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Pilots against JBPA (jetblue union)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dizel8
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If you're spending $1 million to run these fake "committees," then tons of money is being flushed down the toilet. I'm sure the JBPA will be far more efficient.

SUUURRE JBPA will be much more efficient with running a Union and committees. However, they have not told us yet how they are going to fund their Union. How much will it cost me

As for decertification, it's just as easy as this election you're about to have. Turn in your cards again, and tell everyone not to vote. If less than 50% votes, then the union is decertified. Pretty simple.

Aren't you that rarara ALPA guy? Of course you would say that. You and I know that this half baked idea or an independent Union has a 50/50 chance of succeeding. (see FedEx, Airtan). Once it is ready it will be ready for easy picking by ALPA or the Teamsters.
 
Actually, I'm pretty sure they have told you how they're going to fund it. Haven't they already said what their dues rate is going to be?

As far as ALPA, whether you stay independent or go with ALPA at a later date is up to you. Personally, I think it's better to have ALPA, but if you can run a good union in-house, then more power to you.
 
I love to hear FOs tell me that Captain such-n-such is running around telling them JB is gonna furlough if a union is voted in. Once again, really? One day, no union, no furloughs. Next day, union, furloughs. Is that how it works?

So JBPA would and does support reduced bid divisors if need be to retain all pilots on pay role? Is that what you are saying?
 
Actually, I'm pretty sure they have told you how they're going to fund it. Haven't they already said what their dues rate is going to be?

As far as ALPA, whether you stay independent or go with ALPA at a later date is up to you. Personally, I think it's better to have ALPA, but if you can run a good union in-house, then more power to you.

Dear PCL
Any idea why ALPA is not trying to get a piece of the action at JetBlue?
 
Dear PCL
Any idea why ALPA is not trying to get a piece of the action at JetBlue?

When I was doing organizing work for ALPA National a couple of years ago, pilots from JetBlue did come to Herndon to discuss it. ALPA was very interested, but the JetBlue pilots determined that there was probably too much of an anti-ALPA contingent at JetBlue to have a successful drive.
 
.

The first point kills me -- so JB management would want to negotiate away stuff we already have? Really? So sure about that? That would kill the culture, and it would certainly kill any remaining doubt as to what the company really cares about.

But hey, you'd have the UNION to blame. Kinda like telling your kid that he MADE you hit him.

BC a lot of hopeful thinking on your part. For starters, the culture is killed the moment we have a third party invovled.
But let us discuss, the beleive a union is a
"no lose" proposition. Weaker organizers just
promise employees will get a big raise or improved
benefits if they vote in a union. Smarter
organizers (and the weaker ones when it becomes
clear they are dealing with an employee who knows
how bargaining actually works) will say something
like the union would never agree to cuts in
current wages and benefits, so employees can only
win.

The facts? Bargaining is a two-way street and
unions regularly agree to lesser pay, benefits or
work conditions in a first contract. Unions need a
contract once they are voted in - no contract, no
dues and the enormous investment in the organizing
effort is lost. Of course this always depends on
the relative bargaining power of the parties, but
most of the time - especially in today's tough
market - unions have to agree to concessions to
get that first contract.

Unions have institutional goals in contract
negotiations (like dues checkoff and union
security) that smart companies will only agree to
in exchange for something else. That something
else is normally something employees either
currently enjoy or something the union promised
they'd get during the organizing campaign.

As soon as an election is won by the Union the job becomes to lower expectations. Why?
Because nobody would vote in a
union if they thought they would pay dues for less
pay and benefits. Unions are also great at
"spinning" concessions at the bargaining table.

The bottom line is that there is no such thing as
a free lunch. Negotiations are full of trade-offs
from the two sides to the contract. Some will
benefit the union (notice I did not say the
employees - the employees are not a party to the
contract). And some will benefit the company. If
that doesn't happen there won't be an agreement.

That's not to say that employees won't benefit at
all under the new agreement. The union has to get
an agreement that benefits them and politically
won't get them voted out of office (not an easy
thing to do). But the company has to get a contract they can live with.
If that happens there will be a contract - even if
that agreement cuts some of the current pay,
benefits or work conditions of employees. If not,
no deal.
 
When I was doing organizing work for ALPA National a couple of years ago, pilots from JetBlue did come to Herndon to discuss it. ALPA was very interested, but the JetBlue pilots determined that there was probably too much of an anti-ALPA contingent at JetBlue to have a successful drive.

If UNIONS are that great for pilots why would there be an anti-ALPA contingent at JetBlue?
Did ALPA fail its membership?
How would JBPA be different?
 
If UNIONS are that great for pilots why would there be an anti-ALPA contingent at JetBlue?

Because pilots are notorious for placing blame where it doesn't belong.

Did ALPA fail its membership?

No.

How would JBPA be different?

JBPA will be whatever you and your fellow pilots make of it. One of your above posts claimed that the culture would be immediately destroyed because of the intervention of a "third party." This is absurd. For one thing, the union is you. There is no third party, because the pilots are the union, and the pilots have always been there. The only difference is that the pilots will now have collective bargaining authority. Second, culture doesn't have to suffer just because a union comes on the property. SWAPA and XJT ALPA are perfect examples of cultures where management works with the union instead of constantly attacking. This is largely up to your management, but if you truly believe that they are as reasonable and benevolent and the anti-union contingent claims, then there should be zero harm to your culture. In fact, it should improve.

Your claims are nothing more than tired old union busting rhetoric. Martin Levitt wrote about this in his book "Confessions of a Union Buster" years ago. The tactics are nothing new. It's the same tactics and rhetoric over and over again, always resulting in harm to working people and benefit to corporations that don't treat their employees with the respect that they deserve. JetBlue pilots, don't fall for this nonsense. Your senior management have contracts and legal protection of their own. You need it for yourselves just like they do.
 
So JBPA would and does support reduced bid divisors if need be to retain all pilots on pay role? Is that what you are saying?

You ask a question of the JBPA -- or the pilots that would make up the JBPA? I know that the interim leaders are on board with reduced bid divisors, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is what the pilots vote for.

The union is not "them", it is every pilot that votes for it.
 
For starters, the culture is killed the moment we have a third party invovled.

Drama. Are you sure you're not an FA?

If the culture, or "working relationship", that you so cherish is such an ethereal entity, than I'd wager that it never existed in the first place.
 
...For starters, the culture is killed the moment we have a third party invovled...

IMHO, the Culture is what's killing our pilot group...already. C'mon, say it with me:
E-G-A-L-I-T-A-R-I-A-N-I-S-M!!!

Did you read the intranet thread after our magnanimous CEO (and practiced pool player) 'outed' the pilots and the JBPA filing via BlueNote?

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Were you around when Ross admitted that if he gave the pilots a raise then he'd have to give everyone a raise? I ended up taking a paycut. Especially when CPI and our 'benefits' are factored in. Especially when you factor in how unproductive our pairings have become. So much for collaboration. Oh I know, give them another year, right?

Did you read the PCRB report and the laughable action plan?

I happened to be in attendance at a Town Hall meeting this past July. I could not believe how cavalier (and stupid - in the case of the benefits lady) and largely ignorant Ross, Hoskins, and Stabile were to the audience. Is that collaboration? I mean, if we're being transparent and all.

What about the joke that is the PVC and the self-appointed chairman AA? Where's all the transparent and collaborative dialogue from them? Maybe we should petition for a recall. Oh that's right, there's no way to do such a democratic thing.

Uh oh, you mean we might have to pay $30/month [GASP] for FLICA?
-I lost over a thousand dollars alone back when reserve PTO days were charged at 5 hours even though reserve days are 4:12.
-If I call in for 1 15 hour trip and I have 85 hours for the month I lose almost $1000 in premium pay.
-$360/year (an example) for FLICA doesn't seem so expensive if I can mitigate some of the above.

It's a business decision. Besides some blatant incompetence in the Middle- to Upper-Middle-Management positions, I am generally OK with our senior executives. I don't care how much they make or what kind of swanky pads they live in. However, I understand their responsibilities and realize (and it's already been demonstrated) that they will NEVER compensate us commensurately without adroit negotiation on our part. NEVER.

Besides the obvious shortcomings in our hourly pay and benefits, we need at a minimum:
-Trip and Duty rig protections
-Int'l override
-Night override
-Recall provisions for PVC and PSC
Do you really think that 'Collaboration' will accomplish the above? I don't.

I'll admit that a union is no panacea. However, I'm tired of sitting on my hands listening to the condescension of Flt Ops leadership. That is why I'll be voting as soon as my instructions arrive in the mail.



[Disclaimer: despite my screename, I am not on the organizing committee]
 
BlueSide: you realize we already have a 3rd party on property, right? They're called Ford and Harrison.
 
Your claims are nothing more than tired old union busting rhetoric. Martin Levitt wrote about this in his book "Confessions of a Union Buster" years ago. The tactics are nothing new. It's the same tactics and rhetoric over and over again.

When I read that, I thought to myself, "Hmm...that seems familiar", and you're right, it's from the book. "Confessions of a Union Buster" is a great read, it's a first-person account of the activities of the consultants that are sent in when a union organizing drive is started at a company.

There is no "third-party", as stated, a union is the same guys that spoke up at employee meetings. Only this time, their rhetoric actually has to get answered.

I am absolutely amazed that guys working at JBLU, who make 40% less than guys working at SWA, have no merger protection, no enforceable greivance procedures, no long-term Loss of License and no say in their work rules would argue that they're somehow better off without those benefits.

Nope, you're not better off. The shareholders are better off, but they'd be better off if you worked for $20,000 per year, so why don't you go whole-hog and cough up your cash for the shareholders you're kissing the boots of?

there are all sorts of nice things in collective bargaining agreements that benefit the employee, and many of them don't cost a nickle. How's your seniority list over at JBLU? You have one, right? I didn't think so. How about legal protection if you get your t!tty in an FAA ringer? Nope?

How about an enforcement procedure if the company violates their side of the pilot agreement? You have that, right?

Anyway, you anti-union guys are pretty funny. I still think you should just donate another 40% of your salaries to the company.
 
When I read that, I thought to myself, "Hmm...that seems familiar", and you're right, it's from the book. "Confessions of a Union Buster" is a great read, it's a first-person account of the activities of the consultants that are sent in when a union organizing drive is started at a company.

There is no "third-party", as stated, a union is the same guys that spoke up at employee meetings. Only this time, their rhetoric actually has to get answered.

I am absolutely amazed that guys working at JBLU, who make 40% less than guys working at SWA, have no merger protection, no enforceable greivance procedures, no long-term Loss of License and no say in their work rules would argue that they're somehow better off without those benefits.

Nope, you're not better off. The shareholders are better off, but they'd be better off if you worked for $20,000 per year, so why don't you go whole-hog and cough up your cash for the shareholders you're kissing the boots of?

there are all sorts of nice things in collective bargaining agreements that benefit the employee, and many of them don't cost a nickle. How's your seniority list over at JBLU? You have one, right? I didn't think so. How about legal protection if you get your t!tty in an FAA ringer? Nope?

How about an enforcement procedure if the company violates their side of the pilot agreement? You have that, right?

Anyway, you anti-union guys are pretty funny. I still think you should just donate another 40% of your salaries to the company.

Believe it or not, some JB pilots are bragging about how wonderful the company has been by giving us 3 pay raises since 2002.
 
I am absolutely amazed that guys working at JBLU, who make 40% less .


Is that 40%!!!???

Good God! at least those with CBAs and representation know there is a process in place at increasing thier pay...... or at least no cost gains that are priceless!!
 
Last edited:
Just curious--how do you know that F&H has been brought on property?

I just checked:

John Ford, #1782 JFK 190FO
Robin Harrison, #178 LGB 320CA

Oh, they are on property brother -- and they are f-in evil!
 

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