mesaba pilots are being recalled 100 Pinnacle pilots are displaced out of Memphis and 50 Pinnacle pilots were displaced out of Minneapolis. This is going on while there are mesaba pilots junior to the pinnacle pilots in both bases flying the same equipment. So in essence pinnacle pilots were kicked out of their bases while junior Mesaba pilots are still there.
There are a lot of guys who were forced out that are senior to their Mesaba counter parts in both bases. Once again pinnacle pilots get the shaft. We have had 0 growth over the last 3 years. Colgan has grown by leaps and bounds. Mesaba was furloughing and parking saabs. Pinnacle buys them and finds more flying for the Mesaba pilots. Pinnacle pilots still stagnant with no growth.
Seven, unless you are arbitrator Bloch himself, NO ONE knows what the arbitrator will or will not do.
Weren't you the arrogant pilot who badmouthed 9E as an unsafe operation and that you'd never be caught working here? So what will it be? Will you resign outright, or bid over to the props to stay 'Mesaba'?
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