NJ Recalls

[OPECJet]

Airlines weren't forced into squat. They could have stalled negotiations almost indefinitely. No mediator was going to release a legacy carrier.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Not so much oil $25/brl 2000, $30/brl 2002. Airlines like GM were forced into contracts they knew they could not sustain. The first class passenger that was the back bone of their profit had been replaced by the internet price shopper. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity.

I know when we launched Independence Air oil was north of $85 per barrel. That was the same year UAL went BK. NWA and DAL were afterwards.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Back on topic I'm doubling down on recalls in 2015.

 

[pilotyip]

Airlines weren't forced into squat. They could have stalled negotiations almost indefinitely. No mediator was going to release a legacy carrier.

I am sure you truly believe that, and that is fine.

 

[pilotyip]

I know when we launched Independence Air oil was north of $85 per barrel. That was the same year UAL went BK. NWA and DAL were afterwards.

Not according to what I see here

2003​

January $29.44 July $27.39 February $32.13 August $28.33 March $30.26 September $25.14 April $25.22 October $27.07 May $23.61 November $27.66 June $27.23 December $28.83 2003 Average $27.69

didn't see $85 until late 2007

2007​

January $46.53 July $65.96 February $51.36 August $64.23 March $52.64 September $70.94 April $56.08 October $77.56 May $55.43 November $86.92 June $59.25 December $83-46 2007 Average $64.25

http://www.ioga.com/Special/crudeoil_Hist.htm check it out

 

[gunfyter]

A little thing called 911 didn't affect the airline biz did it?

That was the union's fault I guess

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Not according to what I see here

2003​

January $29.44 July $27.39 February $32.13 August $28.33 March $30.26 September $25.14 April $25.22 October $27.07 May $23.61 November $27.66 June $27.23 December $28.83 2003 Average $27.69

didn't see $85 until late 2007

2007​

January $46.53 July $65.96 February $51.36 August $64.23 March $52.64 September $70.94 April $56.08 October $77.56 May $55.43 November $86.92 June $59.25 December $83-46 2007 Average $64.25

http://www.ioga.com/Special/crudeoil_Hist.htm check it out

These might be monthly averages. I can distinctly remember KS & TM referencing $85 oil in 2005 when IDE declared BK. The labor contracts were not the underlying reasons for legacy airline Ch11s in the 2000s. That is patently false.

 

[imacdog]

I am sure you truly believe that, and that is fine.

So when was the last time it happened?

 

[OPECJet]

Those airlines willingly signed contracts they could afford at the time of signing. Lost revenue from 9/11, rising LCCs, higher operating costs, "shrink to profitability" etc were responsible for airline losses.

The RLA gives airline labor little recourse when management doesn't want to play. Those airlines could have drug negotiations out for years paying lip service to keep the job actions down. It's happened before.

 

[pilotyip]

Those airlines willingly signed contracts they could afford at the time of signing. Lost revenue from 9/11, rising LCCs, higher operating costs, "shrink to profitability" etc were responsible for airline losses.

The RLA gives airline labor little recourse when management doesn't want to play. Those airlines could have drug negotiations out for years paying lip service to keep the job actions down. It's happened before.

They could not put up with the pilot's tactics of cancelling flights due the second filament of the Lav in Use light being burn out, calling in sick, etc. It was driving pax away in droves. The contracts put them in a cost structure that was not sustainable. SWA, Airtran continued hiring after 9-1, why there cost structures that were sustainable. So go ahead push the NJ managment for industry leading compensation package, Oh! you already have one. After all what could go wrong.

BTW If things go south, JUS could be hiring send me a resume, your furloughees are doing just fine here..

A little thing called 911 didn't affect the airline biz did it?

That was the union's fault I guess

9-11 was the perfect storm, the recession had started about six months before, we saw our business levels drop significantly from the previous year, showing a slow down in manufacturing. Even before 9-11 airlines had started delaying class dates. How would I know this because some of our pilots ask to stay on after giving notice,. Then 9-11 pulled the rug out. The old airline model of living off the profit of the first class passenger was dead and the cost structure built around that model was an airline terminal disease. Maybe a little bit like the NJ model, only time will tell.

I agree with you in that you are worth what you negotiate. However, our difference is in who is doing the negotiating. If I and my employer negotiate, the result will satisfy both sides, no problem. When the union (and to be fair NJA's union is a pretty reasonable group) negotiates, it has the power collectively to inflict severe damage on the employer, sometimes resulting in compensation that is too high to be able to compete long term. In this case, the result of the negotiations is not satisfactory for both sides, as the company is just trying to stave off major damage threatened by the union. I hope NJASAP never bargains that hard.
I want to make a lot of money, but not if it beggars the company and the stockholders. if it does, we will lose our jobs, which is a bad thing.

This guy gets it.

BTWII I really do wish you the best, but I am reminded of my union days where the activists promised "more pay and more days off", until of course you had no pay and all your days off. I get real nervous about teasing the Tiger know as a job.

 

[imacdog]

BTWII I really do wish you the best, but I am reminded of my union days where the activists promised "more pay and more days off", until of course you had no pay and all your days off. I get real nervous about teasing the Tiger know as a job.

And that is why you have had a career of mediocre paying jobs.

 

[jetlag7]

At first blush, it would appear there are TWO schools of thought here. However, when you boil down all the arguments - you're left with pretty much the same objective....

We all want LONG and Prosperous careers.

The company will do everything they can to purchase our services for as little cost as possible. Our union negotiators will bargain for the best possible compensation package the company can afford.

The membership gets to decide what is acceptable with their vote.

 

[OPECJet]

They could not put up with the pilot's tactics of cancelling flights due the second filament of the Lav in Use light being burn out, calling in sick, etc. It was driving pax away in droves. The contracts put them in a cost structure that was not sustainable. SWA, Airtran continued hiring after 9-1, why there cost structures that were sustainable. So go ahead push the NJ managment for industry leading compensation package, Oh! you already have one. After all what could go wrong.

BTW If things go south, JUS could be hiring send me a resume, your furloughees are doing just fine here..



9-11 was the perfect storm, the recession had started about six months before, we saw our business levels drop significantly from the previous year, showing a slow down in manufacturing. Even before 9-11 airlines had started delaying class dates. How would I know this because some of our pilots ask to stay on after giving notice,. Then 9-11 pulled the rug out. The old airline model of living off the profit of the first class passenger was dead and the cost structure built around that model was an airline terminal disease. Maybe a little bit like the NJ model, only time will tell.


This guy gets it.

BTWII I really do wish you the best, but I am reminded of my union days where the activists promised "more pay and more days off", until of course you had no pay and all your days off. I get real nervous about teasing the Tiger know as a job.

I've been in the inner-workings of ALPA and have seen how it operates. National is not going to push for more than the airline can afford. The caveat being is the phrase "at the time". Markets change. What is affordable to an airline this month can be deadly the next. The reverse holds true as well. The preachings we received were to get as much as we could for our pilots, but always allow the airline to grow. Growth requires profit. None of us had any problem with management making astronomical sums of money as long as they were getting the job done. Hell, we wanted the highest paid management, we just wanted them to earn their money. If they're earning their money, it means the seniority list is growing, aircraft are being added, upgrades and hiring is occurring. All good things.

Job actions occur. Sometimes they're necessary. The RLA allows the company to remain under the status quo indefinitely. In many cases this is OK while the company and management work out a CBA. Then you have cases such as ASA, Republic, Pinnacle, NJA, etc where negotiations have stalled. The company needs a kick in the backside as a mediator isn't going to release them.

I'm glad to hear our furloughed guys have found a good place to be. I had 2 in my indoc class from JUS and both spoke highly of the place. I used to spend hours sitting on the Active Aero site bidding trips, and then hopping in an airplane if the bid was accepted. Fun times, but not something compatible with my current family life. The offer is genuinely appreciated, however.

 

[nordo_2]

Its called seeking the middle way. Problems arise when there is an imbalance. One extreme or the other. Management, if allowed unchecked will have us work 20 hour days, 30 days a month. Some are really bad. The exceptions are ok.

NJ has the extreme on the bad side of this scale. JH is in place to solely gut and/or destroy the CBA. In order to keep what they have, the union will have to re-act in kind.
Any improvements will require extraordinary confrontation. Once the new contract is finished, JH will move on.

 

[johnsonrod]

Any update on fleet replacements at Netjets?

Slightly different topic...


I recently saw one of your new Phenom 300s - pretty cool airplane. How many new Phenom 300s this year? What's the annual Phenom delivery rate look like?

Any idea which fleets will be replaced first - I assume the Encore and Beechjet fleets sooner than later.... Is the Phenom expected to basically replace those two fleets over time?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Slightly different topic...


I recently saw one of your new Phenom 300s - pretty cool airplane. How many new Phenom 300s this year? What's the annual Phenom delivery rate look like?

Any idea which fleets will be replaced first - I assume the Encore and Beechjet fleets sooner than later.... Is the Phenom expected to basically replace those two fleets over time?

A half dozen-ish

A dozen-ish

Yes



By all accounts, selling well. Global and Phenom are replacement aircraft. No net fleet expansion in '13.

 

[G4dude]

Its called seeking the middle way. Problems arise when there is an imbalance. One extreme or the other. Management, if allowed unchecked will have us work 20 hour days, 30 days a month. Some are really bad. The exceptions are ok.

NJ has the extreme on the bad side of this scale. JH is in place to solely gut and/or destroy the CBA. In order to keep what they have, the union will have to re-act in kind.
Any improvements will require extraordinary confrontation. Once the new contract is finished, JH will move on.

Extreme bad side of the scale? I beg to differ.

 

[pilotyip]

And that is why you have had a career of mediocre paying jobs.

I am not sure how you get to pass judgment on what is mediocre. I don't consider the upper 5% of U.S wage earners as mediocre and to be paid that to do something I love to do, something I can't wait to get out of bed in the morning to do. I am truly blessed to be so lucky.

As stated before I got to live my childhood dream of being a Navy pilot, anything beyond that is well mediocre. I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do. The guys who make it to the FedEx, SWA, NJ level are very fortunate to be where they are, but there is an element of luck and timing that has nothing to do with their skill or desire.

 

[BentOver]

Hey YIP,

Have ya ever noticed that pretty much ALL the companies considered to be the elite jobs (DL, UPS, FDX, NJA, SWA etc) are Union jobs... Gee wonder why that is.....

The companies typically have problems because they are mis-managed in some form or another NOT the Unions or pilot salaries...

You can blame post 9/11 on high fuel costs, and in turn the need to reduce pilot salaries, but then scratch your head and wonder how SWA prospered so well post 9/11, with not only the highest 737 salaries but pretty much the highest salaries overall besides FDX/UPS... If you haven't figured it out, one of the main reasons SWA prospered was because of sound management decisions. Particularly great fuel hedges.

NJA is a top tier company, with great work rules and a decent salary.. In this time of economic turmoil, the company is still finding a way to turn a profit... And that's with a rookie "leader" who can't sell a used car to Bill down the road.. AND A UNION...

Again, sorry you had a less than stellar experience with your Union at ZANTOP.. But then again, if paying it's employees was enough to put it out of business maybe it's management was the problem and NOT the Union. Your anti-Union rhetoric gets old when your same "proof" is either the UAW or your prior careers decisions... Look at all the top companies, look at their salaries, and look to see if a large majority of them are Unionized...

Unions in aviation are necessary. Otherwise we'd all be pulling 14 hr duty days 6 days a week with as much min rest as possible, be crossing multiple time zones with no relief, have to eat stale peanuts all day. Reserves would be abused more than they typically are, there would be no commuting clauses, terrible non-rev benefits and we'd all be paying for our own uniforms, Jepps, and be staying at the worst flea bag motels possible..

Take a look at the benefits where you are, and then take a look at the benefits of pilots at NJA, Delta, SWA etc... Who do you think has a better life at work?

 

[OHGOON]

Hey YIP,

Have ya ever noticed that pretty much ALL the companies considered to be the elite jobs (DL, UPS, FDX, NJA, SWA etc) are Union jobs... Gee wonder why that is.....

The companies typically have problems because they are mis-managed in some form or another NOT the Unions or pilot salaries...

You can blame post 9/11 on high fuel costs, and in turn the need to reduce pilot salaries, but then scratch your head and wonder how SWA prospered so well post 9/11, with not only the highest 737 salaries but pretty much the highest salaries overall besides FDX/UPS... If you haven't figured it out, one of the main reasons SWA prospered was because of sound management decisions. Particularly great fuel hedges.

NJA is a top tier company, with great work rules and a decent salary.. In this time of economic turmoil, the company is still finding a way to turn a profit... And that's with a rookie "leader" who can't sell a used car to Bill down the road.. AND A UNION...

Again, sorry you had a less than stellar experience with your Union at ZANTOP.. But then again, if paying it's employees was enough to put it out of business maybe it's management was the problem and NOT the Union. Your anti-Union rhetoric gets old when your same "proof" is either the UAW or your prior careers decisions... Look at all the top companies, look at their salaries, and look to see if a large majority of them are Unionized...

Unions in aviation are necessary. Otherwise we'd all be pulling 14 hr duty days 6 days a week with as much min rest as possible, be crossing multiple time zones with no relief, have to eat stale peanuts all day. Reserves would be abused more than they typically are, there would be no commuting clauses, terrible non-rev benefits and we'd all be paying for our own uniforms, Jepps, and be staying at the worst flea bag motels possible..

Take a look at the benefits where you are, and then take a look at the benefits of pilots at NJA, Delta, SWA etc... Who do you think has a better life at work?

It doesn't matter to him. He has already lived his dream, landing on boats and doing "neat" things with a wife who supported him throughout...:0

He is the archetype of the big fish in a small pond...afraid to go for a swim in a bigger ocean or worse...if he can't have it, no one should.