NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[~~~^~~~]

Just like a pilot, you have to adjust for changing conditions. If strong headwinds resulted in insufficient fuel to assure a safe outcome you would be wise to consider a diversion.

 

[viper548]

last i looked it was about a 1000 from the bottom. So 4200ish out of 5200ish.

What do you think the upgrade time will be for a newhire?

 

[Noserider76]

IMHO, DOH intergration of both seniority lists with a no bump, no flush seems to be a fair way to go.

If not then fences around the equipment be put into place until the most junior pilot on the property retires. Coincidentally, that was what the NWA/Republic merger arbitrated, called affectionately, "The Roberts Award". This ruling finally ended January of 2006.

Personally, I do not want to fly DAL equipment nor bid into any of their bases. All of the NWA pilots that I have talked with agree also feel the same way.

In fact, these pilots all agree that a merger is not wanted, and that NWA is in a very good financial shape right now and a merger with DAL may reverse that positive trend.

An arbitrated ruling on the seniority list intergration certainnally will bring more negatives than positives to the solution for both NWA and DAL.

No bump/flush is a given in any senario. Who would DOH be fair to? Even relative seniority is a huge concession for most DL guys. An 8 year DL pilot can hold MD-88 Capt, 777 FO, and 757/767 FO system-wide. What do you think his options look like after a relative seniority merger? Much, much worse.

It seems from this side that many on the NW side want everything and want to give up nothing to get it. DL guys seem to realize that, even with the large hit they would take in a realtive seniority deal, compromise will be required in any merger. Not so sure now though as positions seem to be hardening here.

I agree with you though on arbitration. It will probably eliminate any of the benefits the pilot group would receive and it will eliminate the opportunity for both sides to vote on the proposed contract/SLI. It's also been proven that if the larger group doesn't like the outcome, they may take their sheet and go home. It may end up being the only option though if this merger is forced on us.

 

[Superpilot92]

What do you think the upgrade time will be for a newhire?

Who knows, there are to many variables.

 

[ifly4food]

I stand to lose a lot in this merger and will likely resign once the details are confirmed. None the less, in the interest of our profession I hope that ALPA can make this transaction work for its membership. This thing is perilously close to being USAPA version 2.0.

Fins, guess the grass really isn't as green on the other side as some think, is it?

(ps, it's VERY annoying how you constantly edit your posts after the fact. It hard to reply when the original post has changed three times by the time my reply goes through.)

 

[ifly4food]

Joe,
Fin as with many that have to look up at a 11,000+ seniority list, has a lot to weigh. If you are in your 40's and less than 1500 pilots from the bottom, the prospects of a upgrade equating to a decent QOL get less and less.
Each person has to weigh that. As we all know it isn't what it used to be. 80-100K is not bad, but it is not what many have see nor signed on for, especially for people who will be affected by a merger as well as the age 65 implementation.

That's kind of ironic. I make 80-100K at ASA am in the top 50% of the list. But from what I'm hearing my QOL and prospects are way better than those of you who got the "dream shot".

And everyone wants to know why we "losers" CHOOSE to stay at a regional.

 

[ifly4food]

I understand that completely.....that is why I have chosen to stay at the top of the list here at ASA.....The view looks better to me from here than it does at the bottom of the Delta list....

The bottom of a legacy list looks a little scary right now.....

My thoughts exactly. Those who left are very quick to taunt those of us who choose not to. I'm pretty confident in my decision right about now.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins, guess the grass really isn't as green on the other side as some think, is it?

True, but sometimes it is greener. In the past year Delta has announced more growth, more aircraft orders and hired more pilots than they initially forecast. Until there is an agreement & see details we do not know how to shade the grass.

In either event pilots should avoid labelling each other on the basis of decisions made by airline managers. No one with an ATP deserves any less respect than anyone else.

Some have had the misfortune of working for Frank Lorenzo while others went to work for Herb Kelleher and Fred Smith.

Delta is a terrific place to fly, a legitimate #1 choice. Don't get me wrong on that point. My concern is that Delta is not going to offer the same opportunities and some of the intangibles that make Delta such a pleasant place to work might not exist going forward with a contentious merger. Folks tied to Atlanta might have some serious thinking to do if there were not a fence to protect them from displacements.

Sorry about editing. I surf Flight Info while working job #2 and sometimes come back to a thought after getting distracted.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

As you know I made the move last year. There is nothing that I regret. I was in the top 300 pilots at ASA. It was a lot to give up at a chance, but with anything, there are no rewards without risk. That was my take on the move across the street.
Short term, you are correct. I loose my vacations of choice, weekends and holidays off, as well as pay.
It year two or three, I will make the same about that I did at ASA. That is under DAL's concessionary contract.
I will be able to see weekends and the holidays off in a few years if I choose to stay on the 88 or go to NYC.
Even with the work rules that are currently in place, I have doubled my time at home, and enjoy it here. It truly is a different world at major. I do not care how you try to color it.
Yes, I could get furloughed, but as with the other points it is short term. Long term I will more than double my earnings and do the type of flying that some, not all of us dreamed of.
Those who regret leaving are looking at the pain that we are now in. Not at the way that it will be in two, five, ten years etc.
A merger will cause some pain, they always do, but I believe that if the pilots can work out the issues, there is a lot of growth coming to the new company.
Fin has the option to quit. He has a company that will make more in two years than he will make here in 10. Many of us do not have a second business that profitable. I only wish I had options like that.

 

[viper548]

That's kind of ironic. I make 80-100K at ASA am in the top 50% of the list. But from what I'm hearing my QOL and prospects are way better than those of you who got the "dream shot".

And everyone wants to know why we "losers" CHOOSE to stay at a regional.

It's not an easy decision to make. Walking away from a $80K+ a year job for one that starts out at less than half that with little job security takes some serious consideration. There are only a few airlines I'd leave for. Luckily for me, my first choice called. Not everyone sees NW as an option they'd leave a regional for. I put a premium on being on the front edge of a hiring wave.

I don't think someone is a loser because they chose to stay at a regional.

 

[Redmeat]

Just like a pilot, you have to adjust for changing conditions. If strong headwinds resulted in insufficient fuel to assure a safe outcome you would be wise to consider a diversion.

Well said. And that is exactly why DS, RA, and WS are looking for a merger.

 

[Redmeat]

I stand to lose a lot in this merger and will likely resign once the details are confirmed. None the less, in the interest of our profession I hope that ALPA can make this transaction work for its membership. This thing is perilously close to being USAPA version 2.0.

Oh stop. Now you are just being dramatic.

If you wanted to be in the airline industry and yet still have total control of your destiny you should have invested in the airlines or become top floor management, but certainly not flown for them.

That said we can be smart about this or we can once again illustrate to management that we are a bunch of 'petulant morons' (someone else's words on FI) incapable of shedding our ego's and constructively conducting ourselves as a group of professionals.

It's fun to sling fod and banter on FI, but threatening to quit your job with this economy and uncertain future because of a merger where you will get a 7% raise and a $100,000 check to your bank account is a bit much.

I call BS.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Hey oil is over 107 a barrel!
Scary...

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

The truth of the matter is that the money guys want to cash out.

We are just along for the ride. We can agree to work together, or not, but no bitching about the consequences.

We'll certainly get to vote on any contract goodies, but if there is any kind of agreement, but I don't think EITHER pilot group will be permitted MEMRAT on the SLI....MECRAT only.

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

If you wanted to be in the airline industry and yet still have total control of your destiny you should have invested in the airlines or become top floor management, but certainly not flown for them.

Invested in airlines? What?

Having been there and done that, flying, even at a "regional" is a better job than being a Vice President.

To simulate the experience, go drive in traffic from 0500 to 0700. Then lock yourself in the smallest corner room of your house and start working on optimizing your tax returns, set a timer on the phone so that it rings constantly with people asking detailed questions about one of your 150 projects and interrupt your efforts with several secretaries arguing about percieved acts of favoritism. Break for lunch with your Boss to get a few million more in authority while you talk about him and his promotion, get back to a stack of messages from folks in different time zones. Now you are in a race, can you return calls to keep the operation on the rails before the folks in Europe start going home? Miss a call and something might get spent that costs serious money. In a flash it is 1600 and you start working your way across the planet, ending up by fixing the stuff in California late in the day. You want to get out and go for a run, your Company has a nice set up, but by now the sun is going down and attorneys are coming in town for a dinner (briefing) on one of your other projects. You also need to prepare for a business trip - at least you have "the jet" tomorrow and that saves you an hour or two driving and waiting. Another hour drive and you get home to find your wife and kids asleep. Rinse and repeat at 0500 the next morning. If you are really good, you just make do on 4 to 5 hours of sleep and only go for a full 8 the night before a trial.

Most of the people who work this hard make less than a Captain at NWA, or Delta. Get stock options and your results can differ.

It is just like flying, all the work that the outside world does not see fails to be appreciated by the masses who think the job is "easy." Truth is, a good professional just makes the impossible look easy.

Notice that most of the "suits" on board our flight have a hard time remaining awake for the safety demo. An "effective" manager in the real world (a start up, not a 75 year old legacy company) probably has not seen eight hours of sleep since his last vacation that he cut down to three days because work was piling up at the office.

 

[Redmeat]

Invested in airlines? What?

Having been there and done that, flying, even at a "regional" is a better job than being a Vice President.

To simulate the experience, go drive in traffic from 0500 to 0700. Then lock yourself in the smallest corner room of your house and start working on optimizing your tax returns, set a timer on the phone so that it rings constantly with people asking detailed questions about one of your 150 projects and interrupt your efforts with several secretaries arguing about percieved acts of favoritism. Break for lunch with your Boss to get a few million more in authority while you talk about him and his promotion, get back to a stack of messages from folks in different time zones. Now you are in a race, can you return calls to keep the operation on the rails before the folks in Europe start going home? Miss a call and something might get spent that costs serious money. In a flash it is 1600 and you start working your way across the planet, ending up by fixing the stuff in California late in the day. You want to get out and go for a run, your Company has a nice set up, but by now the sun is going down and attorneys are coming in town for a dinner (briefing) on one of your other projects. You also need to prepare for a business trip - at least you have "the jet" tomorrow and that saves you an hour or two driving and waiting. Another hour drive and you get home to find your wife and kids asleep. Rinse and repeat at 0500 the next morning. If you are really good, you just make do on 4 to 5 hours of sleep and only go for a full 8 the night before a trial.

Most of the people who work this hard make less than a Captain at NWA, or Delta. Get stock options and your results can differ.

It is just like flying, all the work that the outside world does not see fails to be appreciated by the masses who think the job is "easy." Truth is, a good professional just makes the impossible look easy.

Notice that most of the "suits" on board our flight have a hard time remaining awake for the safety demo. An "effective" manager in the real world (a start up, not a 75 year old legacy company) probably has not seen eight hours of sleep since his last vacation that he cut down to three days because work was piling up at the office.

Look...you're not management and neither am I. We're pilots. We have a rare opportunity here to have some control over our future during an unprecedented situation...

...for now.

Let's use that control wisely.

Peace.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We're pilots. We have a rare opportunity here to have some control over our future during an unprecedented situation...

...for now.

Let's use that control wisely.

Peace.

Absolutely agreed.

 

[Noserider76]

Heyas,

We'll certainly get to vote on any contract goodies, but if there is any kind of agreement, but I don't think EITHER pilot group will be permitted MEMRAT on the SLI....MECRAT only.

Nu

Straight from the reps...Memrat on contract/SLI package deal. All or nothing.

 

[PCL_128]

That's what you said last time and the board rumor turned out to be true

Actually, he was 100% right. He said they would be back to the table, and they were. You would be smart to listen to Occam. The man knows what's going on.

 

[jke406]

Actually, he was 100% right. He said they would be back to the table, and they were. You would be smart to listen to Occam. The man knows what's going on.

let me guess: Occam is one of your union "friends with privileges?"