Pilots against JBPA (jetblue union)

[Fins Up]

I am gonna send a complaint email to the PVC toot sweet. I suggest we all do.

I did just that the other day. I got several emails from PVC membes saying he can say whatever he wants. If I see Nick in peson I will definitely tell him he's a dipsh!t for being so publicly partisan. There's no way he can maintain the appearance of impartiality when dealing with pilot issues now.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I did just that the other day. I got several emails from PVC membes saying he can say whatever he wants. If I see Nick in peson I will definitely tell him he's a dipsh!t for being so publicly partisan. There's no way he can maintain the appearance of impartiality when dealing with pilot issues now.

I was told to pack sand. My last email was not responded to.

 

[8vATE]

It all comes down to name calling?

I did just that the other day. I got several emails from PVC membes saying he can say whatever he wants. If I see Nick in peson I will definitely tell him he's a dipsh!t for being so publicly partisan. There's no way he can maintain the appearance of impartiality when dealing with pilot issues now.

Instead of dealing with "appearances" why aren't you concerned with "realities" and "actions."

According to your logic, if you're a PVC member then you can't have your own personal opinion?

 

[8vATE]

Packing sand?

I was told to pack sand. My last email was not responded to.

Bavarian is such a "qualified" poster about this whole representation topic.

Everyone is entitled to vote their conscience.

It's interesting how a LOT of pilots with actual union representation experience aren't so fanatically and militantly supporting JBPA.

And so what if Nick doens't support JBPA?

By Bavarian's logic a pro-JBPA pilot on the PVC would also not be an impartial and fair representative of the pilots. What if a pro JBPA pilot was representing an anti JBPA pilot?

The question comes down to INTEGRITY, PROFESSIONALISM and adhering to company policies and procedures.

I believe every pilot can have their opinions, but when someone starts letting their EMOTION control them and when someone with NO EXPERIENCE with UNIONS starts dictating to me how I should vote... then you can go pound something other than sand.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

AP
JetBlue Airways faces first union election
Friday December 19, 1:56 pm ET
By David Koenig, AP Airlines Writer JetBlue Airways pilots ready to vote on union; organizers say they are 'realistic' about wages

DALLAS (AP) -- Since it began flying in 2000, JetBlue Airways has operated free of labor unions as part of a strategy to keep labor costs below those at highly unionized competitors.
That could change next month, however, when JetBlue pilots begin voting on a proposal to form their own union to bargain over wages, benefits and other issues.
Leaders of the organizing campaign hope to pattern their group after the pilots' union at Southwest Airlines Co., which is ironic because JetBlue itself was patterned after Southwest's low-fare model.
Southwest has enjoyed relative labor peace despite having one of the highest percentages of union workers among U.S. carriers. JetBlue pilots say they too want to avoid the kind of bitter labor-management fighting common at other airlines, and say they will be realistic about wages while the recession cuts into demand for air travel.
JetBlue lost money for three straight years, turned a profit last year, but lost $19 million through the first nine months of 2008. It delayed delivery of 31 jets and no longer expects to grow next year.
"I think we're below average in just about every measure of compensation, but today is not the time to be asking for money," says Bill Evans, a Boston-based pilot. "We know we're facing a severe economic situation."
Mike Sorbie, another member of the organizing drive, said union representation would help the pilots win better health and retirement benefits and protect their seniority rights in case JetBlue merges with another airline. Seniority dictates which pilots get the best-paying assignments and which ones lose their jobs first in a downturn like the one now facing the industry. And when airlines merge, seniority fights can get ugly.
Leaders of the JetBlue Pilots Association collected enough signed cards from pilots favoring a union to force an election, which will run from Jan. 6 until Feb. 3. The pilots association says it is confident of winning.
The JetBlue group elected to form an independent union rather than become part of the larger Air Line Pilots Association, or ALPA. Many JetBlue pilots came from ALPA carriers with hostile labor-management relations.
"We wanted to see if there was a model of success instead of becoming discouraged by all the models of failure," Evans said.
JetBlue opposes a union but declined to make an official available for comment. In a statement, spokesman Todd Burke said, "We believe a direct relationship with the company is in the pilots' best interest."
Unions, with the power to bargain over wages and benefits, have long been thought to increase costs at airlines. But Anthony Sabino, a business and law professor at St. John's University who has represented creditors in airline bankruptcy cases, said a union would not have much clout while the airline industry is losing billions.
In the current climate, "even a unionized work force doesn't have much leverage," Sabino said. "When the boom cycle returns it might be different, but right now the first order of business for everybody at JetBlue -- like everybody at all the other carriers -- is survival."
New York-based JetBlue has more than 1,900 pilots and a total of about 11,500 employees, including nearly 3,000 part-timers.
In 2006, the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers tried to organize the company's baggage handlers but failed to get enough workers to sign cards for an election.
Pilots Evans and Sorbie said they decided to form an independent union so it would be more in tune with JetBlue's needs. But independent unions can be just as adversarial as bigger ones such as ALPA.
At American, the independent Allied Pilots Association regularly clashes with management. Pilots have tried to strike and conduct sickouts. The two sides have made little progress in two years of contract negotiations, leading the union to take out billboards blasting the company.
Even at Southwest, it's not all hugs and kisses. Pilots and other workers have picketed to protest slow contract negotiations, and they worry that deals with Canadian and Mexican airlines could threaten their jobs.
"We have our spats with management, but we can't get a divorce; we're stuck with each other," said Carl Kuwitzky, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association. "The company has to succeed for our pilots to do well."
Kuwitzky said he was puzzled by JetBlue's opposition to unions, noting that Southwest co-founder Herb Kelleher helped set a conciliatory tone by recognizing the pilots' union without forcing them to hold a federally sanctioned election.
William Swelbar, a researcher at MIT and director of Hawaiian Airlines parent Hawaiian Holdings Inc., said JetBlue needs to remain flexible and avoid rigid work rules, especially during an industry downturn.
If JetBlue and its pilots can do that, "there should be no reason to believe that the carrier's labor-cost advantage will be undermined by the pilots forming an in-house union," Swelbar said. "Southwest has proven this over the past three decades."

 

[PsubS]

There's no way he can maintain the appearance of impartiality when dealing with pilot issues now.

Exactly what issues do you think he will have to involve himself in that would require a pro/anti union litmus test? Is his impartiality on this issue a true problem?

Obviously, he is not in favor of JBPA or a union in general. The fact that he is also on the PVC has no real bearing on the issue unless his JBPA opinion has a deleterious effect on his PVC performance.

I can't say that I see that happening.

 

[Fins Up]

Exactly what issues do you think he will have to involve himself in that would require a pro/anti union litmus test? Is his impartiality on this issue a true problem?

Obviously, he is not in favor of JBPA or a union in general. The fact that he is also on the PVC has no real bearing on the issue unless his JBPA opinion has a deleterious effect on his PVC performance.

I can't say that I see that happening.

For you and 8vate,
I'm really surprised you don't see the conflict of interest here. The fact that he is a pilot with an opinion is not the issue. The fact that his opinion may differ from mine is not the issue either. The fact that he is so publicly one-sided on an issue that is so devisive is another. That's the nature of being an appointed advocate - it is too easy to have your personal opinion construed to be that of the committee or even that of the the pilots.

For all their secrecy bs, he's sure not holding his cards on this one.

I'll segue into this question: All the members of the PVC are elected by the pilots. For one reason or another, there is a falling out between the committee and one of the members. He is removed. The pilot group, the group that elected him in the first place, is kept in the dark as to why. Don't you think that is bs? If I helped get a guy elected, I want to know why he is being removed.

Maybe now you see why people have a problem with the secret society known as the PVC.

 

[PsubS]

Fins, reasonable points, but I think your opinion of the PVC is off base.

But, in defense of my point, Nick has not made any assertion that the PVC is against the union drive. He only posted his opinions under his own name. To put it another way, just because he is a member of the PVC does not rob him of his right to stand up for what he thinks is right. I just don't see him using the PVC as a bully pulpit.

As for the "secret society," I agree that they operate with a deficient amount of written guidance. Their operating charter provides them--or us--any semblance of transparent guidelines for coping with improper actions by members.

Now, that said...just because they don't have something published does not mean that they cannot keep their members under control. Unfortunately, the PVC member who was put on probation did not come clean to the rest of the pilot group. In reality, his actions were not only counter to the functioning of the group, but were bad enough to have been terminated by the company. I'm surprised he was not.

The tough part is that we have no visibility into personal issues due to confidentiality. So, what do you want?

A PVC that keeps rougue members in check, or one that spouts confidential, personal info to everybody?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Unfortunately, the PVC member who was put on probation did not come clean to the rest of the pilot group. In reality, his actions were not only counter to the functioning of the group, but were bad enough to have been terminated by the company. I'm surprised he was not.

You apparently know the details: why do you first of all, and why not share it with the pilot group (or at least the ones that voted for him)?

Bad enough like TB in FLL?

 

[waveflyer]

this all seems very familiar- does Ford and Harrison mass produce their anti-union tactics and sell them in a vending machine= the words don't change at all.
"it's in the pilots best interests to have a direct relationship with the company..." blah blah blah

the only reason they want you non-union is so that you cannot negotiate with more rights and more teeth. even the 'peace, love, and southwest' crowd knows this well.

Good luck JB- now is the time- organize now- negotiate more when profits come.