Pilots against JBPA (jetblue union)

[BLUE BAYOU]

Unless we hit a homerun in the fourth quarter, I'd say we're looking at a loss for the year...

Ahhh, you ain't seen concessionary yet, my friend...

I do know this much, nothing will move in the right direction until the vote is done. I look around, not just at the airline industry, but my neighborhood and I'm finding some gloomy outlook as people struggle with layoffs, plunging retirement savings and pensions in jeopardy-- to name a few; the confidence of the American spender, is to NOT in the coming future.

If the load factors around the holidays are a preview (I flew some flights with 30 people on board) of things to come in 2009, hold on tight. In the 8 years I've been here, we had fuller planes around the holidays after 9/11 than we did this past season with our reduction in capacity-- If the union does get voted in, we're not going to have any kind of bargaining power at all if the economy continues in this recession. So if you ask me, the timing is way, way off!

 

[Sailpilot]

Ahhh, you ain't seen concessionary yet, my friend...



If the load factors around the holidays are a preview (I flew some flights with 30 people on board) !

Company states 83 hour lines during compensation talks but only has 74 hr bid divisors... I'd say that was concessionary.

30 pax... Calling BS on this one!

I flew 3 days including xmas, every plane had a 96% load factor or better except one.

Thanks for the Boogie Man story though! Can I tell that one at the next camp fire!? "As I look around the street.... 911, pensions, spending, blablabla".

 

[Mamma]

Airline analyst sees strong airline profits in 2009

8:57 AM Mon, Nov 03, 2008 | Permalink
Terry Maxon E-mail News tips
In a report Monday, airline analyst Michael Derchin of FTN Midwest Securities said Monday he sees next year shaping up to be a good one for airlines:

We are currently forecasting that 2009 will be a strong profit year for the airlines despite the recession. Our $5 billion net income forecast assumes $80 oil, 8-9% RASM [revenue per available seat mile] growth, and domestic capacity down 8-9%. In fact, the airline industry is poised to report a small net profit in 4Q08.
​

Under that scenario, Mr. Derchin estimated that AMR/American Airlines would have 2009 net income of $1.197 billion, followed by Delta at $1.140 billion. He has a separate estimate of $709 million [corrected] for Northwest. Put together, Delta/Northwest are projected at $1.849 billion.


» Continue reading: Airline analyst sees strong airline profits in 2009

 

[Bluejob]

Craig Hoskins’ message to JB pilots on Union drive. Sure for all Radical True Union Believers this is just management propaganda. However, the issues and questions he raises are real how about some answers from JBPA instead of empty promises to solve all our problems. So fire away, here it goes:

“Obviously, the big event coming up that’s on everyone’s mind is the union election. The National Mediation Board will mail out voter instructions on January 6, and the voting period is between January 6 and February 3. I’d like to take a moment to clarify some huge misconceptions that are out there – I respect your right to choose representation, but you need to have the right information to make an informed choice, and I’m afraid there is a campaign afoot to spread wrong information.

First – IF a union is voted in, everything about your current working agreement is negotiable. There is no guarantee that the company will begin first contract negotiations from a position of status quo – and there’s no obligation to do so.

Second – Negotiating a first contract is traditionally a pretty expensive thing to do. How does JBPA propose to pay for that? Also – running committees is pretty expensive, too, and if a union is voted in, that cost is borne by the union. Today, we spend around $1 million a year to run committees, and that number was projected to go up with the permanent working committee structure. If JBPA is voted in, JBPA pays for those committees. How much in dues does JBPA have to collect to support these committees? It may not be so much of a question about dues – you’re choosing to either hire a representative or not, so you know it’s going to cost you money if you choose JBPA. I’m raising this issue because there seems to be an unsophisticated appreciation for what it takes to run a union among certain people. If your union doesn’t know what it takes, you have no idea how much it will really cost you individually.

And finally – there remains an assumption that if the union doesn’t work out, then JetBlue Pilots can simply return to non-union status. This is the one of the most significant inaccuracies. If JBPA is voted in, and at some point in the future you feel it’s not working out, you really don’t have a lot of choices. The National Mediation Board does not have a “decertification” process per se. Historically speaking, once a union is on the property, it or something like it is here to stay."

I agree with BC. Please check the CBB about posting internal memo's on a public site.

Also, if you fly for JetBlue and your screen name is bluesideup, wouldn't that make you upside down?

 

[radarlove]

Why not post it? Are you guys all company toadies?

This is right out of the script from "confessions of a union-buster", even the talking points are the same.

There is a long (long!) history of decertification of unions, it happens most often when there is a strike and enough workers cross the line to work at the company that the union members are no longer the majority.

At that point, the company calls for a vote, claiming to the NLRB (I know, this happens in non-RLA a lot more than in RLA companies) that the workers are clearly no longer represented by the union, since all of the guys on the line are now strikebreakers.

The NLRB then runs another election and what's funny is that the scabs often vote for the union!

So that was a bit of an untruth about no process for decertification. The truth part is that no airline employees have every gone non-union once they're unionized.

Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Mamma]

If you guys think Dave and Russ are looking out for you guys then why is Jetblue a member of the Airline Industrial Relations Conference? This organizations is around for the sole purpose of driving wages/benefits down. They are some of the best puppet masters I have seen in a long time. I worked at Jetblue for awhile and I know how they really dish out the blue Koolade. Your pay and benefits stink and although I am not sure a union will be able to fix things or even make them better, I think you will be in a better position with one. Right now the fox is watching the hen house. Managements at all the airlines want to keep wages where they are or drive them lower. They have been successful at creating a lower expectation for our services. You are going to have to fight for anything. Dave/David had the chance to offer more but "blew" it. I don't see them fixing things unless forced too. Check out this website if you think they care about you.

http://www.aircon.org/what_is_aircon/index.htm

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If you guys think Dave and Russ are looking out for you guys then why is Jetblue a member of the Airline Industrial Relations Conference? This organizations is around for the sole purpose of driving wages/benefits down. They are some of the best puppet masters I have seen in a long time. I worked at Jetblue for awhile and I know how they really dish out the blue Koolade. Your pay and benefits stink and although I am not sure a union will be able to fix things or even make them better, I think you will be in a better position with one. Right now the fox is watching the hen house. Managements at all the airlines want to keep wages where they are or drive them lower. They have been successful at creating a lower expectation for our services. You are going to have to fight for anything. Dave/David had the chance to offer more but "blew" it. I don't see them fixing things unless forced too. Check out this website if you think they care about you.

http://www.aircon.org/what_is_aircon/index.htm

That website simply debunks the mantra "ignorance is bliss"....

Check out this page of the website...

http://www.aircon.org/additonal_info/aviation.htm

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Why not post it? Are you guys all company toadies?

I don't agree with my CP, radar. But we have a document at JB that pretty much prohibits posting company internals. BTW -- it's a document that most pilots never read, despite the fact that it is one of the three parts of our "contract".

'Nuff said.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

If you guys think Dave and Russ are looking out for you guys then why is Jetblue a member of the Airline Industrial Relations Conference? This organizations is around for the sole purpose of driving wages/benefits down. They are some of the best puppet masters I have seen in a long time. I worked at Jetblue for awhile and I know how they really dish out the blue Koolade. Your pay and benefits stink and although I am not sure a union will be able to fix things or even make them better, I think you will be in a better position with one. Right now the fox is watching the hen house. Managements at all the airlines want to keep wages where they are or drive them lower. They have been successful at creating a lower expectation for our services. You are going to have to fight for anything. Dave/David had the chance to offer more but "blew" it. I don't see them fixing things unless forced too. Check out this website if you think they care about you.

http://www.aircon.org/what_is_aircon/index.htm

Pretty ironic. JB, the "company" is in a union, but JB, the pilots are not.

Oh yeah -- you never actually "worked" at JB, Mamma.

 

[Sailpilot]

Mamma,

I don't think flying to NY, having a slice at Danny's pizza and drinkin in the Kew counts as working?

 

[radarlove]

What's funny to watch is the cognative dissonance when it comes to pilot's political leanings (all Fox News, all-the-time) and their own self-interest/best interest.

From an economic standpoint, unions pay--universally--higher than market wages. If you are a worker, you can actually graph on paper how much better off, economically over time you are, or would be by belonging.

Next comes the kicker though, and this comes from experience, so listen up.

I was at a company much like JBLU, happy workers, good pay, managers you'd enjoy sharing a meal with..

...then we bought a union carrier. Suddenly, the pilots from the other company were sitting at the negotiating table with OUR management, discussing and agreeing to items that affected US, and we didn't have a seat at the table.

Talk about powerless. How were we better off without representation? When Delta buys JBLU, or UAL or whoever, you guys will all get your one year of severance pay and get to wave bye-bye to your career as the Alpa MECs fight over the spoils

And of course, like in my situation, you won't have a seat at the table when it occurs.

 

[Mamma]

Mamma,

I don't think flying to NY, having a slice at Danny's pizza and drinkin in the Kew counts as working?

True, but you didn't have "Pizza Boy" as your partner in Orlando! That was work.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

True, but you didn't have "Pizza Boy" as your partner in Orlando! That was work.

Is that a picture of Mister Red Baron in your avatar?

Rumor is they can't get enuff of him in BOS -- he's a 190 CA there.

 

[regionaltard]

I agree with BC. Please check the CBB about posting internal memo's on a public site.

Since it's copied out of the Ford & Harrison playbook isn't it already in the public domain?

 

[Mamma]

My avtar is not pizza boy. It is some generic guinea pig. I am sure they can get enough of pizza boy in Boston.

Is that a picture of Mister Red Baron in your avatar?

Rumor is they can't get enuff of him in BOS -- he's a 190 CA there.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Since it's copied out of the Ford & Harrison playbook isn't it already in the public domain?

Haha. Good point. Post away.

Never mind the CBB.

 

[727Niteflyer]

I have a question for people against the union. We all know the pros and cons but my question is what makes you think that under more economic pressures in the future that the company will not start taking away more of your benefits and pay for that matter ?

 

[Splert]

Have you approached Dave and asked him about his position to a CBA and a mechanism to negotiate with out the NMB or a Union on our property? It is my understanding we could have a CBA without a Union.

That sounds like Jim Hnat told Dave to tell the BoBs to say that we can have a CBA without a Union. Alan was pimping this idea a few months ago.

So please tell the world what are the requirements of a Collectively Bargained Agreement are? What procedures must be followed? Can the airline support the organization who collectively bargains with it with millions of dollars each year? What is the risk to us if an entity (what entity, BTW) determines at a latter date that the airlines and the pilots are not or have not been bargaining true as adversaries? What would happen at that point?

You guys are dangerous to my career.



Dave whispers to the PVC and then to one or more of the BoBs and then this become fact and you guys don't have the character to research this issue BEFORE repeating it.

Dave told me the same thing that we could have a CBA without a Union. Then a funny thing happened. The PVCs Alan and Chris started talking about it as if they just got laid for the first time. Then the BoB have started talking about it.

So again tells us what the processes, procedures, and risks. Did the blood rush from your head to your unit when Dave whispered to you that we can have a CBA without a union? To Dave this idea is a talking point and to you and the BoBs treat Dave’s talking points as gospel.


Educate us!

 

[radarlove]

That's a "company-sponsored union" and is against current labor law.

When the laws were written to encourage union participation, many companies tried this route, "Ok, sure you can have a union. We'll just take care of that for you."

The courts have denied, denied denied over the years.

I am still of the opinion that the "committeee" that JBLU sponsors fall outside the boundaries of "company-sponsored union", it would be interesting to watch a challenge.

But the card campaign should solve the puzzle.

In a union, line pilots have MORE say in their future, not less. Even though "outsiders" get to negotiate, line pilots get to vote thumbs-up or thumbs-down on any negotiated contract or side-letter.

Right now, does the average line pilot get to vote (with a vote that is counted) on contractual issues?

 

[Splert]

That's a "company-sponsored union" and is against current labor law.

When the laws were written to encourage union participation, many companies tried this route, "Ok, sure you can have a union. We'll just take care of that for you."

The courts have denied, denied denied over the years.

I am still of the opinion that the "committeee" that JBLU sponsors fall outside the boundaries of "company-sponsored union", it would be interesting to watch a challenge.

But the card campaign should solve the puzzle.

In a union, line pilots have MORE say in their future, not less. Even though "outsiders" get to negotiate, line pilots get to vote thumbs-up or thumbs-down on any negotiated contract or side-letter.

Right now, does the average line pilot get to vote (with a vote that is counted) on contractual issues?

Two different subjects.

Wrong Entity, the RLA doesn't determine if a CBA is a CBA when there is no NMB elected organization.

RLA Section 152 Fourth prohibits the funding of the labor organization with airline funds. SkyWestALPA.org was able to get a TR but long story. I'll detail later. Look it up in the meantime.