NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[Redmeat]

Just like a pilot, you have to adjust for changing conditions. If strong headwinds resulted in insufficient fuel to assure a safe outcome you would be wise to consider a diversion.

Well said. And that is exactly why DS, RA, and WS are looking for a merger.

 

[Redmeat]

I stand to lose a lot in this merger and will likely resign once the details are confirmed. None the less, in the interest of our profession I hope that ALPA can make this transaction work for its membership. This thing is perilously close to being USAPA version 2.0.

Oh stop. Now you are just being dramatic.

If you wanted to be in the airline industry and yet still have total control of your destiny you should have invested in the airlines or become top floor management, but certainly not flown for them.

That said we can be smart about this or we can once again illustrate to management that we are a bunch of 'petulant morons' (someone else's words on FI) incapable of shedding our ego's and constructively conducting ourselves as a group of professionals.

It's fun to sling fod and banter on FI, but threatening to quit your job with this economy and uncertain future because of a merger where you will get a 7% raise and a $100,000 check to your bank account is a bit much.

I call BS.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Hey oil is over 107 a barrel!
Scary...

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

The truth of the matter is that the money guys want to cash out.

We are just along for the ride. We can agree to work together, or not, but no bitching about the consequences.

We'll certainly get to vote on any contract goodies, but if there is any kind of agreement, but I don't think EITHER pilot group will be permitted MEMRAT on the SLI....MECRAT only.

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

If you wanted to be in the airline industry and yet still have total control of your destiny you should have invested in the airlines or become top floor management, but certainly not flown for them.

Invested in airlines? What?

Having been there and done that, flying, even at a "regional" is a better job than being a Vice President.

To simulate the experience, go drive in traffic from 0500 to 0700. Then lock yourself in the smallest corner room of your house and start working on optimizing your tax returns, set a timer on the phone so that it rings constantly with people asking detailed questions about one of your 150 projects and interrupt your efforts with several secretaries arguing about percieved acts of favoritism. Break for lunch with your Boss to get a few million more in authority while you talk about him and his promotion, get back to a stack of messages from folks in different time zones. Now you are in a race, can you return calls to keep the operation on the rails before the folks in Europe start going home? Miss a call and something might get spent that costs serious money. In a flash it is 1600 and you start working your way across the planet, ending up by fixing the stuff in California late in the day. You want to get out and go for a run, your Company has a nice set up, but by now the sun is going down and attorneys are coming in town for a dinner (briefing) on one of your other projects. You also need to prepare for a business trip - at least you have "the jet" tomorrow and that saves you an hour or two driving and waiting. Another hour drive and you get home to find your wife and kids asleep. Rinse and repeat at 0500 the next morning. If you are really good, you just make do on 4 to 5 hours of sleep and only go for a full 8 the night before a trial.

Most of the people who work this hard make less than a Captain at NWA, or Delta. Get stock options and your results can differ.

It is just like flying, all the work that the outside world does not see fails to be appreciated by the masses who think the job is "easy." Truth is, a good professional just makes the impossible look easy.

Notice that most of the "suits" on board our flight have a hard time remaining awake for the safety demo. An "effective" manager in the real world (a start up, not a 75 year old legacy company) probably has not seen eight hours of sleep since his last vacation that he cut down to three days because work was piling up at the office.

 

[Redmeat]

Invested in airlines? What?

Having been there and done that, flying, even at a "regional" is a better job than being a Vice President.

To simulate the experience, go drive in traffic from 0500 to 0700. Then lock yourself in the smallest corner room of your house and start working on optimizing your tax returns, set a timer on the phone so that it rings constantly with people asking detailed questions about one of your 150 projects and interrupt your efforts with several secretaries arguing about percieved acts of favoritism. Break for lunch with your Boss to get a few million more in authority while you talk about him and his promotion, get back to a stack of messages from folks in different time zones. Now you are in a race, can you return calls to keep the operation on the rails before the folks in Europe start going home? Miss a call and something might get spent that costs serious money. In a flash it is 1600 and you start working your way across the planet, ending up by fixing the stuff in California late in the day. You want to get out and go for a run, your Company has a nice set up, but by now the sun is going down and attorneys are coming in town for a dinner (briefing) on one of your other projects. You also need to prepare for a business trip - at least you have "the jet" tomorrow and that saves you an hour or two driving and waiting. Another hour drive and you get home to find your wife and kids asleep. Rinse and repeat at 0500 the next morning. If you are really good, you just make do on 4 to 5 hours of sleep and only go for a full 8 the night before a trial.

Most of the people who work this hard make less than a Captain at NWA, or Delta. Get stock options and your results can differ.

It is just like flying, all the work that the outside world does not see fails to be appreciated by the masses who think the job is "easy." Truth is, a good professional just makes the impossible look easy.

Notice that most of the "suits" on board our flight have a hard time remaining awake for the safety demo. An "effective" manager in the real world (a start up, not a 75 year old legacy company) probably has not seen eight hours of sleep since his last vacation that he cut down to three days because work was piling up at the office.

Look...you're not management and neither am I. We're pilots. We have a rare opportunity here to have some control over our future during an unprecedented situation...

...for now.

Let's use that control wisely.

Peace.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We're pilots. We have a rare opportunity here to have some control over our future during an unprecedented situation...

...for now.

Let's use that control wisely.

Peace.

Absolutely agreed.

 

[Noserider76]

Heyas,

We'll certainly get to vote on any contract goodies, but if there is any kind of agreement, but I don't think EITHER pilot group will be permitted MEMRAT on the SLI....MECRAT only.

Nu

Straight from the reps...Memrat on contract/SLI package deal. All or nothing.

 

[PCL_128]

That's what you said last time and the board rumor turned out to be true

Actually, he was 100% right. He said they would be back to the table, and they were. You would be smart to listen to Occam. The man knows what's going on.

 

[jke406]

Actually, he was 100% right. He said they would be back to the table, and they were. You would be smart to listen to Occam. The man knows what's going on.

let me guess: Occam is one of your union "friends with privileges?"

 

[Redmeat]

Actually, he was 100% right. He said they would be back to the table, and they were. You would be smart to listen to Occam. The man knows what's going on.

To use a younger generation's term...WORD.

 

[PCL_128]

Jke, friends with privileges? Isn't that what you have down at the bath house?

 

[Redmeat]

let me guess: Occam is one of your union "friends with privileges?"

jke406...what exactly is your position in all of this?

You sure do have a lot say. Please enlighten all of us @ NW and DAL.

Do you work for either airline?

 

[Truckdriver]

Hey oil is over 107 a barrel!
Scary...

That is what we said when it crossed $50, then $60, then $70, etc. People also said they would never pay $3/gal for gas and consumption has never slowed. Consumption of gas won't slow until gas hits around $5/gal and then small business in the U.S.A. will come up with alternative energy sources and stop waiting on the government or big oil to do something they will never do. Just like gasoline for our cars, Americans will fly if it costs a few bucks more. The only thing that will hurt this industry is if ALL the airlines don't add fuel surcharges. It seems over the last year that most of the fuel surcharge increases have stuck and that is a good thing. I think the next couple of years will be like any other recession in the airline industry, but airlines will make it through just as they always do. If we had a government that worried about the economy of the nation instead of the economy of a few rich folks in the U.S., then we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

 

[jke406]

jke406...what exactly is your position in all of this?

You sure do have a lot say. Please enlighten all of us @ NW and DAL.

Do you work for either airline?

I just call it like I see it.

there are plenty of tools at NWA, DAL, ALPA, etc. etc. who could benefit by doing the same thing.

 

[Redmeat]

I just call it like I see it.

there are plenty of tools at NWA, DAL, ALPA, etc. etc. who could benefit by doing the same thing.

Folks...let me translate:

He doesn't work for NW or DAl and has no stake in the outcome of the negotiations or the merger.

Irrelevant is the term that should come to mind upon reading joke406's post's regarding the merger from this point.

Tool.

 

[123]

That's kind of ironic. I make 80-100K at ASA am in the top 50% of the list. But from what I'm hearing my QOL and prospects are way better than those of you who got the "dream shot".

And everyone wants to know why we "losers" CHOOSE to stay at a regional.

I wouldn't call anyone at a regional a "loser" (well, I take that back, but it is not because they are at a regional...). I think that the better term is "risk averse", which is perfectly fine and completely dependent upon a persons situation in life. Thing is that you can not complain, or sue, when still flying for 80-100k and someone who was once junior to you and accepted the risk of a major and is making $150k plus.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Actually, last time he stated that the rumor that they/we had walked away for good was false. Or the the deal was dead.
Read every word he says. The devil is in the detail.

I respectfully disagree. The Delta team came home.

Negotiations ended nearly two weeks ago without a deal, dousing expectations that the airlines would strike a merger agreement.

Management's take:

SEATTLE (AP) -- Bastian said, "It's not a Plan B, it's a Plan A -- that's our standalone option." Later, Bastian said the company expects solid growth for the year and that the airline has "a great standalone plan."

He said a potential combination would have to protect its employees' seniority; for pilots, that means first dibs on desirable and higher-paying planes, routes and schedules.

Richard Anderson's take:

"We have not arrived at a potential transaction that meets all of our principles," he said, adding those included keeping the Delta name and Atlanta headquarters, improving international growth prospects as well as protecting employees' seniority, jobs and retirement plans. "We will not complete a transaction unless all of these conditions are met," Anderson concluded.

And action:

Delta Air Lines Inc. disbanded the outside advisers hired to guide a merger with Northwest Airlines Corp. after the carriers' pilots couldn't agree on how to mesh seniority lists, people with knowledge of the matter said.

As I wrote, ALPA National did weigh in once the phone started ringing with other MEC's demanding to know why NWA Reps would hold up a 30%+ pay restoration outside of Section 6 negotiations. It took intervention from National to get DAL to return to the table.

Sources told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Friday that senior members of the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents both pilot groups, have met with representatives from both airlines' locals in an attempt to restart the talks.

and

A group of Northwest Airlines pilots was still holding out hope Thursday that a merger with Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines is possible.

Based on this reporting, the NWA pilots wanted the Delta guys back and National stepped in. Neither side sent their entire teams.

A person familiar with the matter told Reuters on Wednesday the meetings have involved a handful of senior pilots and are not formal negotiations. It is unclear whether the group has made any progress.

Others are reporting the progress was not as much as was hoped.

In the mean time, resistance is certainly building on the DAL side and $108 oil is putting a lot of pressure on management.

Anderson is correct to point at the US Government's failure to have an energy policy and FAA inefficiencies. He's looking forward as a man running a ongoing operation. Steenland is saying consolidation is necessary - he is looking forward also, as a man running for a golden parachute

MINNEAPOLIS -- Northwest Airlines CEO Doug Steenland called $105 oil a "serious budget-breaker" on Monday and warned that high fuel costs are a "difficult financial challenge" for the carrier that emerged from bankruptcy just nine months ago.

Steenland said if oil remains above $100 a barrel, "it will cost Northwest $1.7 billion more this year than it planned for. This rapid increase in fuel costs is another reason why we continue to believe that consolidation in the industry is inevitable."

High fuel prices were a major factor in Northwest's and Delta's bankruptcy filings in September 2005.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

never mind

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You can disagree, but the fact is that he does know more than the average bear.
And not to defend him, but he had the same info that I did, abet from the other side of the fence. Where we go from there is anyones guess, but I know that your reps will tell you if you call them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The Delta Reps did tell me the Delta team came home with no plans to return. The Press reported the same thing four days later and management confirmed the brake was set for the time being. That brake remained set for nearly two weeks until the forces I reported were in play at ALPA National compelled the groups to meet again.

I agree that Occam's usually an Oracle, but when he posts:

Bad rumor.

That leaves a lot to interpretation. Here is the actual report from the Wall Street Journal:

Informal talks among pilot leaders from Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. over the past week failed to produce the breakthrough needed for the two airlines to move ahead with their plans for a merger that would create the world's largest airline, said people familiar with the talks.

 

[~~~^~~~]

deleted....

 

[ACL65PILOT]

He is being circumspect. I think he enjoys watching all of the BS on here.

 

[Fly4hire]

Here is the actual report from the Wall Street Journal:

I think you are placing way too much weight on what is being reported in the press. Both the DAL and NWA pilots are largely in the dark, and those that claim to "know" have bits and snippets, not the whole picture.

Regarding SLI, this is the most closely guarded, tight lipped communications I've seen in 15 yrs of ALPA. I think the only ones who really know are the MEC chairman and the merger committees, and they are not talking to us garden variety line pilots.

Focus: We'll get the details when they either a) announce a deal, or b) announce it's formally over.

The rest is all conjecture.

 

[Sedona16]

OK, talked to two DALPA reps again today who were in the lounge to answer questions. They said DAL/NWA pilots are talking right now. All will be known this Thursday. There is a meeting scheduled for all the DALPA reps to meet with the negotiators. If a deal is not struck both these guys claimed Delta will walk and its basically over. Is this just posturing I dont know. Info from the Thursday meeting will most likely be reported back to the pilots Fri or Monday unless the media gets something first.

What I'm hearing on the line is most Delta pilots are ready to shut this thing down and go it alone. I will be pretty surpised if the merger is given a yes vote by the Delta pilots unless something more significant is thrown in to sweeten the deal from management. Most Delta guys I have talked to want to go it alone and grow internally. Tokyo is nice but China is where the growth is and NWA doesn't bring that much there.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Be cool, my brothers!

NWA MEC is meeting tomorrow. (Regular meeting)

The talks ain't over.

The DAL team has nobody to talk to while the NWA team is briefing the MEC.

We're in a weird vortex here. None of this stuff is "officially" happening. It can't, because there are risks to other items if/when it becomes "official".

Until Lee Moak and Dave Stevens send you an e-mail that announces all exploratory discussions are permanently suspended...with no chance of a deal...it would be wise to assume there is still "something" going on.

 

[PCL_128]

OK, talked to two DALPA reps again today who were in the lounge to answer questions. They said DAL/NWA pilots are talking right now.

What? You mean Occam was right? Who woulda thunk it?!

 

[Sedona16]

Occam, just out of curiosity what is your position with NWA? I think I read somewhere you are on the hiring board, conducting interviews or perhaps in the training dept? Thanks

 

[blzr]

Things are very quiet here at NWA, too quiet. The MEC is not tipping its hat on any information from the NWALPA/DALALPA neg.

IMHO, DOH intergration of both seniority lists with a no bump, no flush seems to be a fair way to go.

If not then fences around the equipment be put into place until the most junior pilot on the property retires. Coincidentally, that was what the NWA/Republic merger arbitrated, called affectionately, "The Roberts Award". This ruling finally ended January of 2006.

Personally, I do not want to fly DAL equipment nor bid into any of their bases. All of the NWA pilots that I have talked with agree also feel the same way.

In fact, these pilots all agree that a merger is not wanted, and that NWA is in a very good financial shape right now and a merger with DAL may reverse that positive trend.

An arbitrated ruling on the seniority list intergration certainnally will bring more negatives than positives to the solution for both NWA and DAL.

I have found the solution!!! after a couple of rounds of Tequila, me and Consuela have solved the problem. How many pilots are there now?? Doesn't matter. Everyone gets a #. 1-Whatever. Put all those #'s in my sombrero. I draw # until my sombrero is empty and do a shot for every #. You now have the new Senority list.! Why hasn't ANYONE come up with this yet?

 

[NuGuy]

What? You mean Occam was right? Who woulda thunk it?!

Gawd man, don't say that! His head is big enough as it is !

Nu