Pilots against JBPA (jetblue union)

[PsubS]

Bad enough like TB in FLL?

From what I've heard about TB, no. But our Values committee member in question (LM) went way beyond the legal limits to further his agenda.

Sorry to say that he never responded to pointed questions about it on the BP site...he just printed his side of the story and left it at that.

Guys there are legitimate reasons for voting "yes" on this representation vote. However, drawing LM and his supposed "poor treatment" by the PVC into the argument does not support the position.

LM acted foolishly and is lucky to have a job. The PVC acted in the best interests of the pilot group to police themselves--I could only ask for greater transparency in the rules they use to run the committee.

 

[Sailpilot]

From what I've heard about TB, no. But our Values committee member in question (LM) went way beyond the legal limits to further his agenda.

Sorry to say that he never responded to pointed questions about it on the BP site...he just printed his side of the story and left it at that.

Guys there are legitimate reasons for voting "yes" on this representation vote. However, drawing LM and his supposed "poor treatment" by the PVC into the argument does not support the position.

LM acted foolishly and is lucky to have a job. The PVC acted in the best interests of the pilot group to police themselves--I could only ask for greater transparency in the rules they use to run the committee.

53 post and all you've talked about in them...

1.F-15's (crash)
2.NMB filing (I know it's just not the right time)
3.JBPA (yep, it's just a bad Idea)
4.jetblue PVC (insider info, that we just don't know about)

Hmmmm, I wonder if you IP address is in the MCO area?

 

[PsubS]

I'm flattered that you would research my years of posts, all 54 of them. From that, you actually came to the incorrect conclusions on several topics. Perhaps you should go back and read my posts a bit more slowly, since you obviously need a little more time to think about them.

And, you probably think you know who I am...and I don't really give a rat's ass if you do.

And from that diligent research, you probably think you know how I am going to vote...but you'd likely be wrong. I've recently decided to vote for the union.

Now please tell me you are not running for office.

WHAT I AM saying, in my posts, is that the PVC did a reasonable job in keeping one of their own in check. They had imperfect tools to work with. Yes, I have insider info...is it improper for me to use that info to counter LM's totally inaccurate "whine?" Probably--but someone needed to do it.

Nick has every right to speak his mind, and I don't see any conflict of interest.

Do you see anything specific that Nick has done to indicate otherwise?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

From what I've heard about TB, no. But our Values committee member in question (LM) went way beyond the legal limits to further his agenda.

Sorry to say that he never responded to pointed questions about it on the BP site...he just printed his side of the story and left it at that.

Guys there are legitimate reasons for voting "yes" on this representation vote. However, drawing LM and his supposed "poor treatment" by the PVC into the argument does not support the position.

LM acted foolishly and is lucky to have a job. The PVC acted in the best interests of the pilot group to police themselves--I could only ask for greater transparency in the rules they use to run the committee.

How about an answer to my question: how do you know the details of the LM "case"? I am curious because you seem to be an advocate of the PVC. And you are making some pretty grandiose statements wrt LM and his employment status. Why should I believe you (or the PVC or LM for that matter)?

Why do you have insider info?

For Nick, it's the potential conflict of interest and the mere perception of impropriety that bothers me (perception is reality). Oh, and the fact that I don't think the PVC is an impartial body and am mystified by the shroud of secrecy and lack of communication ever since AA took over. That, coupled with the fact that Nick's "opinion" happens to be in line with the official company position, makes me wonder if the company (I mean PVC) would be so accommodating to a PVC member that started a website in favor of the JBPA.

As for bluepilots, I like many other pilots at JB, choose not to be a member. If that's where JB pilots are going for reliable information or a balanced debate, we get what we deserve.

 

[PsubS]

How about an answer to my question: how do you know the details of the LM "case"? I am curious because you seem to be an advocate of the PVC. And you are making some pretty grandiose statements wrt LM and his employment status. Why should I believe you (or the PVC or LM for that matter)?

A reasonable question.

You are right--you would't believe me, even if I gave you specifics. Were I in your shoes, I'd feel similarly mistrustful of a statement not supported by specifics. Trouble is, I cannot give you specifics because I was asked not to by PVC members, worried about the rights of the person in question!

I worked closely with (as closely as pilots work with one another), and count former three former/current PVC members as good friends. I interacted with them at least three times a month, pretty good by our nomadic standards.

During the entire time these guys were on the PVC, they were ASTOUNDINGLY close mouthed about every personal issue they were dealing with--on purpose. They understood that they were trying to help the individual, but had to keep that individual's specific info out of the rumor mill. To that end, they did their jobs very well. Just because you did not hear "what" they were doing doesn't mean that they weren't doing "anything."

Yes, I am a supporter of the PVC--but that does not mean that they, or their rules, are perfect. We have a long way to go toward transparancy of their ops.

The only time these PVC members slipped was during the LM episode, and two of them told me enough (I suppose out of frustration) to piece it together. Realizing that they had probably said too much, they asked me not to divulge the details. LM then put out this "message to all pilots" email on the official website in response to his suspension, and then argued it again on the BP site. He never mentioned what actually got him suspended.

He never posted in that thread again after I specifically requested him to give specifics of his actions that led to suspension, even though he promised to do so. I can only suppose that he knew he was being called out.

As for the BP site, I agree with your assessment.

 

[Lebowski]

Also, for those who continue to compare JBLU with SWA-- please, an 8.5 y/o airline vs a 38.5 y/o airline is no comparison...

Why not? Who should a JetBlue pilot compare himself to? What should we be shooting for? Didn't DN model JetBlue after SWA?

To continue with your line of reasoning, JB pilots should be happy to get 1/4 of Southwest pilot wages because what...JB has been in business 1/4 of the time?

I've heard this argument several times: "Name a unionized carrier, other than Southwest, that you think is doing better than we are...." (or something to that effect).

Guess what. You can't simply dismiss what SWA pilots have accomplished with a wave of your hand. In terms of bargaining, SWA pilots are a great model to follow. They have continuously bargained for their compensation and work rules while ensuring the success of their company. That should be admired and embraced, not dismissed as if it does not apply.

 

[Lebowski]

Hi Lebowski
First of all you do have a contract with the company. Sure it might not address all your personal needs and preferences. But to believe a CBA would make all the ills of our industry, and for that matter JB, disappear is an unrealistic expectation....

Howdy Blueside,

Thanks for taking the time to provide a thoughtful response. I think you make some good points that we both can agree on:

• We all want the company to succeed.
• We don't have the worst work rules/pay.
• We don't have the best work rules/pay.
• There's room for improvement with our work rules/pay.
• JBPA, and unions in general, will not fix all issues with work rules/pay.
• It is unrealistic to expect the JBPA or any other union to fix all our issues and to make everyone happy.
• Overall, JetBlue management has done a good job of running the organization.
• Overall, JetBlue management is not "the enemy" (as they have characterized the JBPA).
• Senior management could change at any time.
• This company could be bought at any time.

From my perspective the three main advantages of unionizing are:

1. We formalize our agreement going forward. Work rules/pay cannot simply be changed on a dime. Yes, this goes both ways, which leads to point number 2.

2. We finally get to negotiate for our work rules/pay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one on the PVC (or anywhere else) is negotiating on our behalf. In other words, we take what we are given. I simply fail to see why, as career employees, negotiating is such a bad idea.

3. We put ourselves in a better bargaining position if (when) JetBlue is bought by a larger company. (I simply don't believe that our company-provided merger protection language for our individual contracts would be stronger than what we could achieve for ourselves as a collective unit.)

And finally, yes, I understand that I have a contract with the company. More imporantly, we don't have a contract with the company. Strength in numbers is a given. That's why CBAs exist in this industry. That's why CBAs exist in other industries. That's why police departments, fire departments, teachers, nurses, etc., tend to unionize.

My philosophy is that we are professionals, and we should take pride in doing great work for the company. I know I do. However, we are also labor, and therefore something of a commodity. I don't forget that, either.

Thanks again for the civil debate.

Lebowski

 

[8vATE]

1. We formalize our agreement going forward. Work rules/pay cannot simply be changed on a dime. Yes, this goes both ways, which leads to point number 2.

2. We finally get to negotiate for our work rules/pay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one on the PVC (or anywhere else) is negotiating on our behalf. In other words, we take what we are given. I simply fail to see why, as career employees, negotiating is such a bad idea.

3. We put ourselves in a better bargaining position if (when) JetBlue is bought by a larger company. (I simply don't believe that our company-provided merger protection language for our individual contracts would be stronger than what we could achieve for ourselves as a collective unit.)

Lebowski

Rebuttal...

1. Maybe point one is more good than not. Being locked in to a concessionary contract when the company is in a turnaround is still a risk. Also, falling in to the 4-5 year CBA and then taking 1-3 years to negotiate a new one with little chances of retro pay is another issue. And where is the strength in airline negotiators. Work actions? Sick outs? Striking? Collaborating with the company yearly and making improvements/adjustments as needed and when financially viable is the other option.

2. Negotiating vs collaborating is the big question. I've done the negotiating thing. It's NOT a fix-all for any pilot group's problems. The burden is on management to prove that collaboration will be successful.

3. This point is in my humble opinion your weakest assertion. I can look around the industry and name a LOT of mergers that had pilot groups crapped on and they had CBAs... some had the same union. There is NO guarantee of a "fair" outcome in a merger. Our work agreement I believe has some good legal language but a good lawyer can find a way around almost anything.

For the record.. I have 13 years ALPA experience.
I'm on the fence but keeping an open mind. Leaning towards giving the company 24 mos to make good on their promises of improving problem areas.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

For the record.. I have 13 years ALPA experience.
I'm on the fence but keeping an open mind. Leaning towards giving the company 24 mos to make good on their promises of improving problem areas.

Instead of wating for and losing 24 months... why not look at the last eight years?

 

[a320drivr]

Nick B and the BoB members can suck my cork!!!