NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[jetflier]

Things are very quiet here at NWA, too quiet. The MEC is not tipping its hat on any information from the NWALPA/DALALPA neg.

IMHO, DOH intergration of both seniority lists with a no bump, no flush seems to be a fair way to go.

If not then fences around the equipment be put into place until the most junior pilot on the property retires. Coincidentally, that was what the NWA/Republic merger arbitrated, called affectionately, "The Roberts Award". This ruling finally ended January of 2006.

Personally, I do not want to fly DAL equipment nor bid into any of their bases. All of the NWA pilots that I have talked with agree also feel the same way.

In fact, these pilots all agree that a merger is not wanted, and that NWA is in a very good financial shape right now and a merger with DAL may reverse that positive trend.

An arbitrated ruling on the seniority list intergration certainnally will bring more negatives than positives to the solution for both NWA and DAL.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Career Protection & Progression​

“Cross-Bidding” System ​

• • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
  • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet.
  • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (relative seniority, ratio., etc.)
  • Future new-hires would have their "system" number.

• Methodology
  • The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types.
  • When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence.
  • “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
  • In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots.
  • 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
• Benefits
  • Pilots have the choice, deciding when they want to use their "system" number to bid into new / growth aircraft.
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.
  -----------------------------------------

Someone sent this concept to me for our use and I think it is the best balance I've seen for base and seat protections which allow for unrestricted growth. This would reduce some, but not all, the pressure on the Merger Committees to resolve the intractable issues of seniority integration.

I can think of possible tweaks, like whether or not aircraft on order are included in each airline's allocation, or are open for future bidding with the combined system number.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Things are very quiet here at NWA, too quiet. The MEC is not tipping its hat on any information from the NWALPA/DALALPA neg.

Latest rumor is that the NWA and DAL MEC members met, but that there was insufficient movement to continue talks.

The DAL MEC is under pressure from its membership for having already given too much up.

 

[viper548]

That's the best and most fair idea I've heard yet

 

[~~~^~~~]

Viper:

Thanks. This idea is free to a good home. Anyone can claim it, make it their own and try to get it up to the people who are negotiating.

 

[viper548]

I don't work for either company (yet), I hope this idea can make it to the unions for consideration

 

[iaflyer]

Can someone explain what "no bump, no flush" means? I've heard the terms thrown around but don't understand what they mean.

 

[vortilon-x]

Having had a look at the 'cross bidding system', I must say that looks quite good to me. I was working once for an airline which was merged and such a solution was never presented to us...The stronger union simply won the case.

 

[viper548]

Can someone explain what "no bump, no flush" means? I've heard the terms thrown around but don't understand what they mean.

Suppose it was a DOH merger and the number 1 DL guy wants to fly the 747. He would bump the most junior 747 guy out of his position

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Call your reps. They will share info with you, but only over the phone or in person. Nothing in print. As always they will not comment on current negotiations. IE SLI.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Latest rumor is that the NWA and DAL MEC members met, but that there was insufficient movement to continue talks.

Bad rumor.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That's what you said last time and the board rumor turned out to be true.... Should I re-phrase and Say the meetings happened and the NWA side did not make sufficient movement to keep those involved in the talks substantially engaged?

In the mean time, as rumors of the concessionary position the Delta Reps offered seem to be confirmed, the pressure is mounting on the Delta side to not be as accommodating. Every pilot who has brought the subject up plans on voting against "relative seniority." (which was the position of their own reps)

(Based on comments from line pilots) If there is some middle of the road meeting of the minds, the Delta pilots are not going to vote for it. With an equity pay out weighted towards the senior side of the list, it is certain to be unpopular....

In the interest of our profession I hope that ALPA can make this transaction work for its membership. This thing is perilously close to being USAPA version 2.0.

Regardless, this merger could very well be this pilot's exit from 121 flying.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's what you said last time and the board rumor turned out to be true.... Should I re-phrase and Say the meetings happened and the NWA side did not make sufficient movement to keep those involved in the talks substantially engaged?

In the mean time, as rumors of the concessionary position the Delta Reps offered seem to be confirmed, the pressure is mounting on the Delta side to not be as accommodating. Every pilot who has brought the subject up plans on voting against "relative seniority." (which was the position of their own reps)

If there is some middle of the road meeting of the minds, the Delta pilots are not going to vote for it. With an equity pay out weighted towards the senior side of the list, it is certain to be unpopular....

I stand to lose a lot in this merger and will likely resign once the details are confirmed. None the less, in the interest of our profession I hope that ALPA can make this transaction work for its membership. This thing is perilously close to being USAPA version 2.0.

Are you serious? Why?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Actually, last time he stated that the rumor that they/we had walked away for good was false. Or the the deal was dead.
Read every word he says. The devil is in the detail.

 

[Superpilot92]

That's what you said last time and the board rumor turned out to be true.... Should I re-phrase and Say the meetings happened and the NWA side did not make sufficient movement to keep those involved in the talks substantially engaged?

In the mean time, as rumors of the concessionary position the Delta Reps offered seem to be confirmed, the pressure is mounting on the Delta side to not be as accommodating. Every pilot who has brought the subject up plans on voting against "relative seniority." (which was the position of their own reps)

If there is some middle of the road meeting of the minds, the Delta pilots are not going to vote for it. With an equity pay out weighted towards the senior side of the list, it is certain to be unpopular....

I stand to lose a lot in this merger and will likely resign once the details are confirmed. None the less, in the interest of our profession I hope that ALPA can make this transaction work for its membership. This thing is perilously close to being USAPA version 2.0.

I bet you dont

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Joe,
Fin as with many that have to look up at a 11,000+ seniority list, has a lot to weigh. If you are in your 40's and less than 1500 pilots from the bottom, the prospects of a upgrade equating to a decent QOL get less and less.
Each person has to weigh that. As we all know it isn't what it used to be. 80-100K is not bad, but it is not what many have see nor signed on for, especially for people who will be affected by a merger as well as the age 65 implementation.

 

[Superpilot92]

I think you're right. You DAL guys should resign, its just not worth it

 

[viper548]

Question for NW guys: How far from the bottom of the seniority list is the most junior DC-9 CA?

 

[Superpilot92]

Question for NW guys: How far from the bottom of the seniority list is the most junior DC-9 CA?

last i looked it was about a 1000 from the bottom. So 4200ish out of 5200ish.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,
Fin as with many that have to look up at a 11,000+ seniority list, has a lot to weigh. If you are in your 40's and less than 1500 pilots from the bottom, the prospects of a upgrade equating to a decent QOL get less and less.
Each person has to weigh that. As we all know it isn't what it used to be. 80-100K is not bad, but it is not what many have see nor signed on for, especially for people who will be affected by a merger as well as the age 65 implementation.

I understand that completely.....that is why I have chosen to stay at the top of the list here at ASA.....The view looks better to me from here than it does at the bottom of the Delta list....

The bottom of a legacy list looks a little scary right now.....