Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan SLI!

[CptMurf]

Seeing is that you were involved, what was Mesaba's MEC justification to make the request to reciprocate LOA 21 during the bankruptcy? Its already been stated that all of the Airlinks and mainline NWA were shrinking during that time and that the provisions of the LOA were not triggered by any reasonable means. I can't see that the XJ MEC was doing anything other than trying to grab some seniority for furloughed and displaced XJ pilots at PCL. If thats not correct, please state your justification for reciprocity.

I won't speak on the reciprocation of the LOA during BK. But I know for a fact in 2002 during the contract negotiations we tried to get the LOA reciprocated. I was downgrading at the time with about 3 1/2 years of seniority. Simon was too, he was in my class. Mesaba was the ONLY regional shrinking at the time, and 9E was exploding. Prior to 2001 (at least since 1997), 9E had NO flying out of MSP or DTW, and were operating NO northern outstations. By my downgrade in fall of 2002, 9E had opened hubs in MSP and DTW and several northern outstations. All of the 9E flying gained was at XJs loss.

This situation was EXACTLY how the LOA was enacted. And at the time, I would have been happy with a 2-1 seniority to transition to 9E. Essentially, I would have been a street CA on your Saabs with a translated 2000/2001ish seniority date, and would soon be a 200 CA as the Saabs left. TW asked for the LOA reciprocation, and the response from 9E (whether it was WG or the MEC) was NO. TW told me personally, and on numerous occasions that we were trying to get it enacted, but that they were being told that 9e wasn't taking XJ flying, but Northwests.

Please state why it wasn't reciprocated then? By the time BK came around 4 years later, it was a dead issue in my mind. 9E had already screwed the intent of the LOA, and I personally had to feel the burden. I barely survived downgrading again during the BK (now with 7 years XJ seniority), but I NEVER expected the LOA to be reciprocated then, even if it was discussed.

There is soo much of this talk by people that have no idea how it was created, which was a total gift of seniority at some of XJ pilots expense, that was not required. We recognized we were taking your flying, and offered a way to keep some seniority instead of furlough. We did not take any of your aircraft (at that time), and there was no purchase of certificate or contractual reason to offer it. It was a nice thing, and a moral thing to do.

There were 2 times that it could have been reciprocated, but the 9E MEC or WG as it maybe, did not even entertain the offer. To throw the LOA up in SLI negotiations, is nothing more than a 3rd slap in the face of the XJ pilots. Especially considering there are only about 40 people or so on each list (maybe 100ish total) that were even around when it happened. Im pretty sure you were not at 9E when it was enacted, I was not at XJ. So you did not personally see if it was good or not, nor has it ever affected you. I have had 2 times that it could have helped stagnation in my career and avoided a lot of money lost, but was not allowed to utilize it by your pilots, MEC, or WG (whoever said No). Just the idea that it was brought up in SLI as a negative thing, is an embarrassment on your group. And a very transparent attempt at a seniority grab.

 

[bri5150]

CptMurf,

I think I have agreed with 100% of every single one of your posts. I look forward to flying with you when I get downgraded because of the loss of 200's in a couple years.

bri5150

 

[e=mc2]

10 pages and we still have not determined who the tallest midget is!

 

[jynxyjericho]

There is soo much of this talk by people that have no idea how it was created, which was a total gift of seniority at some of XJ pilots expense, that was not required. We recognized we were taking your flying, and offered a way to keep some seniority instead of furlough. We did not take any of your aircraft (at that time), and there was no purchase of certificate or contractual reason to offer it. It was a nice thing, and a moral thing to do.

And that bolded should be the end of the conversation. Of course, a few pinnacle pilots will ignore the obvious and continue down the spiral of creating reasons for resentment and victimhood.

 

[mesaba13]

My bet is that in some form Bloch splits the differene between XJ and Colgan. In my case I was top 25% pre-merger at XJ. By date of hire I would be 378 (13%) and by relative seniority I would be 711 (25%) on the Combined list. On the new list if we split the proposals down the middle that would make me 18% and around 545.

Everybody loses! I lose around 165 numbers off the XJ proposal and gain 165 numbers off the Colgan proposal. I probably would be forced from 900 Captain to 200 Captain under this scenario. No offense to the Pinnacle guys because my little brain doesn't completely understand your proposal but splitting the difference would seem to help you because of longevity compared to Colgans.

 

[Simon Says]

Seeing is that you were involved, what was Mesaba's MEC justification to make the request to reciprocate LOA 21 during the bankruptcy? Its already been stated that all of the Airlinks and mainline NWA were shrinking during that time and that the provisions of the LOA were not triggered by any reasonable means. I can't see that the XJ MEC was doing anything other than trying to grab some seniority for furloughed and displaced XJ pilots at PCL. If thats not correct, please state your justification for reciprocity.

Water under the bridge, but I feel we had a reasonable justification. Not air tight, but definately reasonable. I think WG would of done it, but the political liability would of been too much for him.

I will say I believe he made the decision on his own and that is new information for me. I always assumed he took the proposal to the voting reps. That is why I always said Pinnacle MEC.

 

[Simon Says]

If we were trying to "grab seniorty" during bankruptcy, isn't that what the original express pilots were doing when the LOA was made? The difference is we (I wasn't here yet) were kind enough to offer/accept it. Now it is being thrown in our face by the "few" at Pinnacle.

Back then, the Express pilots were not doing a senority grab per say. XJ knew all the MSP guys and gals were getting displaced out of domicile. We were growing like mad and the offer of 2:1, 3:1, and preferintial hiring was made. If memory serves me correct 2:1 was a Saab Captain, 3:1 Saab FO, and preferintial hiring to the Jetstream guys.

We did not take any of Expresses airframes, but to be honest we did take over the routes they used to fly out of MSP. I am careful to say the routes they used to fly, and not their routes. All the routes were owned by Northwest.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

2:1 for Saab CA, 3:1 for Jetstream CA, pref hire for FO's.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

I was wondering why none of the three final proposals for the ISL said anything about furloughed pilots. Any ideas?

 

[CptMurf]

I was wondering why none of the three final proposals for the ISL said anything about furloughed pilots. Any ideas?

Probably because they should be integrated with their acquired longevity.

 

[bri5150]

I was wondering why none of the three final proposals for the ISL said anything about furloughed pilots. Any ideas?

Because it is a forgone conclusion they will be stapled to the end. Not that I completely agree with it, but I am pretty sure there aren't any mergers that have NOT done that. Is that a double negative? Ugh, you know what I mean.

 

[bri5150]

Yay, how many pages can we get this? We have another week. His decision will be on or before May 20th as per union email.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Yay, how many pages can we get this? We have another week. His decision will be on or before May 20th as per union email.

and then there will be another thread that will reach 10 pages in the first 24 hours.

 

[sinkrate]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go.

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

If any of you want to see how an SLI is done read the recent SLI award in the Repulic/Frontier/MidWest/Lynx merger. Four different carriers, four different unions, equipment from A320's to Q400's, one pilot group with 75% of their pilots furloughed and another with all of their pilots fired, one carrier's lowest paid pilots made more than the other carrier's highest paid pilots. Arguably one of the most difficult SLI's ever done. The Arbitator did an excellent job explaining how he arrived at the award. In the end he varied very little, if any, from the decades of mergers before. Don't expect anything different in the PCL/MSA/CJC SLI.

 

[shortbus driver]

Did you guys hear we are buying TWA? I wonder how they will do in our SLI? They did well at American...oh wait...

 

[xjgearbtch]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. (Tail numbers please, cause I never flew an PX till B-'s arrived later) Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. (Source? this is news to me) The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

 

[bri5150]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go.

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

If any of you want to see how an SLI is done read the recent SLI award in the Repulic/Frontier/MidWest/Lynx merger. Four different carriers, four different unions, equipment from A320's to Q400's, one pilot group with 75% of their pilots furloughed and another with all of their pilots fired, one carrier's lowest paid pilots made more than the other carrier's highest paid pilots. Arguably one of the most difficult SLI's ever done. The Arbitator did an excellent job explaining how he arrived at the award. In the end he varied very little, if any, from the decades of mergers before. Don't expect anything different in the PCL/MSA/CJC SLI.

Some people don't seem to understand the difference between taking aircraft from another carrier (via purchasing the carrier in our current case), and being awarded flying another carrier did by mainline. Two completely different situations.

 

[xjhawk]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go.

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

If any of you want to see how an SLI is done read the recent SLI award in the Repulic/Frontier/MidWest/Lynx merger. Four different carriers, four different unions, equipment from A320's to Q400's, one pilot group with 75% of their pilots furloughed and another with all of their pilots fired, one carrier's lowest paid pilots made more than the other carrier's highest paid pilots. Arguably one of the most difficult SLI's ever done. The Arbitator did an excellent job explaining how he arrived at the award. In the end he varied very little, if any, from the decades of mergers before. Don't expect anything different in the PCL/MSA/CJC SLI.

History from someone who obviously was not there or who have met any of the Express guys who came to Mesaba. Maybe I will try a different approach-History viewed from three inch thick gasses. Okay, that was not good, How about this....History as viewed by a DUMBA$$.

If you want to look at an SLI - look at the Delta/NWA SLI. Just because there are three companies and you see seniority grabbing opportunities does not mean it applies. Pinnacle did not buy Mesaba or Colgan, We do not have one carrier that is Flying large equipment making more money than the rest of us. We do not have one carrier who was bought and then raped and then screwed by fellow pilots (yes Frontier and midwest did get the screw job). To all the pinnacle pilots-you are not the buying company-you were not being paid more than us-you did not even have a contract-you have one of the largest fleets of the least desirable aircraft out there (yes the 200's)-you are not one of those Republic dweebs who were in a different union than the other companies-Colgan or Mesaba did not have 75% of their pilots Furloughed or fired-oh and about the Saabs-timing is everything-just wait and see what Delta does to its crj 200 operations. Get ready for the ride that Mesaba has been riding. Oh and my career expectations has been the same through bankruptcy, growth, and now this-JET CAPTAIN until I leave. From what your negotiators proposed would most likely screw me on that and give my seat that I have had for 4 years to one of your FO's-KISS MY A$$

Oh and just for the record, you got a lot of your story wrong about the History-and your SLI comparison was way off base if you did not get that by reading my commentary

 

[PCL_128]

History from someone who obviously was not there or who have met any of the Express guys who came to Mesaba.

I don't know whether his retelling of the history is true or not, but I do know for a fact that he was there. I can't vouch for the facts, though, because I was just a junior FO at the time, and still not involved in the union.

 

[DoinTime]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. (Tail numbers please, cause I never flew an PX till B-'s arrived later)

Most (if not all) of them were renamed when they went to Mesaba. For example:

N321PX = N31XJ

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-sf3-31.htm

Mesaba took over direct operation of aircraft that were being operated by Express I. It was a near seamless transfer of assets. Only difference was that the former pilots had to surrender half to two thirds of their longevity to keep operating them.