NJ Recalls

[pilotyip]

It doesn't matter to him. He has already lived his dream, landing on boats and doing "neat" things with a wife who supported him throughout...:0

He is the archetype of the big fish in a small pond...afraid to go for a swim in a bigger ocean or worse...if he can't have it, no one should.

Your funny, you know I have played in all the big Oceans' N Atlantic, N & S Pacific, Indian. Even awarded the title of "Trusty Shell-back".

NJ is a good job, I turned it down because I could not take the pay cut, pay not that good in 1999. If I worked there now my biggest worry would be somebody screwing up a really good deal of a job. May you boat never sink in your bigger ocean.

 

[BentOver]

Lemme ask ya this YIP... What is your constant concern with NJA and it's Union... Or any good company and it's Union?

Seems to me if ya were so happy and content at your non-Union night freight gig you wouldn't give a crap about the fractional

 

[pilotyip]

Hey YIP,

Have ya ever noticed that pretty much ALL the companies considered to be the elite jobs (DL, UPS, FDX, NJA, SWA etc) are Union jobs... Gee wonder why that is.....
Take a look at the benefits where you are, and then take a look at the benefits of pilots at NJA, Delta, SWA etc... Who do you think has a better life at work?

This board is very pro-union. I don't think that I am that rabidly anti-union, but more middle of the road, some places need a union. The rabid union supporters stand on a platform that unions can do no harm. I just happen to not agree with that stance and it is my duty to point out the other side. Unions have the ability to destroy marginal companies.

When an airline gets to a certain size it almost needs a union in order for once voice to represent the pilots as opposed to individual splinter groups with their own agendas.

Pay and union representation as you posted do not necessarily go together. Fedex ALPA, flies 727, great pay, best in the business, Kitty Hawk ALPA, used to fly 727‘s, pay equal to JUS, plus they are out of business.

But immersed in this population, I stand out because I am not 100% pro-union and 100% anti-management. After about my fourth job, my main concern was the viability of my company and anything I could do make them more viable was my primary goal.

There are two sides to every story, both sides need to be told.

 

[BentOver]

I've got a news flash for you... The large majority of professional aviation is Union (atleast the professionals that can earn a good living).. So if this board seems pro Union it's because it represents a majority of the professionals in the business.

There is not an overabundance of Union raticals here.. In fact there seems to be very few.. what we do have is a select few like yourself that turn every thread into a soab box as to why Unions are ruining business.. Which in turn leads us into debates and name calling. Mostly because guys like G4 attempt to completely undermine every other pilot he works with and what they are trying to accomplish. Then again, free country blah blah, so you of course are entitled to your opinion and thread drift.

Take for example this thread about NJA recalls... I'm not going to read the whole thing to verify, but where in "NJA recalls" do we turn from that to Unions are ruining companies in aviation? I'm no Union die hard, but I do believe they are necessary in aviation.. There are just too many ways a pilot can get screwed without one.

 

[BentOver]

Pay and union representation as you posted do not necessarily go together. Fedex ALPA, flies 727, great pay, best in the business, Kitty Hawk ALPA, used to fly 727‘s, pay equal to JUS, plus they are out of business. Again, take a look at the management decisions and business plan. FedEx started by a Yale boy who wrote the model for a class. Professor gave him a poor grade, he kept the theory and eventually applied it. Adapted as necessary and ultimately survived... There are reasons that places like Southern Air furlough every other quarter. Poor planning, poor business decisions and poor execution. It sure ain't the pilots pay.

But immersed in this population, I stand out because I am not 100% pro-union and 100% anti-management. After about my fourth job, my main concern was the viability of my company and anything I could do make them more viable was my primary goal. I'm on my 6th job in 12 years.. After all that I still believe that a companies viability is important. But I'm not about to take it in the rear to make it happen. I view your rational as weak and scared.

There are two sides to every story, both sides need to be told.

.....

 

[OHGOON]

Your funny, you know I have played in all the big Oceans' N Atlantic, N & S Pacific, Indian. Even awarded the title of "Trusty Shell-back".

NJ is a good job, I turned it down because I could not take the pay cut, pay not that good in 1999. If I worked there now my biggest worry would be somebody screwing up a really good deal of a job. May you boat never sink in your bigger ocean.

Nice deflection, but I stand by what I posted. You have delusions of grandeur that you can somehow affect how a company is profitable by your behavior. The fact that you insult every pro union pilot by implying that all they want to do is hurt management never crosses your mind? Ever think that they are equally invested in making their job last as long as possible? The difference is that most pro union pilots firmly realize that by themselves they are vulnerable and only by working together in an organized group can they speak truth to management without automatically risking their livelihoods.

As far as you swimming in all great oceans, you know damn well what I meant! Enjoy your senior position, lickspitling your way into the good graces of your management hoping that one day they will recognize your superior talents and make you one of their own. Keep dreaming... they see you coming a mile away and they are laughing at you while using you for their own purposes. Big Fish in a little pond....

 

[pilotyip]

The difference is that most pro union pilots firmly realize that by themselves they are vulnerable and only by working together in an organized group can they speak truth to management without automatically risking their livelihoods.

That is not what I read in many of the posts here, I see under paid, over worked and we will shut the place down if we don't get our way. The message that managment needs to be taught a lesson on who really runs the company.

Anyone who does not go rah! rah!, is somehow a lessor human being.

BTW I started this thread based upon running across a NJ crew a Farmingham in January. I was flying with furloughed NJ pilot and we started talking about possible NJ recalls, The NJ crew said they had heard maybe this year. My NJ buddy who is not a FI member asked me to pose the question on a public site. A lot of good info came from that post. However thread drift has completely moved this tread from it original intent. Typical FI stuff, people with smaller minds who can not stand anyone who does not agree with them resort to personal attacks. Problably because somewherein the bottom of thier minds dwells this fear, OMG I might end up like yip and the other NJ piltos working with him some day.

 

[G4dude]

That is not what I read in many of the posts here, I see under paid, over worked and we will shut the place down if we don't get our way. The message that managment needs to be taught a lesson on who really runs the company.

Anyone who does not go rah! rah!, is somehow a lessor human being.

BTW I started this thread based upon running across a NJ crew a Farmingham in January. I was flying with furloughed NJ pilot and we started talking about possible NJ recalls, The NJ crew said they had heard maybe this year. My NJ buddy who is not a FI member asked me to pose the question on a public site. A lot of good info came from that post. However thread drift has completely moved this tread from it original intent. Typical FI stuff, people with smaller minds who can not stand anyone who does not agree with them resort to personal attacks. Problably because somewherein the bottom of thier minds dwells this fear, OMG I might end up like yip and the other NJ piltos working with him some day.

They think we are not union fans because we don't care about our fellow pilots. Pathetic. because they think this, the personal attacks make sense to them. We are mean, evil people who deserve ad hominem attacks. The Left has been doing this for more than a century. Might as well get used to it, or get off this otherwise marvelous board. By the way, the reason there are so few anti union pilots here is the way we are treated when we post our opinions. I have had a LOTof colleagues express amazement that I subject myself to this crap. Colleagues who agree with me.

 

[jetlag7]

They think we are not union fans because we don't care about our fellow pilots. Pathetic. because they think this, the personal attacks make sense to them. We are mean, evil people who deserve ad hominem attacks. The Left has been doing this for more than a century. Might as well get used to it, or get off this otherwise marvelous board. By the way, the reason there are so few anti union pilots here is the way we are treated when we post our opinions. I have had a LOTof colleagues express amazement that I subject myself to this crap. Colleagues who agree with me.

Actually, I've been enjoying the wave of rather civil discussions that have been flowing through most of the threads as of late.

There have been disagreements, but lately none have stooped to the typical "third-grade playground" behavior we've come to expect on FI....

 

[gret]

Just wait...you won't be disappointed.

 

[G4dude]

Actually, I've been enjoying the wave of rather civil discussions that have been flowing through most of the threads as of late.

There have been disagreements, but lately none have stooped to the typical "third-grade playground" behavior we've come to expect on FI....

You are right! And it has been much appreciated.

 

[imacdog]

I am not sure how you get to pass judgment on what is mediocre. I don't consider the upper 5% of U.S wage earners as mediocre and to be paid that to do something I love to do, something I can't wait to get out of bed in the morning to do. I am truly blessed to be so lucky.

As stated before I got to live my childhood dream of being a Navy pilot, anything beyond that is well mediocre. I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do. The guys who make it to the FedEx, SWA, NJ level are very fortunate to be where they are, but there is an element of luck and timing that has nothing to do with their skill or desire.

Take a look at what you make, then take a look at what the pilots at the top unionized carriers make. The groups who bargained for their payscales because they knew they were worth it. The ones who did rock the boat, unafraid that a pay raise would cause their company to go out of business. That's where you'll find the definition of mediocre, because of your fear of what a pay raise might do for your company, and why you and your pilots aren't making what they could be making.

 

[OHGOON]

That is not what I read in many of the posts here, I see under paid, over worked and we will shut the place down if we don't get our way. The message that managment needs to be taught a lesson on who really runs the company.

Anyone who does not go rah! rah!, is somehow a lessor human being.

Most of us in this profession are underpaid and overworked. We are professionals with years invested in our skills and experience and yet most of us slave away in sub par jobs just to keep current hoping for greener pastures. There are many flying companies whose whole business model depends on cheap and readily exploitable pilots. I am sure if you look around a little you will see what I just described. No one wants to shut down their place of work, but when you are being put between a rock and a hard place by unbelievable greed and shortsightedness on the part of management what are you to do? Keep your head down and pray the storm will pass or are you going to stand up and refuse to be party to the corruption? Problem is, that when you do this on your own, you are more than likely going to loose your job over it unless you have the strength of an organized pilot group behind you.

Secondly, I have never met anyone who was involved in Union business who ever thought they were running the company. That is just anti union rhetoric designed to inflame things. It is not based on reality. Unions represent labor, they are not angling to be shadow managers.

Thirdly, I can't really help you with feelings of being less than others just because you perceive quite correctly that your particular take on Unionism is not always being welcomed with open arms.

 

[Danny040]

All furlough longevity pay is going to be negotiated away. Every current member is going to swear they voted no. Its going to be so fun knowing Im in a crammed cockpit with someone that negotiated me to 4 yr Fo pay rather than 10 yr while showing me pictures of your boat and 3rd wife. I'm not gonna hold my farts in that cockpit.

 

[jetlag7]

All furlough longevity pay is going to be negotiated away. Every current member is going to swear they voted no. Its going to be so fun knowing Im in a crammed cockpit with someone that negotiated me to 4 yr Fo pay rather than 10 yr while showing me pictures of your boat and 3rd wife. I'm not gonna hold my farts in that cockpit.

Where do ya'll get these bizarre ideas?

Have some faith my friend.

 

[CA1900]

Where do ya'll get these bizarre ideas?

Have some faith my friend.

Indeed. I have not heard (or read) one single pilot suggesting that. I certainly would never support abrogating someone's seniority or recall rights as part of a new contract. Our furloughed pilots are still part of this company until the day they resign, and should be treated as such.

 

[OPECJet]

Where do ya'll get these bizarre ideas?

Have some faith my friend.

Indeed. I have not heard (or read) one single pilot suggesting that. I certainly would never support abrogating someone's seniority or recall rights as part of a new contract. Our furloughed pilots are still part of this company until the day they resign, and should be treated as such.

NJASAP has done a stellar job in creating a divide between active and furloughed pilots. It started on 01/16/10 at 0001 Eastern time. I was posting something in the crew lounge part of the message board and finished the post about 1 minute after that. It wouldn't post and the only forum I had available was the furloughed board. NJASAP flipped the switch at the stroke of midnight.

On the flip side, company email worked for 4 more days as did access to the crewops website. The union shut us off immediately, the company waited 4 days.

Then there were the BS reasons thrown around by various eboard members as to why we got locked out. When you called them out on it, the truth came out every time. It's a trust issue and remains so to this day.

Given the union driven communication divide between active and furloughed pilots, lack of communications with us and past negotiating history if practically every other airline out there who has gone to Section 6 with furloughed pilots, we have every reason not to trust NJASAP.

It is not the pilots who will negotiate this upcoming contract. It's the negotiating team. I have no reason to think our unlimited recall rights and or continued longevity accrual won't get traded in order to maintain a current benefit to the active group, be it insurance premiums, crew food, higher per diem, different OT rules, or even extending the FO pay scale since there will probably never be another upgrade class at NJA. It will then be up to the pilot group to decide whether to accept it or not. Since we're not there to defend ourselves, it would likely pass.

When it comes down to it, each pilot voting on a TA asks himself "is this good for me?".

To both members whom I quoted, I genuinely appreciate your viewpoint on our furloughed group. I hope you are in the majority and I know there are more with the same thoughts. The truth of it is that there are several who don't share that thought when it comes down to their wallet. In all honesty, it's hard to blame them when the company is spouting 2017-18 for recalls and there are few faces and no voices to go along with those numbers.

 

[CA1900]

NJASAP has done a stellar job in creating a divide between active and furloughed pilots.

I don't disagree at all. I've been very vocal in my opposition to the segregation, and continue to be. Unfortunately they still haven't change their minds about it.

You're correct about the negotiating team, but they'll be doing it with input from the members. I'll make sure they know my thoughts, and hope more of the membership will also make that effort.

 

[imacdog]

I don't disagree at all. I've been very vocal in my opposition to the segregation, and continue to be. Unfortunately they still haven't change their minds about it.

You're correct about the negotiating team, but they'll be doing it with input from the members. I'll make sure they know my thoughts, and hope more of the membership will also make that effort.

Do you honestly believe the membership, when voting time comes, is going to look much beyond pay and days off in the TA?

 

[CA1900]

Do you honestly believe the membership, when voting time comes, is going to look much beyond pay and days off in the TA?

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but yes, I do.

After lots of folks got burned by all the little gotchas and omissions in the 05 and 07 contracts, I think they'll be a little more inclined to dig a little deeper. You'll always have a contingent that looks at nothing but those things, but I think that group will be smaller this time.