NJ Recalls

[gunfyter]

Don't show off that Spanish lingo with me bud.

I thought he was quoting The Fonz

 

[G4dude]

I thought he was quoting The Fonz

Gutshot is way too intellectual to quote the Fonz.

 

[G4dude]

Hahahaha! Hey G4, Family Guy thinks we still primarily fly international.

How is the dust on your passport?

Um, no. The company is pushing as many international trips as they can onto the Global fleet to try and get G owners to buy shares in the bloody thing. The Gulfstreams get the occasional international trip but mostly it's the "Gee, we're sorry your airplane broke and you took a four hour delay, how about a ride in a Gulfstream and aren't you happy now?" airplane.

Ha! However, the last 6 months I HAVE lived overseas. Go figure.

 

[johnsonrod]

Hahahaha! Hey G4, Family Guy thinks we still primarily fly international.

How is the dust on your passport?

Um, no. The company is pushing as many international trips as they can onto the Global fleet to try and get G owners to buy shares in the bloody thing. The Gulfstreams get the occasional international trip but mostly it's the "Gee, we're sorry your airplane broke and you took a four hour delay, how about a ride in a Gulfstream and aren't you happy now?" airplane.

Although I understand why you guys want to stay in the mighty Gulfstreams, isn't the plan that the Gulfstream pilots will ultimately transition over to the Globals and new 650s as the Gulfstreams depart? No former NJI pilots will be flying the Phenom or XLS - right?

 

[realityman]

Although I understand why you guys want to stay in the mighty Gulfstreams, isn't the plan that the Gulfstream pilots will ultimately transition over to the Globals and new 650s as the Gulfstreams depart? No former NJI pilots will be flying the Phenom or XLS - right?

I believe this is the plan. However, the way the displacement rules are written they can only displace pilots as airframes go away.

Apparently, they're having trouble getting rid of our old, technologically outdated high-time Gulfstreams. So as Global and Challenger deliveries progress, we may see a lot of open bids for those planes. It's possible some Gulfstream pilots may end up in the smaller fleets.

Also, although I take it with a grain of salt, I talked to the chief pilot of the GLC fleet and he says that due to a large number of current and impending retirements from pilots in the GLC fleet, they may actually need to have a class or two for pilots in the Gulfstreams. We'll see what happens with that.

Anyway, there is hope for us "small" plane drivers.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Gutshot is way too intellectual to quote the Fonz.

Actually, it's from Demolition Man....

NOT so intellectual.



And Dude, it's NOT about cost. It's about VALUE. Last weekend, I had an owner tell me and 11 other pilots on the picket line in Henderson that he and many of his friends who are also owners are more than willing to pay MORE to fly with us. He said "We know YOU GUYS make this place go. We love you and support you."

The company is delivering less value with more cost. That IS NOT the fault of the pilots, the flight attendants, the dispatchers, the mechanics, or the crew services people. It IS the fault of Jordan Hansell and the rest of the EMT.

A well-compensated, well-supported and VALUED employee group that is EMPOWERED to deliver world class service will deliver the VALUE that the owners demand. Happy employees equals happy customers equals higher profits.

It ain't rocket science but our CEO hasn't the first clue about what motivates employees or the consumers of a luxury service product.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Although I understand why you guys want to stay in the mighty Gulfstreams, isn't the plan that the Gulfstream pilots will ultimately transition over to the Globals and new 650s as the Gulfstreams depart? No former NJI pilots will be flying the Phenom or XLS - right?

I have no idea what the brain trust wants. All I know is I really DON'T want to fly the Global or the CL605/650. Since the Gulfstream fleet phase out has been pushed to at LEAST 2022, I'm not even starting to worry about what fleet comes next.

I AM worried about the management team of this company destroying what's left long before I have to worry about it.

 

[pilotyip]

I AM worried about the management team of this company destroying what's left long before I have to worry about it.

So you would be happy with a continuation of the status quo contract?

 

[gutshotdraw]

So you would be happy with a continuation of the status quo contract?

Nope. I'm taking a 4 percent pay cut every year because the people that negotiated this one failed to include COLA. That alone causes me to demand a substantial pay INCREASE just to get back to where I would have been without the pay freeze since Nov 2010.

Management status quo virtually guarantees the slow death of the brand.

Step 1: A new CEO

Nothing else matters until Step 1 is acheived.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Nope. I'm taking a 4 percent pay cut every year because the people that negotiated this one failed to include COLA. That alone causes me to demand a substantial pay INCREASE just to get back to where I would have been without the pay freeze since Nov 2010.



Management status quo virtually guarantees the slow death of the brand.



Step 1: A new CEO



Nothing else matters until Step 1 is acheived.

Step one won't happen for a long time. WB does not see it the same way as the Pilot group does. He is making money and could not care less about the Labor situation at this point. Doubt he will give in to labor demands as it would set a precedence.

I assume the pay cut you speak to is a loss of buying power per year. What data are you using to get 4%? The government CPI for 2014 it takes $1.15 to buy what $1.00 did in 2007. That is less than 4% per year.

Doesn't individual NJA pay increase at 3.5% per year?

 

[gunfyter]

He is using the REAL inflation numbers ... not the shaked and baked government provided numbers

Shadow Government Statistics
Analysis Behind and Beyond Government Economic Reporting


http://www.shadowstats.com/inflatio...1000&y1=2007&m1=10&y2=2014&m2=9&calc=Find+Out

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

He is using the REAL inflation numbers ... not the shaked and baked government provided numbers



Shadow Government Statistics

Analysis Behind and Beyond Government Economic Reporting





http://www.shadowstats.com/inflatio...1000&y1=2007&m1=10&y2=2014&m2=9&calc=Find+Out

That is going to beg a whole another debate about stats and indices. Not saying the impact is not real. It just needs to be proven to the opposition and mediator if it gets to that point.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Doesn't individual NJA pay increase at 3.5% per year?

Hahaha! Funny guy.

Oh, wait. I think you're serious. NO. My pay has been FROZEN since integration in November of 2010. No overtime. No holiday pay. No penalty day for after midnights. Zip. Zero. Nada.

Meanwhile, my real purchasing power has declined roughly 4 percent, per year, since integration. It's going to take a serious raise, in addition to a number of other things, to get me to say yes to a new contract.

 

[pilotyip]

Nope. I'm taking a 4 percent pay cut every year because the people that negotiated this one failed to include COLA. That alone causes me to demand a substantial pay INCREASE just to get back to where I would have been without the pay freeze since Nov 2010.

Management status quo virtually guarantees the slow death of the brand.

Step 1: A new CEO

Nothing else matters until Step 1 is acheived.

You mean the NJ guys don't get a 4-5% bump in Pay every year? The guy at JUS do

 

[Pervis]

You mean the NJ guys don't get a 4-5% bump in Pay every year? The guy at JUS do

No we don't. At the start of year 14 for captains, the final longevity bump occurs. The next increase is 4% of year 14 pay at the completion of year 15-2 years later. The 4% continues, based upon the final year 14 pay. Stagnation from then on without COLA.

 

[acaTerry]

You mean the NJ guys don't get a 4-5% bump in Pay every year? The guy at JUS do

FOs max out at year 10. I can work here 20 more years and I will never see a penny more. No more longevity, no COLA....nothing.

 

[acaTerry]

I just feel if we get a big raise, we won't be able to compete.

NJA has never been about competing. We are about leading. We didn't get to be the leader by following everyone else to the bottom...we made a higher standard. When you lower yourself to meet those below you (really----no offense at any other carriers here), you have had it. You have have loaded your own suicide bullet.

 

[T-1GUY]

G4 what is a big raise to you? Do you support cost of living raises or are you ok with inflation eating your buying power away? The company seems to think cola protection is important enough to include it in their contracts with our customers.

 

[gutshotdraw]

G4 what is a big raise to you? Do you support cost of living raises or are you ok with inflation eating your buying power away? The company seems to think cola protection is important enough to include it in their contracts with our customers.

Ding! Winner, winner. Chicken dinner.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Hahaha! Funny guy.

Oh, wait. I think you're serious. NO. My pay has been FROZEN since integration in November of 2010. No overtime. No holiday pay. No penalty day for after midnights. Zip. Zero. Nada.

Meanwhile, my real purchasing power has declined roughly 4 percent, per year, since integration. It's going to take a serious raise, in addition to a number of other things, to get me to say yes to a new contract.

Please read the 2007 CBA NJA Pay Tables like I stated and you quoted/laughed at (I did not state NJI/GLC salaries). The NJA CBA salaries in point of fact increase for NJA pilots at a rate of 3.5% per year until they cap out a year 14 at which time, as was mentioned a $4,000 bonus is paid. Longevity or COLA - that is up to the interpreter of the table as it is not reflected in the labels of the tables.

A better point to be made is that a pilot who makes Capt at 10 years of service in 2007 had more buying power for the same numerical salary of a Capt at 10 years of service in 2014 because the salaries are the same number. That is a problem since a 10 year Captain is worth the same relative to the economy, no matter when he achieves it and therefore there needs to be COLA specifically listed in the salary process. Longevity needs to be separately included too.

In 2007, the pay tables were negotiated between the IBT1108 President and the President of the Company, outside the ongoing negotiation process. It was handed over as part of the take it or leave it deal.

Since you are GLC formally known as NJI, your actually salary for years of service is known to very few in the union since it is different for most everyone who came over from there. I am sure there are a lot of NJA pilots who would like to know that data. Additionally, don't you get a true up at the end of each year for beyond the previous salary built in NJI norm for OT, holiday pay, and extended days and after midnights?

 

[jonjuan]

NJA has never been about competing. We are about leading. We didn't get to be the leader by following everyone else to the bottom...we made a higher standard. When you lower yourself to meet those below you (really----no offense at any other carriers here), you have had it. You have have loaded your own suicide bullet.

If you don't think you have to compete in the marketplace, I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[T-1GUY]

Do you really not get his point? People are willing to pay a premium for a premium service. Someone sets the standard, while others are cheap imitations. Just ask Rolex how that has worked out for them. On another note, a thirty percent increase in pilot salaries does not equate to a thirty percent increase in expenses. Netjets will continue to be a healthy profitable company. The question is how much money goes to Warren's shareholders and how much goes into the pockets of the workers. That percentage split favors the shareholders every year that the workers are locked into 2007 rates. It is time for a reset to fairness and a more equitable split.

 

[Willy21]

To add to what Pervis said, the SICs top out at year 10 and don't get a 4% bump.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Please read the 2007 CBA NJA Pay Tables like I stated and you quoted/laughed at (I did not state NJI/GLC salaries). The NJA CBA salaries in point of fact increase for NJA pilots at a rate of 3.5% per year until they cap out a year 14 at which time, as was mentioned a $4,000 bonus is paid. Longevity or COLA - that is up to the interpreter of the table as it is not reflected in the labels of the tables.

A better point to be made is that a pilot who makes Capt at 10 years of service in 2007 had more buying power for the same numerical salary of a Capt at 10 years of service in 2014 because the salaries are the same number. That is a problem since a 10 year Captain is worth the same relative to the economy, no matter when he achieves it and therefore there needs to be COLA specifically listed in the salary process. Longevity needs to be separately included too.

In 2007, the pay tables were negotiated between the IBT1108 President and the President of the Company, outside the ongoing negotiation process. It was handed over as part of the take it or leave it deal.

Since you are GLC formally known as NJI, your actually salary for years of service is known to very few in the union since it is different for most everyone who came over from there. I am sure there are a lot of NJA pilots who would like to know that data. Additionally, don't you get a true up at the end of each year for beyond the previous salary built in NJI norm for OT, holiday pay, and extended days and after midnights?

I think you confused $4,000 with 4%. And it's non-compounding. So no, there is no COLA in this contract and there should have been. Yes, I'm familiar with how that little deal was struck and what the reward was for screwing the pilot group.

And no, at my seniority level I don't receive a true up.

 

[jonjuan]

Do you really not get his point? People are willing to pay a premium for a premium service. Someone sets the standard, while others are cheap imitations. Just ask Rolex how that has worked out for them. On another note, a thirty percent increase in pilot salaries does not equate to a thirty percent increase in expenses. Netjets will continue to be a healthy profitable company. The question is how much money goes to Warren's shareholders and how much goes into the pockets of the workers. That percentage split favors the shareholders every year that the workers are locked into 2007 rates. It is time for a reset to fairness and a more equitable split.

Well, apparently nj got rid of the "Rolex" in favor of the "cheap imitation." In turn, its inferior competitor Flexjet just bought dozens of Rolexes.
You can't have it both ways.

 

[T-1GUY]

And who made that decision both in service and product. It wasn't the pilots. It wasn't the flight attendants. It wasn't the mechanics. Etc. This is why Jordan Hansell "The accidental CEO" has to go.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

I think you confused $4,000 with 4%. And it's non-compounding. So no, there is no COLA in this contract and there should have been. Yes, I'm familiar with how that little deal was struck and what the reward was for screwing the pilot group.

And no, at my seniority level I don't receive a true up.

My mistake. You are correct. It is 4% on $136,846 (on 7-7) which is $5,343 annual bonus.

 

[realityman]

Do you really not get his point? People are willing to pay a premium for a premium service. Someone sets the standard, while others are cheap imitations. Just ask Rolex how that has worked out for them. On another note, a thirty percent increase in pilot salaries does not equate to a thirty percent increase in expenses. Netjets will continue to be a healthy profitable company. The question is how much money goes to Warren's shareholders and how much goes into the pockets of the workers. That percentage split favors the shareholders every year that the workers are locked into 2007 rates. It is time for a reset to fairness and a more equitable split.

This is exactly right!

For example, I think I heard pilot compensation makes up 5% of the company's expenses. Okay, so if you doubled pilot compensation, which is a 100% increase to pilot salaries, you've made pilot compensation something closer to 10% of company expenses. It's not a 100% increase in operating expenses for the company by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm not saying we'll get that, just using it as an example. If we got a 50% increase in compensation, our share of company operating expenses goes from 5% to 7.5%.

Yeah, that may cut into company profitability a little, but it's not the end of Netjets.

And they could easily pass those increases along to our clients to cover it. We're not about huge increases here (for the clients). For those worried about what the clients will pay, well, they're ALREADY paying significantly more to be with Netjets over anyone else. Something along the lines of 35% more, and they're still buying. If we ended up being 36% or 37% more, I just don't see a mass exodus of the wealthy from Netjets.

As others (and myself) have mentioned, if they do leave, it isn't because the pilots are making more. It's because they aren't getting what they were promised, and that is not the union's fault. If the end is coming for Netjets, I'd rather get a sizable increase in pay now so i can save more money for when it happens, than go out with less. If the company is doomed by the small increase in cost it would take to cover a large increase in pay for us, then it was doomed anyway.

 

[Willy21]

Let's not forget that the EMT has been collecting COLA on management fees since 2008. How much of that have you seen?

 

[G4dude]

NJA has never been about competing. We are about leading. We didn't get to be the leader by following everyone else to the bottom...we made a higher standard. When you lower yourself to meet those below you (really----no offense at any other carriers here), you have had it. You have have loaded your own suicide bullet.

With ALL due respect, that is exactly what UAL and Delta pilots said several years ago when they were paid so much both companies almost went kaput.
It is rationalizing exorbitantly high pay.